Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 33

Thread: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    496

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post
    If you are talking about CD player as a transport, I would have been with you exactly 6 months ago (before I upgraded from Squeezebox3 to squeezebox touch).
    I was really surprised with the difference in SQ,so I posted the question on slimdevices forum using the same logic in your post(data is data). I was told that I was not the only one who noticed this. I use to think the term "jitter" was overused in audio. Now I'm a believer No, I did not do a blind test, but the difference was noticeable enough for me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter ( I know you like to post the links :-))

    Now if you talk about DACs, that's a bigger conversation. Just talk to folks who own either Opp95 or Oppo 83SE. But I agree with you about room acoustics/treatment making the bigger difference.
    Placebo is a powerful thing... But seriously, it would be interesting to do the blind tests, and then if there is really an audible difference (demonstrated by statistically being able to differentiate both units), then compare both unit's output.

    Thing to note, the squeezebox is a wireless device so the amount of jitter might be exponentially more than a regular DVD player or DAC... Or there might be some other factor which might influence the results...

    As I said, all blind tests I've seen seem to indicate that there's no difference to be heard. That's worth dozens of articles on jitter and dozens of folks who claim they can hear the difference...

    Axiom portable DVD player vs Mark Levinson No39
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...G5Zy7ieQMKiWHQ

    Digital reader Einstein Last Record Player ($ 4,500) vs Laptop + m-audio sound card
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...XkRHihE91NFe7g

    Pioneer DVD player vs 12000 Euro Oracle player
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...MYHiu-NuhlDhWQ

    Sony DVD Player DVP vs Wadia 6, 20-bit VRDS
    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...BlOVbSOJX48FAA

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...UnXJ4piq1XwQIw

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...cPLGl-uGZKsltA

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...C6AIsibz2WK8HA

    http://translate.googleusercontent.c...iS780nKUI-HyeA

    I can sum up the results of all the above tests with 2 words: "no differences". So jitter doesn't seem to make an audible difference, not saying it doesn't exist or doesn't have a measurable (yet inaudible it seems) effect, but people couldn't tell the cheapo DVD players apart from the uber ridiculously expensive overkill cd players out there... Food for thought? Jitter me this...

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    On the topic of cheap blu ray players that of course also play CDs, I have recently switched over all my DVD players to various Sony S series blu ray players. Most recently I found a deal on the S380 at Dell for $110. (Now expired.) I also picked up the S370 and S470 on clearance from Amazon for under $100.
    http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S370-.../dp/B0036WS4CA
    They seem excellent for the price, play blu rays of course, but also CDs and SACDs. The Netflix interface is rudimentary, but I like that they have Hulu Plus, Pandora etc. If you have a wired ethernet connection, these are very good units for the price.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    236

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Quote Originally Posted by ruckusdad View Post
    On the topic of cheap blu ray players that of course also play CDs, I have recently switched over all my DVD players to various Sony S series blu ray players. Most recently I found a deal on the S380 at Dell for $110. (Now expired.) I also picked up the S370 and S470 on clearance from Amazon for under $100.
    http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S370-.../dp/B0036WS4CA
    They seem excellent for the price, play blu rays of course, but also CDs and SACDs. The Netflix interface is rudimentary, but I like that they have Hulu Plus, Pandora etc. If you have a wired ethernet connection, these are very good units for the price.
    This should be really good if you do not care about wireless capabilities and 3D playback on blu ray. I'm planning to pick one myself to replace an aging dvd/cd player in the bedroom.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Update folks! I don't need a new cd player. Remember I said in first post I only listened for 10-15 minutes. It was also all on one cd. Cross Canadian Ragweeds Garage. Still love the music, but that is one HOT recorded CD. Yesterday evening I talked my wife into taking my son to soccer practice so I could spend some time. I got out some cd's that I remembered sounding really good with the cbm-170's. Won't list them all but a couple were Allison Moorer's Mockingbird, and Allman Brothers' Live at the Beacon. Both are outstanding recordings and also vastly different. Mockingbird has a lot of acoustic guitar and is very dynamic. These speakers resolved lots of things I had never heard before. One that stood out was the sound of her lips actually opening to sing. I listened to the whole cd and never heard one harsh sound. Live at the Beacon was recorded March 25th and 26th of 2003 during their annual run there. This was actually the last cd I put on and only got to listen to disc 2. First wow was the amount of bass output. I won't be using my Hsu subwoofer with the Sierras. It is not needed in my family room. For those familiar, Oteil's bass was there driving the songs right along. No need to guess anymore who is playing the guitar solo. If it's Derek you know it, if it's Warren you know it. Derek plays almost exclusively a Gibson SG. Warren plays mostly a Les Paul. The tone is immediately apparant. Resolution of the drums is the best I have ever heard. So, sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give you some impressions. And thanks for all the suggestion, but the technics will die of old age I guess. Thanks guys.
    Louie

  5. #15

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    So... If bits are bits and DACs are DACs and analog outputs are analog outputs, why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible". I thought there were "no differences"... Even one of the blind tests cited (between the Einstein and the laptop) showed there was no difference. I guess placebos really are a nice thing...
    "I aim to misbehave..."

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Who are you responding to?

  7. #17

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    I apologize, Louie - I was being a bit facetious (all in jest, I assure you) towards another member (I felt he invalidated his own argument). I realize this is not the AVS forum and snide remarks should be kept at bay. I am glad your CD player is working fine and I hope it does last another 20 years!
    "I aim to misbehave..."

  8. #18

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    BTW, I upgraded my Sierras to Nrt status and they sound magnificent!
    "I aim to misbehave..."

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    496

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Quote Originally Posted by Funambulistic View Post
    So... If bits are bits and DACs are DACs and analog outputs are analog outputs, why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible". I thought there were "no differences"... Even one of the blind tests cited (between the Einstein and the laptop) showed there was no difference. I guess placebos really are a nice thing...
    Quote Originally Posted by 1965 View Post
    Who are you responding to?
    I'm pretty sure it was me...
    why would you need an external DAC from your computer because the audio output "really was horrible"
    Because the integrated soundcard of my laptop isn't a cd player? If you noticed, they used an external soundcard with the laptop. And even then, my experience with my own external sound card, Soundblaster Live! I think it is, was that the laptop noise propagated even to the external SBLive through the USB port.

    If you ever purchase a cd player which sounds anything like the audio out of my laptop, no wait, such a thing probably doesn't exist... Hopfully... You can hear the hardisk's needle moving, noise while moving the cursor on the screen... Noisy as hell... I don't know if it's from the shared power supply, cheapo audio motherboard chip, electrical interference or whatever, but there was definitely some issue with the sound. I think in most cases analog out on laptops just isn't a priority and manufacturers don't want to bother (and pay...) to make audio out as good as could be...

    But cd players and laptops are two different things. I'm sure some cd/dvd players exist which are so crap that their analog outs will suffer, but I'd bet they'd be quite hard to find, as almost all brand name cd/dvd players seem to sound the same, well, all the DBTs I've seen seemed to show that.

    Laptop audio sucking is pretty much universally known. I tried to do some recording also from the laptop, and it's not an option, also too noisy. Would require phantom power from a mixer or something...

    Look, if you don't believe me, make the test yourself, borrow a laptop if you don't have one, try the audio out and see if you can hear the difference vs a cd player. Same goes for whether all cd players sound the same or not. Grab a cheap one, an expensive one, and see if you can tell them apart under blind conditions... Matrix hifi leveled matched both cd players to make sure one wasn't playing louder than the other, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, not sure if there's a large/significant level discrepancy between cdps... But laptops and cd players are two completely different things... Although I'm sure there are some laptops out there with good audio!
    Last edited by GirgleMirt; 03-28-2011 at 03:56 PM.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Got sierra-1 nrt's!

    Mss. GirgleMirt,

    Thank you for responding in good humor! I appreciate your opinion and really enjoyed reading over the links you provided.

    I am painfully aware of the typical computer DAC – mine is quite horrible as well. I bought an Asus laptop primarily for AutoCad and some rendering capabilities. I have relocated recently and all of my audio equipment is in storage. Not to be deterred, I plugged in my trusty Nuforce IE cans and was taken aback by the lackluster sound (heck, my iPhone has a better DAC). I have not yet taken the plunge into computer based audio (I have heard some hi-rez tracks on a good system and they sounded awesome). In the interim, I will get a headphone USB DAC for giggles and grins…

    To preface this next part, I would like to state that I do not believe in 99% of the snake oil hype. I do not have “golden ears”. I have never been able to tell the difference between power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, vibration control (except for turntables and speakers – though my system was never “transformed”) green markers, special stones, strange resonators, crystals, harmonic convergence, ad nauseum. I just like to listen to music. That being said, I have heard a sonic difference between some CD players (nowhere nearly as obvious as different speakers can be, of course). Please note I said “some”. Also, I do not care a rodent’s buttocks what someone else uses as a source. If they are happy with a $25 Dynex DVD player from Walmart, fine. If they want to spend $20,000 on a piece of “audio jewelry”, more power to them.

    Case in point: I dismantled a pretty nice system after the demise of an ill-advised marriage. I put together what I called my “Post-Apocalyptic Audio System” which was humble indeed. My source was a $50 Sony DVD player. After a while, I was able to purchase a Sony XA2ES CD player (retail in ’98 was $800 – I bought it on Audiogon on for $250) and it sounded much better (this was a purely subjective assessment because I thought it should: built like a tank, smooth as silk transport mechanism). After my brother went the Blu-ray route, he gave me his Sony DVP S9000ES, which I coveted for quite a while. Since I subscribe to the KISS method to my audio, I decided to sell my CD player because the DVD player did everything (except play my one hybrid SACD, which it should have - bummer). Before I did, I popped in a CD and, being intimately familiar with my kit (one of the reasons detractors of blind testing cite it being bogus – along with fear of being called out) felt something was off and the music did not sound “right”. I did everything I could to make everything equal between the two (the CD player had a set of variable outputs and I level matched as well as I could with a cheap RadioShack meter). My daughter and I had some duplicate titles and I went back and forth (I even had her switch outputs without telling which was which – a rudimentary ABAB, ABBA, etc. test) and the CD player sounded better to my ears every time. Now, I wanted the DVD player to sound better because I liked it so much, which, in effect, negated my subjectivism. Needless to say, I kept both. The DVD player had an awesome picture (that is an argument in of itself; some pundits believe DVDs are DVDs and Blue-rays are Blue-rays and, because they are digital, no player's picture is visually discernable from another).

    I have since sold everything except my trusty Sunfire subwoofer (not by choice – unemployment made that decision for me) and, after being gainfully employed for a while, started from scratch (which was great fun). This time I decided to start with the source. Keeping my KISS mentality, I pursued a universal player because I wanted to invest in some SACDs and DVD audio. I went to my local Hi-fi shoppe and had a look around. I’ve known the owner for over 25 years (did I just say that?) and he is a great guy: he will more than likely steer one to a less costly component if he felt it met their needs. Of course, if someone comes in demanding Macintosh equipment, he will gladly sell it to them. Anyway, I did some research and had my heart set on a Denon unit. I listened to it and it sounded just fine. He told me to hold on a moment and brought in a used Theta Compli (not the Blu) that was on consignment. To my ears, it blew the Denon out of the water (granted, we did not perform a blind test). He had no vested interest in selling me the Theta (i.e. no profit) but that is the kind of guy he is. Unfortunately, I waited too long to pull the trigger and someone snatched it up. This is where it gets weird: We started talking about blind testing and he told me to have a seat in the Macintosh room with B&W 802D speakers (everything was WAY out of my price range). He actually had a form for me to fill out for his test. He burned a copy of my favorite CD (Dead Can Dance “Into the Labyrinth” which I have listened to countless times and am familiar with every nuance of every song). He fed a PS Audio Digital Link III with either a Macintosh universal player or PS Audio Perfect Wave as a transport (I had no preference either way, since I could not remotely afford either one) using the exact same digital cables. He then started the test (the DAC was hidden from me) and asked me which I liked better (he was very systematic about it, playing a whole track on one unit or the other [or not] playing the track with a ten second delay, switched out the disks, etc.) and my answers were 80% accurate (without knowing it, I preferred the PS Audio). This was not even about the DAC or analog outputs, but the transports themselves!

    I wound up with an Arcam DV137 and I love it (retail was $2000 and, since it was discontinued, I got a new unit for $400). A few months ago, I purchased a used Sony Blu-ray player (the Arcam only up-converts DVDs) on Audiogon on for $60 (retail was $250). Of course, the Blu-ray picture is excellent, but the Arcam’s DVD picture is better to my eyes. It also sounds much better with CDs (and DVDs, for that matter). My daughter is grown and out of the house now, so I subjected my new wife (and mother to our new baby!) to a little ABBA, etc. testing (both on me and on her) and the Arcam consistently won out (the levels were pretty well matched already). My wife has no interest in “audio” (she loves music, though and is great at humoring me) but her exact words were, “On one, it sounds like music; on the other, it sounds like actual musicians.” Excellent answer!

    Yes, this post was way too long and drawn out, but this is my personal experience and opinion. Other’s mileage may (and most likely will) vary.

    Cheers!
    "I aim to misbehave..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •