Why no Hsu?

[muzz]

I've done it before, not normally, but I have when looking for extra output down low, and fidelity wasn't the #1 priority.

Normal setup is small+sub

[azanon]

AZ,

This is the very last time I am going to comment on this. I am not *confused* with regard to how receivers work. I have actually worked with the low-level EEPROM coding on one chipset.

I'm sure you do a lot of stuff with audio equipment that I don't even understand. But be careful about going the route of "appealing to authority" because while I'm not an audio expert, I am pretty well schooled in philosophy including logical fallacies.

It might be the case that on one or more receivers that you have used, the "Large" setting sends bass to the speakers AND sends no signal to the subwoofer. However, I can assure you, that this is NOT the case with all receivers and it was done as a convenience. Personally, I would not purchase this product as I want full control of my audio equipment. I might want to run my speakers full range in combination with my subwoofer (I do this all the time for various testing. Many of our customers are 2-channel purists, they don't have bass management so I need the option of duplicating how their system performs -- speakers full range, subwoofer full range)

Ack - these guys are defending you because I'm Az nobody, and you make wonderful speakers. Oh well, maybe we can still have a discussion anyway.

Its true on all the receivers I've used so far, including Harmons. I never said that these same receivers can't also be set to play full range bass over the top of mains set to large. I just said its not the default setting. But again, WITH ASCENDS, who's doing that?

Fact: On my Rotel pre-processor, my Pioneer, my Panasonic AND my H/K. The "large" setting is entirely independent of the subwoofer. The "Large\Small" setting was created as part of the Dolby Digital bass management specification some 20 years ago (maybe even more, can’t remember the year?). I was there during the preliminary design of the specification when Pro-Logic thankfully faded away (the company I worked for was close with Dolby Labs, we actually introduced the very first THX certified loudspeaker.)
From my H/K AVR-354 manual:

"Sub Mode
Move the cursor to the Sub Mode line to program bass management
for the subwoofer. The subwoofer’s setting depends upon how you
programmed the front left and right speakers.
• If you set the front speakers to a numeric crossover frequency, the
subwoofer setting will be LFE, and you won’t be able to change it.
All low-frequency information will always be sent to the subwoofer.
If you don’t have a subwoofer, we recommend that you either
upgrade to full-range speakers or add a subwoofer to your system
at the earliest opportunity.
• If you set the front speakers to LARGE, you may select between
two possible settings for the subwoofer.
L/R+LFE: This setting sends all low-frequency information to
the subwoofer, including both information that would normally be played through the front left and right speakers and the special
low-frequency effects (LFE) channel information.
LFE: This setting plays low-frequency information contained in the
left and right program channels to the front speakers, and directs
only the LFE channel information to the subwoofer."

This is how many receivers handle bass management now. The Large setting does exactly what the specification calls for. It sends bass to the speakers. You then have the option of sending all low frequency content to the subwoofer or just the LFE channel. My H/K defaults to L/R+LFE so if you don't want your sub to receive a signal, you must make two seperate selections (one to enable/disable the speaker high-pass filter (small or large) and then select one setting for the sub)

I don't disagree with any of this. That must mean the writings on the wall; we had a semantics argument. Still, if someone using Ascends says anywhere they're "running them large", lets all hope speaker+sub isn't on. I assumed all the folks here aren't doing that with their Ascends. I see I was probably too generous in my assumptions.

I'll have to take you at your word your specific Harmon defaults to overlapping the bass from the sub to the mains when you go with the large setting. Maybe Harmon's wised up with the newer models and are protecting customers from themselves now. None of the receivers I've owned so far default that way.

2-ch music does not have an LFE channel so if and only if you *also* set your subwoofer to LFE, will the sub not receive a signal. What subwoofer mode the receiver defaults to does not matter in this discussion because what bass the subwoofer receives is indeed determined by an additional setting (not just the speaker size)

Right on that first point, and semantics probable again on the second. Again, Dave, if you tell me you like to run your Sierra-1's "Large", I give you - especially you - the benefit of the doubt that says by that you will make sure and not have "speaker+sub" set.

On my Rotel, subwoofer options and loudspeaker options are completely independent of each other. The Large setting sends full range to the speakers and full range to the sub. If I don't want a doubling of bass, I must go into the menu and turn my subwoofer to "off".

I'm not familar with Rotels; only the 3 different brands of receivers I've owned so far. On all, they had "sub" and "speaker+sub", and "sub" is always default if you set any of the speakers to large.

You are making an assumption that the "Large" setting for speakers means that the subwoofer does not receive a signal. I am telling you that this is not always the case and I am quite confident that I have just a slight bit more experience in this than you

And in summary, I am telling you that I've always known that you can set speakers to "large" and still direct the sub to also duplicate those lows as you just said. I'm also telling you, in summary, that for all Ascend users, I assume that when they say they like to run their Sierra-1's "large", that they are telling me they like it to play all of the lows BY ITSELF, WITHOUT the sub's help. Again, as you said in this thread, you highly recommend against duplicating the lows with the sub.

You appealed to authority again - btw

Take this for what it is worth, I might be *confused* about many things , but not audio. Is it possible that you might be wrong or that you have been making wrong assumptions? If no, there is nothing more to discuss regarding this. If yes, I would be more then happy to discuss in further detail with you, should you have any questions.

Happy Thanksgiving to All!

Then you've reached the nirava of audio. I have a MA in biology, and make intellectual biological related mistakes all the time.

But you want pure honestly, I've read this thread carefully, and didn't learn anything new. Ok, well, maybe I learned what your Rotel manual says, but lets not split hairs. Neither did you I presume. So wow, we waited a lot of time, lol.

[azanon]

Normal setup is small+sub

By default on yours too? Cool, I guess.

Sorry if I gave a mistaken impression that I claimed somewhere that this is never the default on any receiver. I never said that, and never would.

[Mike^S]

AZ, this all started because you said that Dave was unclear when he said that he recommends running the Sierras as large with no subwoofer. And you said that he needs to clarify what he said and that he needs to read the manual for the receiver.

The fact is that Dave was not being unclear. I am not defending him. I'm just stating facts. There is nothing wrong with Dave's statement that he recommends running the Sierras as large with no sub. Nobody is arguing that large + sub is the way proper way to run Ascends or any other speakers. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that.

The problem is that you are the one who is assuming that everyone who reads the statement "set speakers to large" knows that they should turn their subwoofer off. And this is completely wrong. Not everyone knows that. Just because large + sub is not the default option in a receiver doesn't mean that people don't have it set that way.

For someone who claims to be so intelligent (well schooled in logical fallacies), you sure make a lot of assumptions.

[azanon]

That's fair, but I think you are the only one that felt that need.

I think what you're implying has less to do with it, and more to do with a rare personality I have. Keep trying though!

[azanon]

uh huh, so what if somebody is buying Ascend speakers for the first time and doesn't know that you shouldn't run Ascend speakers as large + sub. What's wrong with Dave clarifying that in his statement?

My point was he didn't clarify it originally by flippantly saying he runs his Sierra-1's large in another unrelated thread. Sure, he's more than clarified that here and that's more than welcome. I'm enjoying our (Dave's) discussion.

And who says you have to be dumb to run speakers as large + sub? Not everybody is an audiophile. I'm sure that are many smart lawyers and doctors who have no idea how to operate a home theater system.

You're taking me on a tangent that I don't think I went. My Ascends came with a brief 4-5 page insert that, going on memory, had specific information about how to set these up. I believe it even included the very information pertaining to this discussion to help avoid "doctors and lawyers" from making this error.

I would personally never recommend that anyone run large + sub, but I know that there are plenty of people out there who are running their system exactly like that.

Neither would I.

[Mike^S]

OMG, AZ is actually Craigsub!

[muzz]

heheheheh

[curtis]

I think what you're implying has less to do with it, and more to do with a rare personality I have. Keep trying though!

Actually, depending how you look at that statement, I think we are in agreement.

[azanon]

The problem is that you are the one who is assuming that everyone who reads the statement "set speakers to large" knows that they should turn their subwoofer off. And this is completely wrong. Not everyone knows that. Just because large + sub is not the default option in a receiver doesn't mean that people don't have it set that way.

You've missed summarized my entire points. "I" assumed that's what Dave meant, because "I" know that if Dave is running a Sierra-1 large, he would hopefully ensure the sub isn't duplicating the lows.

I'm asking for me, and me alone.

For someone who claims to be so intelligent (well schooled in logical fallacies), you sure make a lot of assumptions.

You mean I give benefit of the doubt sometimes when it isn't deserved. I don't think that's such a bad error to make when you think about it, .......... do you?