The Tower Discussion Thread!

[therobin]

Anyone here compared the Sierra towers to Salk HT2-TL? I read some comments comparing to Song towers which have lower overall output compared to the HT2-TLs. I currently have the HT2-TL with RAAL. While I love how detailed the midrange and smoothness from top to bottom is, it lacks impact and speed in the bass region. Just the nature of it's 2-way TL design.

I am mostly leaning towards getting a Song3-A but wanted to consider the Sierra Tower since it is would save me some money and on paper is a lot more efficient so I should be able to save myself the money of getting a second amp to bridge. My biggest concern however is, I do not want to "side grade". I ASSUME the Sierra tower by nature of being a 3-way would give better impact in the bass and while still maintaining great midrange detail and imaging (The HT2-TL is exceptional in midrange and I do not want to lose anything there). But has anyone heard the two and can comment on how their low end compares? How about it's dynamics and power handling? I can push the HT2-TL very hard and it will play and can shake anything a 5 1/4" woofer could possibly shake.

It would be used as a dedicated 2 channel stereo without subs for music and movies. Unfortunately, in home trail is not an option for me since I am in Canada. I basically have to commit to my purchases based on whatever information I can gather online. So the more information I can get the better.

[billy p]

Jim is pretty upfornt and could elaborate on the 2 Salk designs and how you could benefit....I know of one member who owns both of said speakers your looking to upgrade...here is a link to his blog

http://www.dl-digital.com/MISC/Speakers-Audio.htm

[Beave]

Why do you think the 2-way TL design lacks impact and speed by its very nature?

How big is your room? How far away do you sit? Where are your speakers placed?

Why no use of subwoofers?

[curtis]

Why do you think the 2-way TL design lacks impact and speed by its very nature?

Beave, I have only heard two different TL design speaker, each from a different manufacturer. In my experience with both, the bass transients seem to be lacking, although they did play deep for the size.

In my thinking, which admittedly could be very wrong, I thought the lack in the transients had something to do with the long pathway of transmission line.

[Beave]

I've only heard one TL design speaker - and that was 25 years ago. The bass was extremely good, although to be fair my reference at the time was a little pair of Boston Acoustics bookshelf speakers that were $250/pair, and the TL speakers were $5k/pair at the time. :-)

Characterizing bass from a speaker based only on listening in room is tricky due to it being so room and position dependent.

I'd guess there are TL designs that are flawed and have poor bass (I've seen some measurements of TL designs on Stereophile that show significant problems in the bass). I'd also guess there are some that get it right and have really good bass.

So I'm not sure that all TL designs have a problem due to their very nature. As with any design (ported, sealed, TL, etc), it's probably more implementation dependent than anything.

[Beave]

Don't those Salk HT-2TLs have 7 or 8 inch woofers mated to a ribbon?

I would think their bass would be a relative strength, and that any weakness would be in the upper mids to low treble (the crossover region, where there's probably some directivity problems).

[therobin]

I suppose I shouldn't say it lacks impact. While it carries smoothly into the low end, it does so with less control and tightness as it gets lower so it give the impression of lacking impact even if the volume output it there. Jim's explanation of what I trying to describe:

As for bass, the reason the bass sounds the way it does in your speakers relates to the transmission line design. The deepest bass in these designs is generated by the cabinet itself. The energy coming off the rear of the woofer excites air in a “line” that is tuned just under the natural fall-off of the woofer. You normally get about 10Hz greater bass extension with a TL design, but the bass is not as tight as with a dedicated woofer generating those same frequencies. So the Song3 speakers will have a bit more “punch” and moves more air down low.

It is not that it is bad. It is amazing what it can do for a 2-way. However, I am yearning for something more now. And that is why I am looking into 3-way to alleviate this issue. Something with more tight and musically detail bass. I am not interested in running subs due to the cost and integration complexity.

So I am looking to gather information now. I'll send an email to dldigital and see what he thinks. But I am not in a hurry. I might wait until next year to see how the new design Salk is working on turns out.

[Bruce Watson]

It is not that it is bad. It is amazing what it can do for a 2-way. However, I am yearning for something more now. And that is why I am looking into 3-way to alleviate this issue. Something with more tight and musically detail bass.

The farther down the frequency range you go, the more benefit you get from a servo system. That's why servos are typically only found in subs. A servo sub will typically give you a tighter and more musical sound. And when you relieve your mains from the stress of providing the bottom couple of octaves, you end up with a cleaner sound as an extra benefit.

You can do this (a 3-way system or something more complex) in one box, or in multiple boxes. That is, a "full range" speaker, or "subs and bookshelf speakers". I just can't think of any full range speakers (but I've been out of that market for quite a while now) that use servo subs. There are bound to be some. IDK.

The advantage you get from separate subs is the ability to place them separately from your mains. You can use this to control (to an extent) room modes, which mostly effect the lower frequencies anyway. This gives you a flatter frequency response than you can usually achieve from full range speakers. Which again helps you attain "tight and musically detailed bass".

I am not interested in running subs due to the cost and integration complexity.

Yup. That's where I was not too many years ago. I get it. I do.

But I found that a servo sub is very easy to integrate with my mains. This is in large part because of the lower distortion that the servo gives you, so it's not messing up the sound coming from the drivers in your mains.

The only arguments I can't counter about subs are the price, and the size. They take up physical room that is typically not underneath your mains, and servo subs tend to cost more than the smaller and less capable subs in a full range speaker. But I'd never consider a sub that wasn't a servo. And in small rooms I'd never consider running a single sub, only pairs or more. Because room modes.

But if what you want is "tight and musically detailed bass" a good pair of servo subs will get you there.

And for the record, I'm running Sierra-2s L/R with a pair of Rythmik LVX-12 servo subs for music. For HT add a Duo center up front and Sierra-1s for surround duties. Prior to this I spent decades with full range speakers, always tweaking trying to find just the right placement (of speakers, listening position, everything in the room, etc.). I don't tweak much at all any more; I quit testing and spend all my listening time... listening.

[Pogre]

I've found that most competently made subs properly integrated into a system offer improvements across the board. Just like Bruce said, I've found offloading the bass frequencies frees my speakers up to focus in the upper frequencies where they perform their best and can offer better clarity and headroom.

Adding a sub to a 2 way speaker system technically makes it a 3 way system with far more flexibility in placement options, imo. It may add a little bit of complexity, but the end result ime is so much better and worth the effort. That is if you really care about sound.

[jeenam]

Completely agree with Pogre. Once you've heard a setup with a properly integrated REL, Rythmik or JL Audio sub you'll find it hard to listen to music without full low end extension into the lowest octaves. Subs add a level of depth to the entire frequency range. It's not just the low end that's affected, it's the entire presentation.