AV123 thoughts/opinions?

[tywel]

My first post!

I have been browsing many online forums, this forum, while small, seems to be more mature and professional than most others. Hats off to Ascend for a remarkable reputation and customer base!

I seem to receive a promotional email from AV123 every week with each one more hyped than the other. I can't recall ever joining their email list but that is beside the point. The latest deal for a pair of floorstanders is hard to pass up but the price is so low that it begs the question, have their products been marked up so much in the past and did they take advantage of their own customers? I have read so much negativity about this company lately and general opinions are highly polarized, love them or hate them.

Would I be doing business with a company that is actually looking out for its own customers or a company that is simply looking to make a quick profit? I understand that all businesses are looking to make a profit but at what cost? AV123 emails read like the company is on top of their game and nothing is wrong. They do not address the many publicly discussed problems, are these "problems" just a few annoyed customers who complain or are there deep underlying problems?

I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?

If discussions like this are not allowed here, please remove my post. I am not looking to start a flame war, instead I am trying to acquire some honest opinions from a community that seems less emotional and more mature than most.

thank you.

[GirgleMirt]

The latest deal for a pair of floorstanders is hard to pass up but the price is so low that it begs the question, have their products been marked up so much in the past and did they take advantage of their own customers?

I think the answer to this is obvious. Sadly... Just one of those companies where you should not ever buy anything at 'regular' price and when buying something 'on sale' is pretty much the same as buying at regular price...

I recall one of their sales, they sold a Ref1 speaker (2 way bookshelf) which sold for 1500$, with a 999$ tube amp, for 1200$ I think it was. The exact same speaker, (except with a rosewood finish instead of piano black or their other glossy finish) plus the 999$ tube amp, for 1200$. (or 600$ each). Imagine someone buying the speaker for 1500$, and a couple of weeks later, see the exact same speaker plus amp for 300$ less than he paid just the speaker for!

When Ascend came out with the Sierras, really made them look silly btw

And have you read about all the issues they've been having? They sold a ton of products with known defects, and have been delaying and delaying the repairs, instead opting for sending more defective parts... Anyhow, supposedly now they have the issue resolved, but it hasn't started to ship and really I don't think anyone is naive enough to take them to their word.

AV123 emails read like the company is on top of their game and nothing is wrong.

That's hilarious, that's probably why they closed their forums, so that their extremely numerous disgruntled customers are hidden under the carpet instead of in plain view in their forums. But even then, check out forums like avsforum, audioholics, etc. you'll find a ton of people absolutely fed up with all the av123 ongoing issues.

I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?

Yep, I've read it too, the guy who the charity was supposed to be for said that he received part of the money but that he was confident that Mark Schifter wouldn't screw him out of the money he supposedly raised for him. But so far, he had not received the full amount... That's pretty damn sad, and says a lot... Guessing he doesn't want to say anything which would make Mark Schifter not send him the rest of the charity money he owns him... Another guy on avsforum bought a sub directly from Mark, his personal sub, paid for it, and 7 months later, the sub has yet to be shipped.

Anyhow, I've not been a fan of theirs for a long time. Guess the whole cheesy and hype stuff has always rubbed me the wrong way, as with their 'white van on sale' scheme. But their latest issues turned even many of their strongest proponents (fanboys, kool-aid drinkers, whatever you want to call them) and are now pretty much evident to everyone, and what seem to be the worst to many is that they absolutely do not want to admit their faults, instead they just act like everything is fine and dandy and that there's absolutely nothing wrong.

(from avsforum)

Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Since you're apparently clairvoyant with all things regarding AV123 can you tell me when MLS will ship my parents the subwoofer I paid for 7 months ago that's currently sitting in his basement?

C'mon, man.. you know the answer to this question...

"SOON."

*hugs*

All the best..

Guys c'mon now...no need to squabble.

Hugs ...

Kisses...

All The Best...

Take Care of yourself...

I love you guys...

oh, and...

Happy [insert holiday] to you and yours.

[dallas]

woah. Isn't Emotiva an offshoot of av123?

[curtis]

I have also read that the owner of this company has run various charity raffles and has kept some or part of the proceeds. Is there any truth to this?

As girglemirt pointed out, there is. There is also at least one more charity raffle(for an actual verifiable charity...the only verifiable charity the owner(AV123) ran a raffle for....all others seem to be for private parties or out of the country), where $3000 was donated out of $12,750 raised.

woah. Isn't Emotiva an offshoot of av123?

They started by selling through AV123, but then went off on their own. They are separate companies.

[GirgleMirt]

Maybe elaborate a bit on earlier. Often some deals, might seem too good to pass up. That's exactly the spirit of what is known as the white van scam. Someone drives up in a van, wants to sell you speakers and say that somewhere someone messed up and they have extra speakers which they'll sell for a fraction of the retail price. They'll show you some litterature showing the speakers selling for 1500$, and will sell them to you for 300$. Well of course, 1500$ isn't a 'real' price, it's fake litterature. And the scam is that the speakers aren't even worth whatever they're asking... But hey, 1500$ for 300$, who could pass this up? In truth, it's a scam. The hype, 'get them fast or you'll miss out on this too good to be true one time only deal!!!' is all part of the scam.

The Rocket 850 deal is what you were talking about I think... 2000$ for 1200$... Wow! 40% off!!! That's amazing!!!! Really? Someone mentioned emotiva: (from avsforum.com)

Hans Gruber wrote:
It was only a few short years ago that Emotiva sold thier products through AV123. Emotiva went their own way without explaining why. The owner of AV123 had some not so nice things to say about Emotiva. Dan's response from Emotiva was no response.

m-fine416 wrote:
Emotiva made a lot of mistakes, but they learned from them and grew into a better company. AV123 chooses to repeat theirs. My 6 year old could tell you which approach is better and she doesn't even have an MBA.

And Emotivas make towers, similar to 850. If you compare both, the 850 will most probably cost you a couple hundreds to ship. Emotiva's towers are 1650$ shipped so after shipping they're very closely priced.

IMHO, av12 blows up their retail price to sell at 'normal' prices on sale. A LOT of people seem to get fooled by this, and with all the hype they used to be able to generate... Anyway, as I've said, I've really never been a fan. Personaly, I'd go with Emotiva's towers instead of av123.com. Hell, I'll never buy anything from them. Where I slightly disliked them a couple years ago, now that they've lost all trace of credibility, just no way I'd encourage them in any way.

And the charity money... Man... How low can you sink...

Basically, that's my view. Not only were their products really nothing out of the ordinary (Take Ref1 at 1500$: Review), they're really showed as overpriced when compared to a speaker like Ascend's Sierra1... Anyhow, I don't really want to turn this into a VS thread, but imho, there's no comparison between these two companies. And really, when both companies have comparable products, 900$ Sierra Piano Black vs 1500$ Ref1 Piano Black for example, you can really see that the way both companies price their speakers is VERY different. And the fact that they were able to sell a '999$' tube amp with a '1200$' speaker for 1200$, really again just makes plainly evident what kind of pricing they do. And it's the same with pretty much all of their lines.

And anyhow, all the negativity really isn't... Superfluous... There's actually a lot of really extremely severe issues still going on today. And the fact that they had to close their forums should serve as a very obvious warning to everyone.

And anyway, you've probably just seen the tip of the iceberg. Over the years, you wouldn't believe what some of their issues were... One for example not mentioned, and absolutely ridiculous, one of their Rocket (760 I think it was) speakers got reviewed, and they showed very poor performance: Crossover seemed to be really messed up (confirmed by measurements), as in, so bad they seemed defective... av12 found all kinds of excuses, it was a photo sample or I don't remember waht, and they denied there was a problem, etc.. But later, they sold an 'upgrade' crossover, for those who wanted to 'improve' their performance... Many were pissed that they didn't simply replace the defective crossovers as they should have, and that they had to purchase new and expensive crossovers... But anyhow, someone said they must have the worst QA in the industry (people getting speakers not working; defective woofers, defective crossovers, amps, or even in some cases missing drivers!!!), sadly, it's nothing special for this company. Really... imho, the bad you're seeing isn't an exageration in the least. Just go with a reputable company!

Errr... Now I feel somewhat bad.. Maybe I should have simply said: "no comment!" (Do the same as Emotiva when asked why they dropped them!!!)

[tywel]

Appreciate the comments. I am not looking to compare AV123 products or the company to Ascend. If I were able to afford one of the better Ascend systems + subwoofer it would already be in my home. I suppose I am in denial that things over there really are that bad. It does seem like they have pushed away or lost their old time supporters and are looking to establish a new customer base by offering such heavily discounted sales. They certainly can not be making much profit at these prices but I really wouldn't know.

Various people have told me to avoid associating Mr. Schifter with AV123 as he was/is the person that ran the charity raffles and has caused the bulk of the problem. They said the company (AV123) is legit but to avoid contacting or doing business with Schifter. That seems odd to me but somewhat understandable, however, Mr Schifter is the one announcing all of these sales so obviously he is still associated with the company.

As girglemirt pointed out, there is. There is also at least one more charity raffle(for an actual verifiable charity...the only verifiable charity the owner(AV123) ran a raffle for....all others seem to be for private parties or out of the country), where $3000 was donated out of $12,750 raised.

is there any verifiable proof to this? People on AVS and at TCA have told me privately that Schifter has made good on all his promised donations and that the anti-av123 crowd has blown this way out of proportion.

[curtis]

Various people have told me to avoid associating Mr. Schifter with AV123 as he was/is the person that ran the charity raffles and has caused the bulk of the problem. They said the company (AV123) is legit but to avoid contacting or doing business with Schifter. That seems odd to me but somewhat understandable, however, Mr Schifter is the one announcing all of these sales so obviously he is still associated with the company.

That is funny. Mr. Schifter owns the company, makes the decisions, and does the communication to the public....and you are suppose to not associate him with the company?

is there any verifiable proof to this? People on AVS and at TCA have told me privately that Schifter has made good on all his promised donations and that the anti-av123 crowd has blown this way out of proportion.

Those folks are only reiterating what they have been told, and that directly contradicts what others that are involved have said, none of them have done the leg work to find out the truth. For the verifiable charity, it is on their forums unless it has been deleted....you can calculate the amount of money from the number of tickets sold, and then call the charity to find out what was donated.

[tywel]

That is funny. Mr. Schifter owns the company, makes the decisions, and does the communication to the public....and you are suppose to not associate him with the company?

I know, it seems silly.

Those folks are only reiterating what they have been told, and that directly contradicts what others that are involved have said, none of them have done the leg work to find out the truth. For the verifiable charity, it is on their forums unless it has been deleted....you can calculate the amount of money from the number of tickets sold, and then call the charity to find out what was donated.

Can you point me in a direction or provide a link?

[curtis]

PM sent.

[GirgleMirt]

Why PM? Btw, isn't it completely illegal to collect money for a so called charity and then keeping the money for yourself? I can't see how this could be legal!