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Thread: The Tower Discussion Thread!

  1. #2211
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Happy to hear that you are enjoying the towers and that they are comparing nicely against your Song 3A's. I believe the Song 3A's are ~ $4K pair so that is saying a lot...

    Just wanted to clarify a few things... The RAAL we are using in our towers is a slightly customized version of the RAAL 70-20xr with the amorphous core transformer combined with a custom faceplate that I designed and was then carried over to our Sierra-2 tweeter. The ribbon in the Song 3A is the 64-10, a great tweeter but a significant step down from the RAAL 70-20xr and much less expensive. What makes the 70-20xr so amazing isn't just the additional radiating area (which is more than double) - it is the unique way RAAL is damping the diaphragm, which is something I am under an NDA regarding the details of. There is very little in common between the RAAL 70-20 and the 64-10, other than they are both true ribbon tweeters and made by RAAL.

    With that in mind, the 64-10 is an offshoot of our custom Sierra-2 tweeter (there are differences and they are not interchangeable) There was great expense in the development of our Sierra-2 tweeter, literally dozens of different samples and loads of man hours involved on both ends. Aleks gave me the opportunity to keep the tweeter entirely exclusive to us, which due to the development expenses, we would have had to commit to a specific amount of volume per quarter. At the time, the number was scary and I was hesitant to commit. Aleks understood, so we agreed that an OEM version would be released (what is now the 64-10 etc)

    Seemed like a fair and reasonable compromise to me so we agreed to it... RAAL is a small company and it is important in this industry to also help our vendors -- and this agreement worked out well for them and we have done well with our Sierra-2 as well. Win-Win if you ask me - because if we were not able to maintain the volume RAAL wanted with exclusivity -- it would have been a big issue for RAAL (who knows if they would have recovered) and also for us.

    Hope this clarifies!
    Wow Dave,

    Thanks for all that information. Sort of clears up the RAAL history for me. I also have my own small company, I admire what you do and understand the peaks, valley's, and risks associated with developing products.
    Your right, the Song3a's were more expensive, and with shipping was right around there. Salk has had a price increase on these since. They are nice, I like them. I don't really consider myself an audiophile, I just like music and movies, and grew up in a generation where when we had extra money we bought "new gear". I try to carry on that tradition, lol.
    I would think if you decided to build a speaker in the bamboo cabinet that was "like" the Song3 it would be pretty special, but so far I think your towers are pretty special already.
    I also pretty much only buy from internet direct companies at this point. I think there is some clear vision and honesty in that segment of the industry that reminds me of what it was like back in the 70/80's that I find refreshing. I started my HT speaker journey in 2002 with Home Theater Direct series 3 speakers, moved to the Smaller EMP towers and center, then to the larger ones, and now to the Sierra towers. I have had extremely good experiences with Outlaw, Emotiva, Axiom (surrounds), Dave at VinylNirvana.com (Thoren's expert) and now with Ascend. I will probably buy a pair of Luna's for my surrounds in the near future. Thanks!

  2. #2212
    Join Date
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    1,924

    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Happy to hear that you are enjoying the towers and that they are comparing nicely against your Song 3A's. I believe the Song 3A's are ~ $4K pair so that is saying a lot...

    Just wanted to clarify a few things... The RAAL we are using in our towers is a slightly customized version of the RAAL 70-20xr with the amorphous core transformer combined with a custom faceplate that I designed and was then carried over to our Sierra-2 tweeter. The ribbon in the Song 3A is the 64-10, a great tweeter but a significant step down from the RAAL 70-20xr and much less expensive. What makes the 70-20xr so amazing isn't just the additional radiating area (which is more than double) - it is the unique way RAAL is damping the diaphragm, which is something I am under an NDA regarding the details of. There is very little in common between the RAAL 70-20 and the 64-10, other than they are both true ribbon tweeters and made by RAAL.

    With that in mind, the 64-10 is an offshoot of our custom Sierra-2 tweeter (there are differences and they are not interchangeable) There was great expense in the development of our Sierra-2 tweeter, literally dozens of different samples and loads of man hours involved on both ends. Aleks gave me the opportunity to keep the tweeter entirely exclusive to us, which due to the development expenses, we would have had to commit to a specific amount of volume per quarter. At the time, the number was scary and I was hesitant to commit. Aleks understood, so we agreed that an OEM version would be released (what is now the 64-10 etc)

    Seemed like a fair and reasonable compromise to me so we agreed to it... RAAL is a small company and it is important in this industry to also help our vendors -- and this agreement worked out well for them and we have done well with our Sierra-2 as well. Win-Win if you ask me - because if we were not able to maintain the volume RAAL wanted with exclusivity -- it would have been a big issue for RAAL (who knows if they would have recovered) and also for us.

    Hope this clarifies!
    Dave, thanks for the recap! Still loving my Sierra-2's for sure.

    What gets my shorts in a knot has nothing to do with other manufacturers using the tech you co-developed in their designs......that is just a natural byproduct of these things. What makes me want to post like this is when customers of those other companies' speakers that use the new RAAL seem to slight your stuff in favor of the other brand without knowing the real back story of how having the smaller RAAL is even possible. Not saying that is the case here AT ALL, just felt compelled to stick up for Ascend!

    MarkGraz, I have been curious about Salk's stuff for a long time, just have not been able to hear any of them. As much as I admire a beautifully finished cabinet, my sense of value would kick in and hold my trigger finger back. Fortunately, my wife is typically the same way!
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  3. #2213
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Dave, thanks for the recap! Still loving my Sierra-2's for sure.

    What gets my shorts in a knot has nothing to do with other manufacturers using the tech you co-developed in their designs......that is just a natural byproduct of these things. What makes me want to post like this is when customers of those other companies' speakers that use the new RAAL seem to slight your stuff in favor of the other brand without knowing the real back story of how having the smaller RAAL is even possible. Not saying that is the case here AT ALL, just felt compelled to stick up for Ascend!
    Yeah - I have seen this too, I often wonder how those customers have come to their completely wrong conclusions. I hope it is just fanboyism - and NOT from misleading information given to them from these competitors. Still, industry success is directly related to performance and value, and we sell more RAAL's than anyone and nobody can toss that up to clever or viral marketing campaigns since we don't advertise anywhere nor do we even display at audio shows (I stopped attending audio shows 2 decades ago, long before most of these audio companies even existed )

    I am happy where we are at and I am even more happy that at no point in time have we had to resort to some of the crazy and unethical practices some of our competitors have used to increase their sales.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  4. #2214
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Yeah - I have seen this too, I often wonder how those customers have come to their completely wrong conclusions. I hope it is just fanboyism - and NOT from misleading information given to them from these competitors. Still, industry success is directly related to performance and value, and we sell more RAAL's than anyone and nobody can toss that up to clever or viral marketing campaigns since we don't advertise anywhere nor do we even display at audio shows (I stopped attending audio shows 2 decades ago, long before most of these audio companies even existed )

    I am happy where we are at and I am even more happy that at no point in time have we had to resort to some of the crazy and unethical practices some of our competitors have used to increase their sales.
    I think it is the fan boy thing Dave for the most part. Most people on any of the forums post in threads to validate their decision and why they got the best deal, or know some secret or whatever.

    I had no idea that you were integral in the development of the RAAL. I just knew that your products featured the tweeter I wanted in my theater along with those of Salk and Dennis Murphy. I am very happy with my purchase so far.

  5. #2215
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGraz View Post
    I think it is the fan boy thing Dave for the most part. Most people on any of the forums post in threads to validate their decision and why they got the best deal, or know some secret or whatever.

    I had no idea that you were integral in the development of the RAAL. I just knew that your products featured the tweeter I wanted in my theater along with those of Salk and Dennis Murphy. I am very happy with my purchase so far.
    Yep - I toss it up to fanboyism as well, and no doubt we have our share of this too. Both Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy have earned my respect and through past correspondences with them, I know they too don't rely on putting down other manufacturer's products to sell their own.

    One note of clarification, while we were integral in the development of the small, lower cost RAAL ribbon tweeter (more specifically, the tweeter in our Sierra-2 which is the one the 64-10 was based off of which is used in your Salk's) - I had no involvement in the development of the RAAL 70-20xr or any of the other RAAL ribbons. We customized the 70-20 for use in our towers but we had no involvement in the stock version of this tweeter (which is only available to OEM's).

    One of these days I will post a pic of all of the different versions/samples of the Sierra-2 ribbon tweeter. For now they are stored in my sample museum, which seems to get larger and larger every year

    If you look closely at the tweeter in your Song's and the one in our ribbon towers, you will notice that the ribbon used in our towers is significantly wider (double the width) and about 6 mm longer in length.

    Where it gets really interesting --

    Here is a pic comparing the back of our 70-20 with a stock 64-10...
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  6. #2216
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Love that pic that shows that part of the RAAL’s. The 70-20XR that you use is really something special. I wish I had more than one in my system. Lol. Someday I will have them for my mains...sooner that later hopefully.

  7. #2217
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Last night was an amazing night with my new Sierra Towers.

    Blu-ray of Blade Runner 2049 in an Oppo UDP-205 going to a Parasound PHP-850 pre-amp to a Parasound 2250v2 amp. Running in pure, good old fashioned two channel stereo mode.

    Bass- DEEP and powerful. I had picture frames rattling on the walls for the first time. But it is never overpowering. Detailed, articulate, and responsive. There were times I heard notes so low, I wasn't quite sure I was hearing them. Movie soundtracks sure do put out some low bass.

    Midrange- I've owned various two way bookshelf speakers forever, so having a dedicated midrange driver is a real stunner for me. Accurate, fast, with perfect dialogue and vocals.

    Treble- The RAAL tweeter is out of this world. It creates a very interesting sense of width and depth. Imaging and soundstage are perfect. There is a sense of air and space around the sounds. Not quite sure how to describe it beyond that as this is my first ribbon tweeter, but I'm very glad I went with the RAAL option. I sit dead center in the sweet spot and have never felt the need for a center channel.

    All in all, this is the best home stereo I've ever put together, and this has been a passion of mine for over 25 years.

  8. #2218
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Funny you should mention Blade Runner 2049, as I just watched parts of that after putting together my completely renovated HT system, compete with towers, horizon, lunas (RAALs all round), and Rythmik L22 sub.
    When I have the system complete and in its new room, with a second sub, I'll write up a more involved "review", as I know there are a number of Axiom owners out there interested in the comparison (I owned an Epic 80-500 system for 10+ years prior to switching to Ascend).
    But for now I will say: so worth it.
    I love the transparency of the system- you can never tell a sound is coming from a certain speaker, just a point in space.
    And the sounds are just so dang REAL. So much information/detail, without fatigue. Just breathtaking.
    The sub serves up the BOOM without being boomy- if that makes sense.
    If I had to sum it all up in one word I'd say "MAGICAL"

  9. #2219
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Magical is right. For music I don't feel a need to have a sub, but for movies I just might wind up looking at something by Rythmik. For that feel it in your chest ultra deep bass.

  10. #2220
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    Default Re: The Tower Discussion Thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by JR123 View Post
    Last night was an amazing night with my new Sierra Towers.

    Blu-ray of Blade Runner 2049 in an Oppo UDP-205 going to a Parasound PHP-850 pre-amp to a Parasound 2250v2 amp. Running in pure, good old fashioned two channel stereo mode.

    Bass- DEEP and powerful. I had picture frames rattling on the walls for the first time. But it is never overpowering. Detailed, articulate, and responsive. There were times I heard notes so low, I wasn't quite sure I was hearing them. Movie soundtracks sure do put out some low bass.

    Midrange- I've owned various two way bookshelf speakers forever, so having a dedicated midrange driver is a real stunner for me. Accurate, fast, with perfect dialogue and vocals.

    Treble- The RAAL tweeter is out of this world. It creates a very interesting sense of width and depth. Imaging and soundstage are perfect. There is a sense of air and space around the sounds. Not quite sure how to describe it beyond that as this is my first ribbon tweeter, but I'm very glad I went with the RAAL option. I sit dead center in the sweet spot and have never felt the need for a center channel.

    All in all, this is the best home stereo I've ever put together, and this has been a passion of mine for over 25 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brady View Post
    Funny you should mention Blade Runner 2049, as I just watched parts of that after putting together my completely renovated HT system, compete with towers, horizon, lunas (RAALs all round), and Rythmik L22 sub.
    When I have the system complete and in its new room, with a second sub, I'll write up a more involved "review", as I know there are a number of Axiom owners out there interested in the comparison (I owned an Epic 80-500 system for 10+ years prior to switching to Ascend).
    But for now I will say: so worth it.
    I love the transparency of the system- you can never tell a sound is coming from a certain speaker, just a point in space.
    And the sounds are just so dang REAL. So much information/detail, without fatigue. Just breathtaking.
    The sub serves up the BOOM without being boomy- if that makes sense.
    If I had to sum it all up in one word I'd say "MAGICAL"
    Quote Originally Posted by JR123 View Post
    Magical is right. For music I don't feel a need to have a sub, but for movies I just might wind up looking at something by Rythmik. For that feel it in your chest ultra deep bass.
    Very happy to hear you are all enjoying the towers!!!! Fro movies, we definitely recommend a subwoofer and you really can't do better than a Rythmik sub for overall sound quality and for matching to our towers...

    Was the new Blade Runner any good? Haven't watched it yet...
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

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