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Thread: Decisions, Decisions...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Torrance, CA
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    15

    Default Decisions, Decisions...

    Hello,

    I have been reading threads in the various HT forums searching for a good sub to go with my modest system. My setup is not that big (see layout below), so I was looking for a small footprint sub that could reach lower than my powered towers. (rated ~ to the mid 20s)

    With my first go at it, I bought an svs pc12+. It was nice, but big, and it went very low. However, I was unable to blend it in with my system. The svs would rumble down low but I could not get it to help in the mid leaving a big freq gap in between my towers and the sub. I ended up sending it back. Maybe if I knew then, what I kind of know now, then maybe I could have blended the svs better. But, as it is, I am now looking for something different.

    What I am looking for now is something more musical and much tighter than the svs was. Then I read about these rythmik subs and based on positive user comments, the nice finish and the smaller size, I am taking a strong look at these subs. However, after my last experience, I am reluctant to buy a sub w/o hearing it. I was hoping that someone could point me in the right direction before I buy ID again.

    My budget is pretty flexible and I would get the piano gloss finish. I could possibly get one f12, two f12s, or one d15. Two d15s would be too huge for my setup. I calculated the room size at ~3800 square feet but it is not a dedicated room as you can see. (See below) I am a 60HT:40music guy.

    How would you choose between the different setups. Will two f12s get as low as one d15. Will it be easier or harder to blend two f12s versus just one. Will one f12 be enough for moderate listening levels? Do I need to get an SPL meter before deciding? Decisions, decisions.

    Thanks for listening.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Manhattan Beach, California
    Posts
    7,032

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    A single 15" Rythmik should have similar output to that PC12+. Two 12" Rythmiks will have more output than a single 15" if co-located. If seperated, two 12" should have similar output to a single 15", but also have smoother output throughout the room.

    Yes....two 12" will have the same extension as a single 15". Both the 15 and 12 have the same extension ratings.
    -curtis

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Torrance, CA
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    Thanks for the reply Curtis.

    I think that I'm going to purchase either 1 or 2 f12s.

    Question: If I have towers with powered subs (10"), then can I get away with just one f12 and keeping the towers full range? Or will this interfere with the sound quality coming from the rythmik? I see a lot of recommendations for setting the towers to small and letting the sub handle the bass.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Juliette, GA
    Posts
    403

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    Welcome to the forum!

    I have a couple of thoughts. First the problems with the SVS may not be related to the unit. Does your receiver have a way of EQing, such as Audyssey? There's a good chance your problems came from room acoustics and/or sub placement. I'd hate for you to buy another sub, only to be disappointed because the problem lay elsewhere.

    Also, multiple subs, in addition to adding volume, can smooth out room response. I've seen test charts comparing the same room with one, two and four subs. In this particular test, a room with a lot of peaks and dips smoothed out considerably by the use of multiple subs.

    Tell us what kind of towers you have.

    Doug

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    I have to agree with DougMac on this. What you heard with the SVS sub may have mostly been due to the room acoustics. Room interactions are a huge factor with low frequencies. As DougMac points out, systems like Audyssey are supposed to be helpful with room modes, but this is a last resort to what’s most important…sub placement and room treatments. Here’s a pretty technical article on the subject that will make your head spin…

    http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...or-bass-part-1

    I have a SVS PB10 and Ascend 170’s. I know that on paper the frequency response should be ruler flat from 20hz to 20khz with this combo but I have to tell you that when I run a frequency sweep there is a big frequency dip in the middle of my sub’s response. I know that the response issue is room interaction because it changes based on placement, also I can hear the response vary as I move to different parts of the room.

    Both SVS and Rythmik subs are high quality but I were choosing between the two I’d probably lean towards Rythmik (though my SVS is nice) because the direct servo technology in Rythmik subs is supposed to keep the bass as controlled and high resolution as possible. When it comes down to it I never make full use of the output of my SVS and I’d rather that the bass I am using be as clean as possible.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Torrance, CA
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    15

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    When I had my SVS, I used audyssey to set up my speakers. (8 positions) I also moved the sub around the room and fiddled with the gain and the mode. I could never get it right. Maybe I need better towers.

    BTW, I have a 5.0 setup with Definitive bipolar towers with 10" woofers. The center and surrounds are also Definitive. My AVR is the Denon 2809.

    The SVS was too big anyway. I need a sub that's a little smaller. I built a cardboard model of the f12 and it fits my space nicely. Now, is it one or two?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Juliette, GA
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    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    Quote Originally Posted by SC^SoCal View Post
    Now, is it one or two?
    I say two!

    I noticed your room is practically square, not the best shape for audio. Maybe two subs will help tame the anomolies.

    Are your Definitives the BP7004? The only bipolar towers I saw listed that mentioned a 10" woofer was ones with a powered subwoofer. If this is the case, I'd definately try different settings. I thought Audyssey automatically determined speaker size. I think it would be worth trying setting the mains to small to see if the low bass muddiness you're hearing isn't coming from them. You could also experiment with setting them to large and set your crossover very low.

    Whatever you decide, it may be worthwhile to download REW, get an SPL meter and run some sweeps without doing Audyssey, just to see what your room is doing. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

    Doug

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Torrance, CA
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    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    Quote Originally Posted by DougMac View Post
    Are your Definitives the BP7004? The only bipolar towers I saw listed that mentioned a 10" woofer was ones with a powered subwoofer. If this is the case, I'd definately try different settings. I thought Audyssey automatically determined speaker size. I think it would be worth trying setting the mains to small to see if the low bass muddiness you're hearing isn't coming from them. You could also experiment with setting them to large and set your crossover very low.
    Thanks for the suggestions DougMac. I will definitely try this when I get the Rythmik(s). My towers are indeed the 7004s.

    Quote Originally Posted by DougMac View Post
    Whatever you decide, it may be worthwhile to download REW, get an SPL meter and run some sweeps without doing Audyssey, just to see what your room is doing. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/
    I just bought an SPL meter from Radio Shack based on suggestions from the AVS Forum. I have not figured out actually how to use it yet.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    97

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    I would say get 2 if possible and also try setting the towers crossed over at around 60hz and let the subs do the heavy lifting. That may get you a better sound. I dont think you mentioned where you crossed them just that your towers would go to the mid 20's. I prefer the sound from a dedicated sub vs powered from the tower unless im listening to direct music straight from towers.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Torrance, CA
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    15

    Default Re: Decisions, Decisions...

    I received my F12SE on Friday and the finish is very nice. Does it sound as good as it looks? Well, when I first plugged the sub into the receiver, my whole system had a noticeable hum. I was told that it was probably a ground loop issue. I have since fixed the problem, and have been listening to the sub for a couple of days now. The bass from this sub is totally different than the bass from the pc12+. It is definitely tighter and therefore easier to blend with the rest of my setup.

    I have a couple of questions though...

    Does the f15 sound as good as the f12 only louder? If it does, then I will consider upgrading to the f15.

    Can anyone provide a good picture of the finish on the f15? I like the piano black finish but I can live with the oak if it is black enough. My computer monitor makes the oak finish on the website look almost grey and the grille look blueish.

    Thanks.

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