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Thread: D15 Se setup

  1. #11
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    I honestly cannot believe I spent a grand on a sub, but I upgraded to Sierra's, so thought I might as well get a great sub to match them

    Hey Brian, how come you can't defeat the crossover on the amp? I would think for this kind of money, it should have every option lol

  2. #12
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by R˙che 1 View Post
    Hey Brian, how come you can't defeat the crossover on the amp? I would think for this kind of money, it should have every option lol
    Well it has to do with the servo design. In short, the servo utilizes a frequency band over which it can achieve precise cone movement control. And voice coil inductance does the opposite. We have done all the tricks to bring inductance down. The result is the servo has a naturally roll-off starting at 80-90hz (depending on models). For subwoofer application, this is good enough. To extend the top end, I would need to add additional circuitry which will just add coloration. I have decided not to do. So far I haven't heard any problem. As our web page phase alignment will show you, phase alignment is way more important than the slope of the front speakers or subwoofers.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Ok, thanks for the explanation...I was just thinking, with my home theater receiver, you use the crossover built-in the receiver, so you don't need the crossover on the sub...But, I understand to just turn the crossover on the sub all the way up, as to not interfere with the receiver crossover

  4. #14
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Brian, you have an email.........
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  5. #15
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by R˙che 1 View Post
    Ok, thanks for the explanation...I was just thinking, with my home theater receiver, you use the crossover built-in the receiver, so you don't need the crossover on the sub...But, I understand to just turn the crossover on the sub all the way up, as to not interfere with the receiver crossover
    Unless you set the receiver to cross above 80-90hz, something I've found to be a very common occurrence with Audyssey. Also, LFE content is reported to go as high as 120hz.

    Wow, can't defeat the crossover? TBH, isn't it pre-dolby digital era to be crossing manually with a sub?
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

  6. #16
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    Wow, can't defeat the crossover? TBH, isn't it pre-dolby digital era to be crossing manually with a sub?
    This statement is completely wrong!

    One has absolutely nothing to do with the other... You are not "crossing manually" to the subwoofer. The receiver's crossover is still in effect (the subwoofer does not and can not control the receiver's crossovers). The only difference is that the LP filter on the subwoofer is still engaged, one simply needs to turn the LP filter up to the highest setting. (same thing we did for tens of thousands of subwoofers at M&K).

    The reason for this is because when you defeat the LP filter, you are bypassing an opamp stage and various resistors and capacitors. By removing these components, you are actually changing several other characteristics of the critical low-level source signal, before the amplification stage. Bypassing these components does more than simply defeating the subwoofer's low-pass filter...

    Precise servo control of the woofer is achieved by calculating a predicted response. Variations from this predicted response cause the servo to "correct". Defeating the LP filter will throw off the already predicted response and the precise servo control of the woofer will not be as accurate.

    I hope you can understand the above... Servo subwoofers should not be confused with non-servo subwoofers, they are far more complex...
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  7. #17
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    This statement is completely wrong!
    That was a question, and questions can't be wrong.

    One has absolutely nothing to do with the other... You are not "crossing manually" to the subwoofer.The receiver's crossover is still in effect (the subwoofer does not and can not control the receiver's crossovers).
    Sure, the receiver's crossover is in effect, BUT if your receiver is crossing at 120hz, and your sub is crossing at 80hz, which speaker is then playing 100hz material? Answer: (other than spillover) - none of them are.

    The reason for this is because when you defeat the LP filter, you are bypassing an opamp stage and various resistors and capacitors. By removing these components, you are actually changing several other characteristics of the critical low-level source signal, before the amplification stage. Bypassing these components does more than simply defeating the subwoofer's low-pass filter...
    A bunch of stuff over my head, but none of which changes the fact that most modern subs allow you to defeat the crossover. Actually, so far, this is the only modern sub I know of that won't let you. Are there any other ID's that won't let you do it (which is a nice way of say, can't do it)?

    Precise servo control of the woofer is achieved by calculating a predicted response. Variations from this predicted response cause the servo to "correct". Defeating the LP filter will throw off the already predicted response and the precise servo control of the woofer will not be as accurate.
    Lamen's interpretation: You give a lot to gave "servo" benefits.

    I hope you can understand the above... Servo subwoofers should not be confused with non-servo subwoofers, they are far more complex...
    I understood enough. They lack one essential dolby digital era sub ability, which is the ability to defeat the crossover and allow the receiver to completely, and entirely control which sound goes where.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

  8. #18
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    Oct 2008
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    101

    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    That was a question, and questions can't be wrong.
    If you haven't read this pagehttp://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html, please do so (that others). Phase integration is more important than roll-off slopes. The example subwoofer in those plots is our F15/D15 sub. The front speakers cover a range of what you will find in this market: small woofer, mid size woofer, sealed and vented. With proper adjustment on the HT menu, they all get the best results which really makes one wonder what benefits that a flat to 20khz subwoofer can bring to that. The xover between front speakers and subwoofers are just a platform. We need to know how to use it to our best and making a subwoofer flat to 20khz would not even help.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Azanon, If you must have a sub with a defeatable crossover, buy one. You certainly do not want to get an "outdated" product.

    I ran my last sub in bypass mode. A Rocket UFW-10. The Rythmik Direct Servo 12" I have is sonically superior in every category, without a defeatable crossover. The receiver does tell which sounds and frequencies go where. The sub's crossover is dialed all the way up and is not affecting the frequncies below it's highest setting (minimally if any). True, if you want to cross over at 100hz or higher then a servo sub may not be the best choice.

    We all have to make decisions which put our minds at ease, so go with your gut.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    466

    Default Re: D15 Se setup

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Azanon, If you must have a sub with a defeatable crossover, buy one. You certainly do not want to get an "outdated" product.
    Do you not see my sig? Did that. I'm just having an audio discussion. Do you not discuss products other than the ones you specifically own?

    I'll admit I didn't know it lacked that feature when I made my decision though. So as it turned out, I'm just that much more comfortable with my final decision.

    I ran my last sub in bypass mode. A Rocket UFW-10. The Rythmik Direct Servo 12" I have is sonically superior in every category, without a defeatable crossover. The receiver does tell which sounds and frequencies go where. The sub's crossover is dialed all the way up and is not affecting the frequncies below it's highest setting (minimally if any).
    Of course it doesn't affect the sounds below the crossover. It affects the ones above it.

    True, if you want to cross over at 100hz or higher then a servo sub may not be the best choice.
    You think? ;-) I'm crossing at 80hz now, but I still want the option to go higher down the line if I make changes necessitating that.

    We all have to make decisions which put our minds at ease, so go with your gut.
    As i said above, I did. I'm just discussing audio equipment, and I'm doing it here because I'm an Ascend owner.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

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