Why no Hsu?

[lenjack]

I'm the original poster. Certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. We seem to have drifted WAY off topic. I have a 10 year old Hsu 10 incher which is doing vey well. I have heard the newer models, and haven't heard the boominess referred to on any of the Hsu's. I have not heard the Rythmik's.

[davef]

He's the one responsible for the confusion. As you summarized and as I stated in length, "large" means no subwoofer runs whether you have one or not. So if David F. or any audio hobbyist says they prefer to "run a speaker large", they are saying - whether they realize it or not - that they like to use it without a subwoofer. David has told us he has a sub in his house, so I and everyone else was assuming he has a great sub, but he still prefers to play the Sierra-1 without it.

AZ,

This is the very last time I am going to comment on this. I am not *confused* with regard to how receivers work. I have actually worked with the low-level EEPROM coding on one chipset.

It might be the case that on one or more receivers that you have used, the "Large" setting sends bass to the speakers AND sends no signal to the subwoofer. However, I can assure you, that this is NOT the case with all receivers and it was done as a convenience. Personally, I would not purchase this product as I want full control of my audio equipment. I might want to run my speakers full range in combination with my subwoofer (I do this all the time for various testing. Many of our customers are 2-channel purists, they don't have bass management so I need the option of duplicating how their system performs -- speakers full range, subwoofer full range)

Fact: On my Rotel pre-processor, my Pioneer, my Panasonic AND my H/K. The "large" setting is entirely independent of the subwoofer. The "Large\Small" setting was created as part of the Dolby Digital bass management specification some 20 years ago (maybe even more, can’t remember the year?). I was there during the preliminary design of the specification when Pro-Logic thankfully faded away (the company I worked for was close with Dolby Labs, we actually introduced the very first THX certified loudspeaker.)

From my H/K AVR-354 manual:

"Sub Mode
Move the cursor to the Sub Mode line to program bass management
for the subwoofer. The subwoofer’s setting depends upon how you
programmed the front left and right speakers.
• If you set the front speakers to a numeric crossover frequency, the
subwoofer setting will be LFE, and you won’t be able to change it.
All low-frequency information will always be sent to the subwoofer.
If you don’t have a subwoofer, we recommend that you either
upgrade to full-range speakers or add a subwoofer to your system
at the earliest opportunity.
• If you set the front speakers to LARGE, you may select between
two possible settings for the subwoofer.
L/R+LFE: This setting sends all low-frequency information to
the subwoofer, including both information that would normally be played through the front left and right speakers and the special
low-frequency effects (LFE) channel information.
LFE: This setting plays low-frequency information contained in the
left and right program channels to the front speakers, and directs
only the LFE channel information to the subwoofer."

This is how many receivers handle bass management now. The Large setting does exactly what the specification calls for. It sends bass to the speakers. You then have the option of sending all low frequency content to the subwoofer or just the LFE channel. My H/K defaults to L/R+LFE so if you don't want your sub to receive a signal, you must make two seperate selections (one to enable/disable the speaker high-pass filter (small or large) and then select one setting for the sub)

2-ch music does not have an LFE channel so if and only if you *also* set your subwoofer to LFE, will the sub not receive a signal. What subwoofer mode the receiver defaults to does not matter in this discussion because what bass the subwoofer receives is indeed determined by an additional setting (not just the speaker size)

On my Rotel, subwoofer options and loudspeaker options are completely independent of each other. The Large setting sends full range to the speakers and full range to the sub. If I don't want a doubling of bass, I must go into the menu and turn my subwoofer to "off".

From my Rotel manual:

"FRONT SPEAKERS (small/large): This menu setting determines what kind of main front left and right speakers you are using. Use the LARGE setting to have the front speakers play low bass. Use the SMALL setting to redirect normal bass away from these speakers to a subwoofer.

SUBWOOFER (yes/no/max): Use the YES setting if your system has a subwoofer. If your system does not have a subwoofer, select NO. Select the MAX setting to redirect all low frequency information from all speakers (including LARGE speakers) to the subwoofer. This will give you maximum bass performance with normal bass information being played by both the subwoofer and any LARGE speakers in the system."

How the receiver handles bass management is dependent upon which chipset the receiver is using and which version of the chipset.

You are making an assumption that the "Large" setting for speakers means that the subwoofer does not receive a signal. I am telling you that this is not always the case and I am quite confident that I have just a slight bit more experience in this than you

Take this for what it is worth, I might be *confused* about many things , but not audio. Is it possible that you might be wrong or that you have been making wrong assumptions? If no, there is nothing more to discuss regarding this. If yes, I would be more then happy to discuss in further detail with you, should you have any questions.

Happy Thanksgiving to All!

[davef]

I'm the original poster. Certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. We seem to have drifted WAY off topic. I have a 10 year old Hsu 10 incher which is doing vey well. I have heard the newer models, and haven't heard the boominess referred to on any of the Hsu's. I have not heard the Rythmik's.

Hi lenjack,

Hsu subwoofers are excellent and your VTF-2 was one of the most impressive bang for buck subwoofers I have ever heard (and still is)

We stopped selling Hsu because Dr. Hsu's margins were shrinking (as have everyone's) and he felt it best to concentrate on direct sales only (no resellers etc.) We were Hsu's largest US reseller and I still recommend his subwoofers on a daily basis

The Rythmik's are a different beast entirely and are a better match in sound quality to our Sierra-1.

[Gov]

WOW what a thread!!! But, I am still gonna run "small" and cross at 80hz

[azanon]

So after what has been posted in this thread, you are still confused?

I've provided nothing but guidance in this thread. Shouldn't I be the one asking is someone is still confused or not?

[azanon]

Actually, there are many people who like to run their speakers as LARGE WITH A SUBWOOFER. Sumiko, the company that imports and markets Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustics speakers recommends running nearly all of their speakers this way.

What I am confused about is why you are so confused. What DaveF has said make perfect sense to me.

Many people, but Dave himself (earlier) said he doesn't not recommend that and gave reasons why (which would be consistent with reasons I might give).

I never stated though that it would always be a wrong choice, otherwise the receiver wouldn't give you that option in the first place. Granted, this is probably never (to my knowledge) the default option for obvious reasons.

Curtis (and now you) said I am confused. I never said that. I specifically addressed all of Dave's comments that I thought needed addressing.

[azanon]

NO IT DOESN'T. How do you know how many people are using sub+speaker? Not everyone is an audiophile. In fact a lot of people think that they should set the speakers to large especially if they have floor standing speakers. Then when their sub doesn't play, they go and turn on sub+speaker. I work in the audio industry. A LOT of people do this.

Obviously I can't deny it doesn't mean that to Dave, since he's already admitted it doesn't to him.

NOW I KNOW when I say I'm running my Ascends large, there's going to be a certain percentage of you that will think I'm dumb enough to set my sub to play the same lows, and that I'm not necessarily saying I'm not duplicating the lows with my sub.

MIKE, we're talking about Ascends here, not some other speakers where it might be appropriate to run "speaker+sub". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't an Ascend speaker yet given any sub where a "speaker+sub" setting would be appropriate or recommended. Since we were specifically talking about Ascend speakers, "large" should always mean "full-range, no sub"

[curtis]

Curtis (and now you) said I am confused. I never said that. I specifically addressed all of Dave's comments that I thought needed addressing.

That's fair, but I think you are the only one that felt that need.

[davef]

Azanon is correct.

In general, running speakers as large (full range) with your subwoofer also receiving a signal is incorrect -- even if you are using large floorstanding speakers.

There may be specific situations when someone might want to run both the speakers and subwoofer full range, but for general listening (music and hometheater), it is not advised.

[Mike^S]

Obviously I can't deny it doesn't mean that to Dave, since he's already admitted it doesn't to him.

NOW I KNOW when I say I'm running my Ascends large, there's going to be a certain percentage of you that will think I'm dumb enough to set my sub to play the same lows, and that I'm not necessarily saying I'm not duplicating the lows with my sub.

MIKE, we're talking about Ascends here, not some other speakers where it might be appropriate to run "speaker+sub". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't an Ascend speaker yet given any sub where a "speaker+sub" setting would be appropriate or recommended. Since we were specifically talking about Ascend speakers, "large" should always mean "full-range, no sub"

uh huh, so what if somebody is buying Ascend speakers for the first time and doesn't know that you shouldn't run Ascend speakers as large + sub. What's wrong with Dave clarifying that in his statement?

And who says you have to be dumb to run speakers as large + sub? Not everybody is an audiophile. I'm sure that are many smart lawyers and doctors who have no idea how to operate a home theater system.

I would personally never recommend that anyone run large + sub, but I know that there are plenty of people out there who are running their system exactly like that.