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Thread: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

  1. #1
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    May 2007
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    Default PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Have any of you Rythmik owners come from an SVS? I am in the process of converting my 5.1 to 2.1 and am thinking about giving up my PC-13Ultra. I like the idea of a sealed, very musical sub. I am running my Ultra in sealed mode now, so I don't know if I will be gaining anything. If the move is an upgrade, I will be happier about doing it. If it's just a lateral move, I can live with my Ultra. My room is 2500cu ft and sealed. As it is now, my Ultra is set with the gain almost all the way down. HT is still a concern, but its a side note now, not the majority by any means. All opinions are welcome.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    I'll take a stab and provide my .02

    From what you said one of the biggest things in switching will be advantage of the servo design. Sounds like you may want the accuracy and quickness for music and the Rythmik servo sealed would be your winning ticket. Maybe even go with a smaller driver to maximize what your goal seems to be or better yet, stereo smaller servo sealed enclosures! Now we're talkin!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravingndrooling View Post
    Have any of you Rythmik owners come from an SVS? I am in the process of converting my 5.1 to 2.1 and am thinking about giving up my PC-13Ultra. I like the idea of a sealed, very musical sub. I am running my Ultra in sealed mode now, so I don't know if I will be gaining anything. If the move is an upgrade, I will be happier about doing it. If it's just a lateral move, I can live with my Ultra. My room is 2500cu ft and sealed. As it is now, my Ultra is set with the gain almost all the way down. HT is still a concern, but its a side note now, not the majority by any means. All opinions are welcome.
    I too have an SVS PC-13 Ultra, and have often wondered if sound quality would be substantially better with a Rythmik. Since my listening room is quite small, gain is also fairly low. From my understanding, distortion from a non-servo sub is much less when not pushed too hard, but I still have that nagging feeling that I'm sacrificing sound quality which is very important to me as music is a large majority of what I use my system for.

    I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone whom has listened to both subs in their own listening space. I really enjoy deep, powerful, controlled bass, and would be willing to try a Rythmik if it is indeed a noticeable improvement.

    Jay

  4. #4
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Hi (first post on the forum!),

    I had 2x PC13-ultra (bash+sledge) in my room (2000ft3, not sealed) equalized with a SVS AS-EQ1. I made the switch to 2x F12 from Rythmik (also equalized with the AS-EQ1).

    Maybe it is the shape of my room and all, but I didn't hear a difference. I too don't listen to my movies/music too loud because of the room and because I'm in a apartment. One thing for sure, the SVS was able to play louder and still be clean (to my hears).

    I'm happy that I made the switch just because it saved some space and that the F12s play loud enough for me.

    *I also made the switch between SVS STS-01 and Ascend Towers before switching subs, that made a HUGE difference.

    Seb

  5. #5
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Is yours one of the older PC13-Ultra subs with the BASH amp? Or is it the newest version with the "Sledge" DSP amp?

    Regardless, the SVS Ultra subs are fantastic subs. But the Sledge DSP version offers some of the lowest distortion measurements from any subwoofer out there. And in sealed mode, it has virtually no group delay or ringing, and offers transient response that's about as fast as it gets, while still offering 20Hz and lower extension.

    The older BASH amp version didn't offer quite the same level of nearly perfectly linear output with vanishingly low distortion, but it was still an excellent sub.

    Just in terms of sound quality, you'd be looking at a lateral move in going to a Rythmik. Which is still saying a lot for how good the Rythmik subs are! But if you are finding any instances of "ringing" or "bloat" or "muddiness" in your bass with your PC13-Ultra sub - that is all due to your room acoustics, not the output of the subwoofer itself.

    The PC13-Ultra is certainly a large sub, but it actually offers one of the smallest footprints when it is standing upright. It might be an eyesore, but in terms of how much floor space it takes up, you can't do much better. Fits perfectly on an Auralex SubDude, too

    Your greatest improvements in your bass are going to come from adding a second subwoofer, and positioning them optimally so that they work together to remove as many peaks, nulls, and standing waves in your room as possible. If your room is rectangular, that's going to mean putting the two subs at the mid-way points of two opposing walls - as in, the middle of the front wall, and the middle of the back wall, or the middle of both side walls. If your room is not a rectangle, then it is a far more difficult and involved process, which basically amounts to placing one of the subs, and then moving the second subwoofer, measuring, seeing what your response looks like at all of your seats, then moving the second subwoofer, measuring again, and repeating that process as many times as needed until you find the best spots.

    If you are in a non-rectangular room, the "brute force" approach to making two subwoofers play nicely together might actually be easier. That involves placing the two subs wherever you like, then using Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT to calibrate both subwoofers individually. Of course, that requires buying an AV Receiver or pre-pro that has those Audyssey programs, which are only found on the high end Denon, Marantz, Integra and Onkyo units. Even the TX-NR818 doesn't have it - even though it has MultEQ XT32, it does not have SubEQ HT...it just outputs mono to both subwoofers.

    The other thing to consider are passive or active bass traps. Talk to the folks at GiK Acoustics to see what bass trapping steps you might be able to take to improve the bass in your room.

    Regardless, the PC13-Ultra subwoofer itself is a great subwoofer, and switching over to a Rythmik isn't going to improve the bass that you hear. A second subwoofer - optimally placed - is the best solution. Acoustic bass traps are an important piece of the puzzle. And brute force processing from Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT is your "last resort", but also effective.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Jonathan, have you heard a Rythmik?
    -curtis

  7. #7
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    The Servo Sub was invented by my friend Arnie Nudell when he owned Infinity Speakers in the 1980's. I have owned several of his designs, both from Infinity, and Genesis. I decided to downsize my system, and am very happy with my Ascend Towers.
    http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...-here-infinity

    I agree that J. would benefit from comparing servo to non servo designs. Of course, two servo subs would be a worthy goal.
    B.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
    The Servo Sub was invented by my friend Arnie Nudell when he owned Infinity Speakers in the 1980's. I have owned several of his designs, both from Infinity, and Genesis. I decided to downsize my system, and am very happy with my Ascend Towers.
    http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...-here-infinity

    I agree that J. would benefit from comparing servo to non servo designs. Of course, two servo subs would be a worthy goal.
    B.
    While the Rythmik is a servo design, it is NOT the same as any other servo sub. Rythmik has a patent on their Direct-Servo circuit which has several advancements over traditional servo designs. See the tech page on the Rythmik website.

    Agreed, it is always best to compare and find the sub which best fits your needs.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  9. #9
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    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    When my Sub finally dies, I might get Rythmik. I have read their site at length. They have made incremental improvements to Arnie's pioneering designs. This is the nature of science. I can't wait to see what is next.

    Rock on!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    373

    Default Re: PC-13Ultra to a Rythmik?

    In answer to Curtis,

    I have, indeed, heard the Rythmik F12, F15HP, FV12, and FV15HP in person. I've not heard the remaining models in Rythmik's lineup, but I think the four I've heard are a pretty good representative sample of Rythmik overall, yes?

    And they're excellent! But so too are the SVSound Ultra Series subs, which is why I said that my opinion is that going from an SVS PC13-Ultra to a Rythmik sub would be more of a lateral move than an obvious improvement.

    The issue I was really trying to get at, though, is that going from, say, the PC13-Ultra to the Rythmik F12 would likely result in more of an audible difference - but that the difference being heard would have more to do with the combination of the subwoofers' output plus the room's contribution, rather than all of the difference being heard actually being just the subwoofers alone. That said, since the OP is running his PC13-Ultra in sealed mode, there should be much less of an audible difference in his room and setup. He might actually hear more of a difference in going from the sealed PC13-Ultra to something like the ported FV15HP. But, then again, he could just open the ports on his PC13-Ultra, and now the response would be very similar to the ported FV Rythmik!

    I have to assume that the OP is looking for an improvement in the bass that he is hearing. I'm simply saying that swapping out the PC13-Ultra for a Rythmik is not the cost effective way to achieve that goal. A sealed PC13-Ultra has a very similar quality of bass output to a sealed Rythmik F15HP - at least in my experience. And a ported PC13-Ultra goes toe-to-toe with a ported Rythmik. They're very, very similar subs - which is also reflected by them being very similar in price (once shipping is factored in). While they use different technology (direct servo vs. DSP) and drivers, the bottom line is that both SVS and Rythmik are selling very high quality subwoofers for about as little money as possible. I'd stack the SVS Ultra subs up against pretty much any other subwoofer out there! Just as I would the Rythmik subs. There are subwoofers out there that can play even louder and lower, but typically at much higher prices, or using truly enormous enclosures that just aren't practical in most rooms. In terms of quality of output and bang-for-your-buck value, my opinion is that the SVS Ultra subs and the HP Rythmik subs are neck-and-neck. But I don't feel that either has any large advantage over the other. Not enough to make spending the money on a Rythmik to replace an SVS Ultra worth while.

    If that money is available, I say, spend it on either a second subwoofer, or on improving your room's acoustics. If the PC13-Ultra isn't sounding as "clean" and "tight" as you'd like - that really is the room, not the subwoofer itself. Because the PC13-Ultra's natural output (as measured in a wide open field or in an anechoic chamber) is extremely clean, and free of distortion, group delay, or slow transient response. The Rythmik subs are the same way, but they're not improving upon the SVS Ultra in those areas - just matching.

    So any "slowness" or "bloat" in the bass is due to the room's acoustics, and the relationship between where the seat is placed and where the sub is placed in the room. So rather than buying a new sub, the OP is better off spending the money to improve the cause of the issue!

    Bass traps, optimized placement, a second subwoofer (with optimal placement of both) and/or brute force processing in the form of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/ SubEQ HT (or manual EQ, of course, if you've got several days available for all the painstaking trial and error and adjustments it takes to do it manually!). That's where the money should go, IMO

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