Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

[azanon]

Azanon, this line here seems to be a major point of yours against using a lower crossover for a subwoofer.

I think you need to double check your information. I just called Audyssey and talked to Luke in tech support and he said this is completely wrong. If Audyssey recommends a crossover of 100hz and you lower it to 60hz, you do not lose EQ between 100hz and 60hz.

Call them if you like. Their number is (213) 625-4300.

-Mike

http://www.avforums.com/forums/room-...-question.html

Post #2 in that Thread. The actual representative from Audyssey that he's referring to has posted this several times at AVS. Notice how no one disagreed with him. I"m a bit lazy, and would prefer to not actually find where "Audyssey" stated this directly. But if you still don't believe me, I'll find his direct words if you insist.

In short, Audyssey only EQ's down to the determined crossover.

However, back on another point, "Audyssey" has stated at least a few times that, in most cases, he recommends not lowering the crossover, and that Audyssey usually chooses the correct crossover. But now I'm just restating something I said earlier and we're going circular real fast here.

[azanon]

Audyssey set my Sierras to large (yes, I realize the receiver plays a part in the decision) and set the crossover for the 200SEs to 140hz (I'm still trying to figure that out).

But you dont seem to realize Audyssey didn't set your speakers to large.
Your receiver played all of the part of deciding that.

Go read the Audyssey FAQ.

It seems to me that you yourself may not be in the position to make a fair judgment on the Audyssey technology while being on the too-much-faith side of things. I do find the technology to be neat and useful, but it is still a fairly young technology; I feel perfectly comfortable making the final judgment myself. Audyssey's popularity in the market place is most certainly not an indication of its ultimate effectiveness.

-matt

I've gotta admit Matt, at best I would only think its "neat" too, if I was under the impression Audyssey thought my Ascend's were "large" speakers.

I'm impressed that you can "out-EQ" Audyssey. Seriously! I promise no sarcasm, ok? I know I can't out EQ Audyssey, so I don't try. I'm a novice, you guys are the experts!

[azanon]

Your statement directly contradicts your other statement. If the receiver sets the crossover point and then Audyssey takes measurements and adjusts EQ, why can't I set the receiver's crossover point and re-run Audyssey? Obviously, while the "receiver" itself might somehow magically chose the crossover point, this decision is based on the measurements and information provided by Audyssey -- and who is to say that information is 100% correct? I Can't imagine that these receivers come with reference grade measurement microphones, which typically cost many thousands of dollars. And while we are at it, who is to say that Audyssey's choice of measurement technique and interpretation of results is correct?

OMG - now you're doing the very thing all of you accused me of doing in that last debate - equating crossover with "large" vs. "small" speaker setting. As we concluded in that other debate, the decision on large vs. small and crossover are mutually exclusive decisions and settings.

1. Your receiver makes the decision on "large" vs. "small. 2. Audyssey chooses the crossover. Got it? If that doesn't make sense to you, send Audyssey an email. That's the fact of the matter.

Az, I have industry standard reference grade audio measurement gear and I have been measuring loudspeakers for more than half my life. I would estimate I have taken well over 200,000 measurements at this point and I strongly doubt anyone at Audyssey has taken as many measurements as I have - probably not even close. Even with the equipment I use, I often question a particular measurement because it does not look right to me. Mic positioning, speaker positioning, room modes, noise, humidity, grounding, equipment irregularities and various acts of nature can all dramatically influence a loudspeaker measurement. It takes years of experience to be able to look at a measurement and say, yeah -- that looks right and is consistent with what I am hearing. It is simply not possible to objectively determine that a measurement is correct without some form of human interaction. There are simply too many variables that can influence a measurement...

When the NRC in Canada measured our Sierra-1, Doug Schneider had mentioned that the first set of measurements on one of the tests did not look right to the engineer. I don't remember which test it was or why the results looked strange, but sure enough, the follow up tests looked correct to this engineer and the results were then finalized.

Let me ask a simple question, how do you know that what Audyssey measured in your room is correct? You can not answer that without saying that you blindly trust the results. I don't even trust the results of using a $15K measurement rig unless I have become totally familiar with the environment and I can visually examine the actual measurement results... both in the frequency domain and time domain.

Lemme summarize your thoughts on this in this way.

When you're making adjustments to your system as an audio professional (understatement right?), then you're going to trust your expertise over Audyssey. I get that, Dave.

I'm not you. If I'm completely honest about my abilities on balancing/EQ'ing my system, then the only humble result will be allowing Audyssey to do it, and not me.

In short, I'm not saying that you personally cannot do a better job than Audyssey on your system. But I certainly know I cant!

[azanon]

AZ,

Try the sub, or don't try the sub. You want me to be perfectly honest here? I have been holding back out of respect for your sub and if you would like me to actually post frequency response graphs comparing the two, I will. But know that you are asking me to do something that I prefer not too. I have already stated that you have a great subwoofer for its size and price and nobody here is telling you otherwise or trying to sell you anything.

Would you mind emailing them to me if I promise to you to keep them only for myself? You'd have my word. marleiah@hotmail.com

I'll say again - I don't want to win the argument. I want to win "the best sub in my living room". All I've asked for is logical answers to logical questions.

I probably am going to try a Rythmik eventually! I'm down to either that or the ULS-15 (because I want a small sub).

How many subwoofer designers do you know who have a PHD in electrical engineering and a few patents under their belt? Brian's products are not about simply adding more power, more features, bigger woofer with more excursion. That is what the ID subwoofer market has become, except for Rythmik. Show me an example of where I am wrong? Every ID subwoofer that is introduced as the next best thing is nothing more than an improved woofer with a higher wattage amp and a new enclosure with a few more features. There is serious technological advancement with Rythmik subwoofers. If you don't understand the benefits of servo control, I suggest you do a bit more research.

You might not be a fan for new features, but lemme let you in on one feature I recommend Brian not ignoring. Wireless.

If you want to ensure you don't sell a lot of subs a couple of years from now, then definitely delay R&D on wireless technology.

I only have one side of my couch that's an option for a Rythmik because of that wire. With a ULS-15, I can put it pretty much anywhere :-)

Sorry, I don't recommend 100Hz or 120Hz for any subwoofer. Be that your SVS or Rythmik.

I know. Audyssey sometimes does. Can we finally live with this difference of opinion? I have no opinion - merely just observing how one expert's opinion is different than another expert's.

Why do you feel that you have to go with what Audyssey recommends? If that is what you want to do, it is fine by me. I don't recommend such a high crossover point for many reasons but if you like the way it sounds, great. That is really all that matters.

I just want the full EQ enabled, Dave. If you lower the crossover after an Audyssey run, you have no EQ between the original crossover and whatever you set the new crossover to be. An Audyssey representative at AVS has said this several times now.

[Mike^S]

http://www.avforums.com/forums/room-...-question.html

Post #2 in that Thread. The actual representative from Audyssey that he's referring to has posted this several times at AVS. Notice how no one disagreed with him. I"m a bit lazy, and would prefer to not actually find where "Audyssey" stated this directly. But if you still don't believe me, I'll find his direct words if you insist.

In short, Audyssey only EQ's down to the determined crossover.

However, back on another point, "Audyssey" has stated at least a few times that, in most cases, he recommends not lowering the crossover, and that Audyssey usually chooses the correct crossover. But now I'm just restating something I said earlier and we're going circular real fast here.

Well then, it seems Audyssey tech support needs a little more training. I did a little research and it appears Audyssey EQs the main channels down to the -3dB which may or may not be exactly equal to the crossover that is set by the receiver. Hopefully it's close.

[milkfat]

But you dont seem to realize Audyssey didn't set your speakers to large.
Your receiver played all of the part of deciding that.

Go read the Audyssey FAQ.

Apologies. The receiver set my speakers to large.

The sentence you seemed to have missed was the one where I mentioned Audyssey setting a 140hz crossover for my 200se speakers. I checked the Auto EQ and verified that I did not lose EQ between 140hz and 80hz. At least in my receiver Audyssey does not behave as you are describing.

I've gotta admit Matt, at best I would only think its "neat" too, if I was under the impression Audyssey thought my Ascend's were "large" speakers.

I'm impressed that you can "out-EQ" Audyssey. Seriously! I promise no sarcasm, ok? I know I can't out EQ Audyssey, so I don't try. I'm a novice, you guys are the experts!

I make no claim to be an expert or to be able to "out-EQ" Audyssey. Right now Audyssey is working great for me, but I wouldn't rule out attempting my own measurements in the future.

-matt