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Thread: NrT upgrade completed!

  1. #71
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Some interesting research I came across on the web:

    The Upper Mid Range

    Covering about one octave, this range of frequencies is responsible for the attack on percussive and rhythm instruments and the "projection" of mid range instruments. Equalization can be applied at any frequency in this range but still somewhat centers around 3 kHz.
    On the foot drum, boosting 2.5 kHz or 4 kHz increases the attack. 2.5 kHz sounds more like a felt beater and 4 kHz sounds more like a hard-wood beater. These frequencies can also be used to increase the attack or "hit" sound on toms and snare drums.
    Guitar lines often get more attack and distinction with equalization added at this range. A small boost (1-3 dB) for the vocal will increase projection. Adding too much energy, in this range, makes it hard to distinguish the syllables of the vocal and can cause listening fatigue. This range of frequencies is often reduced on background vocal to give them a more "airy" and "transparent" sound.

    http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm

    Another factor is the harshness range around 2 to 4 KHz. A good mix will be very controlled in this range, again letting you turn up the volume without sounding too piercing. I listen to a lot of movie and concert DVDs, and the ones that sound best to me are never harsh in that range.

    The Art of EQ

    And a little off topic but was a bit of nostalgia for me:
    http://www.bobhodas.com/tissue.html

    When I was quite young I studied audio recording in college and very briefly spent time working in recording studios. The Yamaha NS-10M loudspeaker and the "tissue fix" was a long running joke in the industry at the time.

    Maybe all I need to do is place a tissue over my Nrt tweeters!

    DaveF would most likely not be amused!

    -CB

  2. #72
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    CB...can you answer this for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    So you are having the issue at this listening level, if the overall listening level is lowered by 4dB, does this piercing/harshness go away?
    -curtis

  3. #73
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    CB...can you answer this for me?
    Lowering the volume per se does not alter the perception of uneven emphasis on the frequency region I am concerned about (i.e. 3k-4k). Of course, if I lower the volume to such a low state then Fletcher Munson comes into effect. That is to say the ear is less sensitive to Lows and Highs at a low volume. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking?

    As I have tried to describe over and over using different examples, it is my conclusion that the upper mid-range of the current Nrt is exaggerated and does not sound like any other speaker I have either owned or have heard - high-end or otherwise. I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.

    DaveF has been very magnanimous in taking my crossover back for modification and I hope he will take the time to test and listen to his mods compared to the current Nrt crossover. I understand he is very measurement focused and I commend him for his adherence to science but as we all know the proof is in the how things sound in the end. I do not believe that anyone is well served by a perfectly measured product that sounds wrong.

    -CB

  4. #74
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ctbarker32 View Post
    Lowering the volume per se does not alter the perception of uneven emphasis on the frequency region I am concerned about (i.e. 3k-4k). Of course, if I lower the volume to such a low state then Fletcher Munson comes into effect. That is to say the ear is less sensitive to Lows and Highs at a low volume. Maybe I misunderstand what you are asking?

    As I have tried to describe over and over using different examples, it is my conclusion that the upper mid-range of the current Nrt is exaggerated and does not sound like any other speaker I have either owned or have heard - high-end or otherwise. I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.

    DaveF has been very magnanimous in taking my crossover back for modification and I hope he will take the time to test and listen to his mods compared to the current Nrt crossover. I understand he is very measurement focused and I commend him for his adherence to science but as we all know the proof is in the how things sound in the end. I do not believe that anyone is well served by a perfectly measured product that sounds wrong.
    Forgive me, but I am still not understanding the situation.

    I believe you have said before that other recordings, or the bulk of what you listen to is not a problem, but there is a percentage of recordings that you do have a problem with.

    You have said that there is a piercing quality you hear in the 3k-4k range due 2-3dB boost compared to the standard Sierra. Is it still piercing when you bring the overall level down? Instead of piercing, you are now saying there is an uneven emphasis.

    Wouldn't this emphasis be apparent in the bulk of what you listen to?

    I think taking the stance of "I am right and you are wrong" is not a good way to convey the situation. For myself, I am trying to get an overall understanding on how you feel about the speaker, and to understand what is going on during these "piercing" instances.

    I spent a good amount of time listening to the NrT version of the Sierras, as well as the Tower (which uses the same tweeter) at Ascend, with material I know well, and other material...a lot of which was guitar work. Nothing I heard came across as wrong, piercing, or uncomfortable.

    There is another Ascend owner local to me that has the NrT upgrade, and if I can get a sample of the music you are having problems with, I think an A/B session will be interesting.
    Last edited by curtis; 02-12-2011 at 05:22 PM.
    -curtis

  5. #75
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by King View Post
    Everything Ct says is circa right.

    The upgrade, was not up.

    Forget the room or room correction or the More Revealing or I was sent a bad speaker set. Because none of this applies. I have dedicated treated rooms (in two homes, one in each), expensive speakers, equipment, tube equipment, amps ect...

    Everyone can hear it, including my cleaning lady with her tin, (vacuum cleaners too loud), ears.

    It brought a transistor beach radio sound to the top end. Period!


    It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

    The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.

    I would not want to encourage Dave to go in this direction, as I am sure he has a lot of yes people around him, as most of us do.
    King,

    I have offered to convert your Sierra-1 NrT back to stock. You refused. Frankly, I need the parts as we are now out of NrT crossovers. If the speakers are simply that unlistenable to you -- PLEASE send them back, I do not understand why you want to keep them. I have customers waiting. I am not insulted by any means and I have said from day one that this upgrade will not be for everyone.

    You state that the Sierra-1 is near perfect for the money, and I am most pleased that you enjoy them. The Sierra-1 NrT is something different and was specifically targeted to those who felt the Sierra-1 were a bit too forgiving / laid back and wanted a speaker with a bit more detail and agression. If you loved the Sierra-1 as is, there was no reason to upgrade.

    Your situation is different than Chris's. He has issues with the 3-4K range (or so he assumes it is in this range) and he enjoys the top end of the Sierra-1 NrT, you do not like the top end of the speaker -- and that is OK too. I have offered to evaluate your pair, but you refuse. Your description of the top end is so far off from everyone else who has Sierra-1 NrT that I wish you would not dismiss the fact that something could be wrong. To get the extension and efficiency that these tweeters offer, the gap size is very small and it is most certainly possible that a voice coil offset has developed which would translate to what you are hearing.

    These are things I MUST evaluate as this is a brand new production tweeter and while I am 100% confident in SEAS's manufacturing abilities, one can never be too sure.

    If you truly want to help, rather than simply state the speaker does not sound right to you, please send them back for evaluation. In one of your messages to me, you stated that Sax sounds great. Chris has stated that he likes the highs. Electric guitar and Saxophone share a similar frequency range. I do not believe that you and Chris are describing the same thing here...
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  6. #76
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by ctbarker32 View Post
    I have been an audiophile for close to forty years and while some may simply dismiss my comments as purely uniformed opinions, I am now pretty close to 100% I am correct in my assessment and that I will be proven correct one day. I know this may be distressing to some but I am only really interested in seeing a great speaker in the stock Sierra-1 remain competitive with the Nrt upgrade.
    Chris, seriously, it is enough. Nobody is dismissing your opinion, just as you should not be dismissing other people's opinions (and you are trying to.) You hear what you hear just as others hear what they hear...

    Your crossover modification will be a fun and interesting experiment for the both of us.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    [QUOTE=davef;36479]King,

    I have offered to convert your Sierra-1 NrT back to stock. You refused. Frankly, I need the parts as we are now out of NrT crossovers. If the speakers are simply that unlistenable to you -- PLEASE send them back, I do not understand why you want to keep them.

    1 At first I thought maybe it was just me and my first 20 friends.
    2 Then I remembered what a PIA it was to box/ship and pay $60 again to ship.
    3 I had hoped to get use to it (sound) over time. Some music is tolerable the sax on one sacd was great.
    4 I wanted a different sound as I already own The original Sierra-1's
    5 I live on the water and a dolphin beached itself during a rendition of Supertramps "Breakfast in America", on the radio.

    I am saying I personally think this is the wrong road to go down.
    I am a good customer speaking up. That's all. Period!

    You can help me by making another speaker that I will love to replace these with in the future. Or send a buyer for the final shipping good bye.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by King View Post
    Everything Ct says is circa right.

    The upgrade, was not up.

    Forget the room or room correction or the More Revealing or I was sent a bad speaker set. Because none of this applies. I have dedicated treated rooms (in two homes, one in each), expensive speakers, equipment, tube equipment, amps ect...

    Everyone can hear it, including my cleaning lady with her tin, (vacuum cleaners too loud), ears.

    It brought a transistor beach radio sound to the top end. Period!


    It turned the Sierra-1 into something I would never buy, if I had heard them first.

    The originals are near perfect for the money. Which I also have.

    I would not want to encourage Dave to go in this direction, as I am sure he has a lot of yes people around him, as most of us do.
    Exactly how do you know there isn't something wrong with the speaker? If it clearly sounds worse than the originals, does that mean all the people who like the NRT upgrade have worse hearing than your cleaning lady?

    I had a pair of the original Sierras for a long time and was quite happy with them. But over time I found them lackng just a bit in upper range clarity and detail in comparison to some other speakers I heard.

    I didn't know Dave had something in the works so I ended up with a different speaker that does provide that extra clarity in the treble, although less bass extension.

    If you look at the frequency response for the original Sierra you can see a dip around 3 khz and a roll off after around 15 khz. So even though the originals were great speakers, they were not perfect.
    Last edited by Mike^S; 02-13-2011 at 09:28 AM.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quite the debate here

    I commend all of you for being honest with your impressions of both the stock Sierra-1 and the Nrt version. While I enjoy my Nrt center channel very much, it may not be for everyone as concluded from the posts above. I think on a positive note, the glass is half full here. You both enjoy the stock sierra very much(which is awesome) and the Nrt may simply not be for you. The best news of all, especially in the audio world, you both like a less expensive product over a more expensive one

    Fortunately you both have a choice here and dont try and convince us, go back to the stock sierra and enjoy all the great music!


    Take care guys,

    Brandon

  10. #80
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    Mar 2004
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    Default Re: NrT upgrade completed!

    Quote Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post
    Quite the debate here

    I commend all of you for being honest with your impressions of both the stock Sierra-1 and the Nrt version. While I enjoy my Nrt center channel very much, it may not be for everyone as concluded from the posts above. I think on a positive note, the glass is half full here. You both enjoy the stock sierra very much(which is awesome) and the Nrt may simply not be for you. The best news of all, especially in the audio world, you both like a less expensive product over a more expensive one

    Fortunately you both have a choice here and dont try and convince us, go back to the stock sierra and enjoy all the great music!


    Take care guys,

    Brandon
    +1

    I have been an audiophile for 26 years, and have owned and heard some very nice speakers. There are many different "flavors", mainly because each of us hears differently. If the original Sierra-1 does everything right for you, then no sense in upgrading. I felt the original did most things right, but I too felt the highs could be improved. The NrT has given me what I was looking for.

    I guess the lesson learned here is to audition both of these before buying one or the other if possible. Perhaps a home trial could be setup by Ascend that would include a Sierra-1 AND a Sierra-NrT speaker so the customer could do a side by side in their home. Whichever speaker they preffered they keep, send the other speaker back, Ascend then ships the other matching speaker to the customer and the final costs adjusted. Just an idea that may help avoid this issue in the future.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
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    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

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