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Thread: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike^S View Post
    He's running a cheap 8" energy htib sub. Which do you think has better bass?
    I guess the others were too nice to correct you.

    As is clearly shown in my signature, I use a 12" SVS. To answer your question, I know it has better bass than a 340SE. I'm confident it's superior to a Sierra-1 below 100hz as well.

    Although "cheap" is relative, my SVS sub cost $700.

    Who were you thinking of that uses Energy? From my cursory knowledge of Energy, they're not exactly cheap anyway, are they?
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    I have a 12" Rythmik direct servo sub. I would not say the Rythmik would "wipe the floor with Sierra's on bass quality." I think the real benefit of the sub is that it extends the high quality bass of the Sierra's lower, without compromising the sound quality. It opens up the soundstage as well and adds impact to movies.
    To be clear, I didn't mean that as a jab at a Sierra-1. I can't wait until I can budget Sierra's for myself. The Sierra's have plenty of frequency range to be at its best - which ranges from above the sub's specifications to whatever its max range is. - say 100hz to 20K hz. Subs' have an extremely narrow frequency range, but for the range that they do that, I think its only logical that they're going to be better at it - both in terms of quality and output.

    And as Curtis said, why not spread the amp load. That could easily allow for more clear output since the amp will be stressed less.

    My understanding is that the reason people consider crossing at 80, instead of 100 or 120, is because at 100+, your ears begin to gain the ability to localize the source of the sound. NOT because the main can actually produce at more pleasing bass tone than (a quality) sub.
    Last edited by azanon; 01-09-2009 at 10:28 AM.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    I guess the others were too nice to correct you.

    As is clearly shown in my signature, I use a 12" SVS. To answer your question, I know it has better bass than a 340SE. I'm confident it's superior to a Sierra-1 below 100hz as well.

    Although "cheap" is relative, my SVS sub cost $700.

    Who were you thinking of that uses Energy? From my cursory knowledge of Energy, they're not exactly cheap anyway, are they?
    Why don't you try reading the first post in this thread?

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    Some of those experts really are experts though.

    According to Audyssey's head guy, you should let the sub handle the bass well above 60hz in most cases, or at least set the cross higher.
    For the record, I disagree with this statement, provided your loudspeakers can accurately reproduce frequencies a full 1/2 octave below the -3dB crossover point. You are making too many assumptions regarding a subwoofers ability to accurately reproduce frequencies above the -3dB point. Most subwoofers these days use high mass woofers with very low efficiency in order to provide deep bass extension without using a HUGE cabinet. These high mass woofers do a very poor job of reproducing frequencies above 80Hz, often missing these frequencies completely due to the high inertia generated by reproducing a 25Hz (or lower) frequency at high output levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    As you probably know, a crossover isn't an immediate redirection of the sound below that point. A cross of 60hz will still allow much of the bass below 60hz to be sent to the mains.
    This is correct -- the same holds true for the "other" direction Assuming a crossover frequency of 60Hz, there is plenty of high frequency information being reproduced by the subwoofer as well -- and these are difficult for many subs to reproduce. In addition, these higher frequencies become directional and can destroy the soundstage and imaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    Below 80hz especially (I go with 100hz for my 340SE per Audyssey), I tend to think a well-designed sub (like the ones Ascend sells now) will wipe the floor with the Sierra's on bass quality
    I don't agree.... In fact, I would say that a pair of our Sierra-1 will handle bass frequencies down to about 50-55Hz with better transient accuracy than most of today's subwoofers.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike^S View Post
    Why don't you try reading the first post in this thread?
    Maybe pronouns aren't always the best way to go. I'm a "he" too, and you quoted me. I thought you were speaking to others, while referring to me.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    For the record, I disagree with this statement, provided your loudspeakers can accurately reproduce frequencies a full 1/2 octave below the -3dB crossover point. You are making too many assumptions regarding a subwoofers ability to accurately reproduce frequencies above the -3dB point. Most subwoofers these days use high mass woofers with very low efficiency in order to provide deep bass extension without using a HUGE cabinet. These high mass woofers do a very poor job of reproducing frequencies above 80Hz, often missing these frequencies completely due to the high inertia generated by reproducing a 25Hz (or lower) frequency at high output levels.
    You are disagreeing with Audyssey Laboratories, Inc. and their staff, not me. "You" in your second sentence is Audyssey, and I believe they have a representative that's answering questions at AVS. Don't shoot the messenger.

    This is correct -- the same holds true for the "other" direction Assuming a crossover frequency of 60Hz, there is plenty of high frequency information being reproduced by the subwoofer as well -- and these are difficult for many subs to reproduce. In addition, these higher frequencies become directional and can destroy the soundstage and imaging.
    I'm glad you mentioned this, actually.

    I was quite concerned to see in another thread in the Rythmik forum here, that Rythmik was just recently cleared for an 80hz crossover recommendation max, formerly only 60hz.

    If Audyssey is going to consistently give recommendations of 100hz or greater (ive had runs that recommend 120), then I need a sub that's not going to choke on sound in the 80-150hz, or at least one that minimizes sound loss/distortion. In other words, I might be more than willing to live with the fact that my baby sub doesn't play very loud (clearly) on bass below 30db, in exchange for the fact that it's -3db point goes as high as 150hz. From a percentage standpoint, i imagine music/movies play in the 80-150hz range far more often than they do in the sub 30hz range. If i really can't "have it all", I'll take being able to actually use Audyssey correctly, and give a little on "sub human" hearing frequencies.

    I forget the exact reason why (Audyssey could answer this), but if you make an "audyssey run", then subsequently lower the crossover, then you lose all of the corrections between whatever crossover audyssey chose and your revised setting. Audyssey is an impressive balancing technology, and it'd be a shame to not be able to use it because one's sub isn't up to par.

    The top Audyssey guy participating at AVS (sorry, I don't recall his name), said that 100hz or greater on an Audyssey run is "normal/typical" (paraphrasing), and made some comments that, in general, people are crossing over way too low or, in many cases, running full range! (with no crossover)

    I don't agree.... In fact, I would say that a pair of our Sierra-1 will handle bass frequencies down to about 50-55Hz with better transient accuracy than most of today's subwoofers.
    Most quality subs Ive seen (including mine) produce a very flat frequency graph from the top of their spec'ed range to at least 50hz. You don't see the men from the boys in the sub world being separated until at least 40hz. So maybe the Sierra does very well at that range, but I think most any quality sub does too.

    I was thinking about this from an outpoint point of view though. Which will produce cleaner low bass at 105db? Your Sierra's or Sierra's with a 1K dollar sub?
    Last edited by azanon; 01-13-2009 at 09:24 AM.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    That's the beauty of this hobby; you can set up your system however you prefer.

    Audyssey may recommend certain parameters for you to follow, and you are free to adhere to them. If you are happy with the sound, great. Leave it set up that way. I tend to use the auto setup as a starting point and tweak from there. I, personally, do not want my Sierra-1s crossed over above 80hz. I have compared them at 60 and 80 with music, WITH my Rythmik sub, and prefer them at 60hz. I have listened to 2-channel music with the sub, 60hz X-over, and w/out sub running full range. The Sierra-1s (and not generalizing about all speakers) resolve detail better down to their low frequency rolloff than do most subs out there. Probably even better than the Rythmik by a hair.

    And, since Dave F. has most likely listened to, designed and tested more speakers/subs than most of us here, I will give his advice it's due respect.

    C'iao!
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    Audyssey may recommend certain parameters for you to follow, and you are free to adhere to them. If you are happy with the sound, great. Leave it set up that way. I tend to use the auto setup as a starting point and tweak from there.
    but.... if your specifically using Audyssey eq balancing, and then you lower your crossover setting from what Audyssey calculated and use an Audyssey mode to play music, then you're defeating the purpose of the EQ, if you lose all the EQ between the Audyssey crossover, and your new crossover.

    I think it makes sense to either use the Audyssey EQ (correctly) or not use it at all and do your own EQ'ing.

    I, personally, do not want my Sierra-1s crossed over above 80hz. I have compared them at 60 and 80 with music, WITH my Rythmik sub, and prefer them at 60hz.
    Per what I just said in my previous post and according to Brian, and based on what Dave said above, you're right. You don't want to cross THAT sub higher than 80hz. We're not using the same sub. My sub tops out at 150hz, at -3db.

    I've seen some try to poke fun at the SB12 as a mid-bass module. Given that Audyssey is becoming so popular, maybe that's what we need. Maybe folks are focusing way too much on how sub's perform on the lower end of the spectrum and not near enough on how it does at the higher end. Given what Dave said about crossovers (that it goes both ways) and given Audyssey's typical findings, maybe we need 100-200hz performance in our subs.

    And, since Dave F. has most likely listened to, designed and tested more speakers/subs than most of us here, I will give his advice it's due respect.
    Just so my perspective is clear on this, on this particular issue, I see me as having to choose between one expert or another. I don't personally have a dog in this fight, other than having to decide which explanation makes more sense to the extent that the "experts" disagree.

    Again (take two, pop), I'm the messenger here.
    Last edited by azanon; 01-13-2009 at 10:15 AM.
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    Most quality subs Ive seen (including mine) produce a very flat frequency graph from the top of their spec'ed range to at least 50hz.
    If you re-read Dave's statement, he is talking of transient accuracy, not FR.

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    Just so my perspective is clear on this, on this particular issue, I see me as having to choose between one expert or another. I don't personally have a dog in this fight, other than having to decide which explanation makes more sense to the extent that the "experts" disagree.

    Again (take two, pop), I'm the messenger here.
    Then make a decision instead of pitting one against the other. If you don't want to take the time to understand one side, then pick the other.

    You are not being just a messenger in this case. You are stating one side without fully understanding the whole issue. You also must realize, and I am sure that you have read this, that Audyssey is not fool proof all like what it does.

    The bottomline is pick what sounds best to you, because it certainly is not the same for all cases.
    -curtis

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Using Sierra-1s w/ "Small" Subwoofer

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    If you re-read Dave's statement, he is talking of transient accuracy, not FR.
    Even though I'm the one getting the terms wrong, it's semantics in the end.

    I'm with the quality sub over a main at 50hz any day of the week, all aspects of sound considered. BTW, so are you too, unless you want to go back and change a crap-load of posts where you admitted to crossing at 80hz.


    Then make a decision instead of pitting one against the other. If you don't want to take the time to understand one side, then pick the other. If you want to give one side more credit, then oick that side. You are not being just a messenger in this case.
    I have made a decision. You don't see me owning a sub that can't play 120hz without distortion do you?

    And I do understand the other side. As I understand it, "the other side" is the one that won't be using Audyssey correctly - at least with the speakers that I have. I've run Audyssey at least 5 times now, and I've never gotten a result below 100hz crossover. Granted, some of my speakers are HTM-200 SEs.

    Maybe 5 (or 7) Sierra's can "score" 80hz or lower on an Audyssey run. I dunno. Anyone using Audyssey get a result that low (or lower) yet?

    I can usually tell my debate is sound when someone doesn't directly address my reasoning and instead resorts to personal attacks. That's what happening with your remark. If you don't think I understand something specifically, then state what you think that is. I know its asking a lot of you, but if you don't want to address specific points I made, can you kindly just not post at all?
    Sierra-1 - Mains+Center
    Surrounds - HTM200SEs (x4 in back, and x2 Atmos)
    Sub - SVS PB-2000
    Receiver - Onkyo TX-RZ1100
    Oppo Darbee Edition Blue Ray
    Sony 4K blu ray player

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