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Thread: Why no Hsu?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Again, I never suggested (nor would I) to use the 340 (or any loudspeaker) as large when used together WITH a subwoofer. The balance compromise you mentioned occurs when both the speakers and the subwoofer are playing the same frequency range. This occurs when using a subwoofer and setting the speakers to large. Your above statement suggests that I am in favor of this balance compromise, and as I mentioned -- my design philosophy for the past 26 years has always been for accurate frequency response and accurate phase.
    We're still getting lost in semantics.

    I'm not saying you ever said or suggested for a main and sub to be set to play the same frequency range of music at the same time. Call that whatever you want.

    When I hear someone suggest use "large" setting for a speaker, I assume someone is saying to set the receiver to have the sub cut off for all frequency ranges for speakers set to "large" unless they say otherwise. To me, running a speaker with "large" setting means setting it, and it alone, to play the full spectrum of sound and for the sub to play nothing for that channel, regardless whether you have a sub or not.


    Entirely dependent on the receiver. In my experience, setting speakers to large simply sends the full range signal to the speaker, this is entirely independent of what low frequency information is sent to the subwoofer (sub still receives low frequency information)
    I’ve owned 3 receivers so far, one of them being a H/K in the same line you sell. All three behave as I describe. “large” sends the full range to the main, and the sub default setting is to play none of the material for every speaker that’s set to large.

    In other words, on your receiver -- if you set a specific speaker to large, no signal from that particular channel is sent to the subwoofer? I don't believe this to be the case, but if it is, then no signal to the subwoofer equals no subwoofer in use which is equivalent of not having a subwoofer.
    This is exactly correct. Lets give an easy example here. If you have your Sierra-1's set to "large" on your receiver right now, and you play a CD in stereo, and output it in stereo, and you do have a sub, then your sub will not play at all. Even if you put a hip-hop CD in there. Yes, in this example, it would be like you don't have a sub even though you do.

    The sub plays, in short: 1. All content below the crossover for every speaker set to small and 2. The LFE channel for content with an LFE channel. 3. Nothing else

    Again, yes, most all receivers HAVE a setting where you can tell the sub to play everything regardless of the large vs. small setting on individual speakers, but as you've already said and I agree with, that's always a poor choice and anyone using that choice is going to have messed up/duplicated sound in the lower frequencies.

    I think you might be assuming that if you set your speakers to large, then the receiver sends a full range signal to the speakers and because the speakers can only play down to a certain frequency, that the subwoofer will play only those frequencies that your speakers are not capable of reproducing. This is not how it works -- your receiver does not know what the capabilities of your speakers or subwoofer is.p
    I never said that and definitely disagree with that. If you're not saying that either, then lets drop that one.

    When set to large, the receiver does not control the integration between speakers and sub.
    Exactly, because with large, the receiver simply sends the entirety of the music content to the mains.... for that channel. The sub gets nothing from that channel (again, unless you have the "speaker + sub" setting enabled for the sub)

    Yes, I prefer the Sierra-1's on large but that is with no subwoofer, of which I have referenced in dozens of posts.

    I apologize if you have drawn the wrong conclusions from both mine and others posts.

    NO subwoofer = set speakers to large
    With subwoofer = set speakers to small, use an 80 or 60Hz crossover point.
    Large means no subwoofer. Lets be clear here, I haven't drawn any wrong conclusions. When you say run a speaker large, - to audio hobbyists they are going to presume you're essentially saying to run them full range. That's interchangeable because, again, almost no one uses the "sub+speaker" setting on their receiver because most audiophiles aren't going to want to have their bass duplicated.
    Last edited by azanon; 11-26-2008 at 06:16 PM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If you mean by setting Sierra-1 to large that the subwoofer will be turned off entirely, than yes, I might recommend this setting.
    Per my other thread, I would not mean anything else if i said set a speaker to large.

    Again, I probably haven't logged as much time at AVS as you or Curtis, but I have been there long enough to know when someone mentions recommending running a speaker large, they are essentially saying run the speaker full range and cut the sub completely out of the equation.

    To avoid confusion to others, it would be useful to not make the assumption that setting the receiver to "large" turns off the subwoofer.
    Outright "turn it off?" No, of course not. It does tells the sub to not play content from that channel. I'm completely certain of this again, unless you manually change the default sub setting to "sub+main". I can vouch for this on Marantz, H/K, and Sony. To be completely honest, I'd be surprised if its different on any other receiver.


    I suggest stating it in this manner, "speakers to large, subwoofer turned off" To myself and many others, speakers to large is interpreted to mean that the speakers are full range and the subwoofer remains active.
    If a speaker is playing full range, you certainly don't want the sub playing the same content on that same channel! You agreed with this earlier. Man, make up your mind. Of course I"m not saying "large" completely turns the sub off. Maybe you have LFE content. Maybe you have small surround sounds set to small that it can play all content below the crossover point.

    But sure, if you're just playing a music CD, and your mains are on large, and you output stereo, the sub will not play at all.

    If speakers are set to large and subwoofer remains active, than I do not agree with your post.
    I have hope we'll get on the same page before this is over. Disagreeing on something like this would be like disagreeing that there's nitrogen in our atmosphere.

    When used together with any subwoofer, Sierra-1 = small. It is even more important with the Sierra-1 because the Sierra-1 has deep bass response so there would be more frequency overlap between the sub and speaker.
    speaker+sub is not the default receiver setting so no one's going to have this problem unless they specifically override the default receiver setting. Again, you can set a receiver to send a full range of content to a given speaker (and by default, none of that same content to the sub), yet still have the sub sent content for the other channels set to small + have the sub play all LFE content.

    ...............

    One other things also definitely true no matter how much of this I end up being shown to be right on. You make awesome speakers. But to be honest, I am completely not believing that you're this confused about how receivers work.
    Last edited by azanon; 11-26-2008 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Unless the sub setting on the receiver is set to "sub+plus mains", the "large" setting means that signals sent to the main speakers below the crossover point are not sent to the subwoofer. Otherwise, when set to large, no signal from those channels are sent to the sub.....hence the sub is inactive for those channels.

    The setting of "small" always implies that the signal below the crossover point is sent to the sub.

    I am not sure I see what the confusion is. I don't recall Dave or anyone suggesting that if a good sub was available to run the 340SE's as large and not use the sub. The Sierras also benefit from a good subwoofer.
    -curtis

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    But to be honest, I am completely not believing that you're this confused about how receivers work.
    David is not only not confused about how receivers work but incredibly patient and accomodating to posters.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    Unless the sub setting on the receiver is set to "sub+plus mains", the "large" setting means that signals sent to the main speakers below the crossover point are not sent to the subwoofer. Otherwise, when set to large, no signal from those channels are sent to the sub.....hence the sub is inactive for those channels.

    The setting of "small" always implies that the signal below the crossover point is sent to the sub.
    100% correct. Thanks for the summary

    I am not sure I see what the confusion is. I don't recall Dave or anyone suggesting that if a good sub was available to run the 340SE's as large and not use the sub. The Sierras also benefit from a good subwoofer.
    The confusion.... Curtis.... is when David says things like the following - this stated in THIS thread:

    David F, "Yes, I prefer the Sierra-1's on large but that is with no subwoofer, of which I have referenced in dozens of posts."

    He's the one responsible for the confusion. As you summarized and as I stated in length, "large" means no subwoofer runs whether you have one or not. So if David F. or any audio hobbyist says they prefer to "run a speaker large", they are saying - whether they realize it or not - that they like to use it without a subwoofer. David has told us he has a sub in his house, so I and everyone else was assuming he has a great sub, but he still prefers to play the Sierra-1 without it.

    It wouldn't make any sense (because it would go without saying) to say you prefer to run a speaker large if you didn't have a subwoofer in the first place. As David already conceded, its simply wrong to set a speaker to small if you have no sub, regardless of the performance of the main.

    .......

    I agree David - the readers deserve the confusion to be cleared up. And you're the one that needs to do it. You're a workaholic on making those speakers. Take a day off, grab your receiver manual at home and, as they say,..... RTFM. With love and happy thanksgiving, Az.
    Last edited by azanon; 11-27-2008 at 07:04 AM.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    So after what has been posted in this thread, you are still confused?
    -curtis

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    i thought azanon and i had cleared this up like 10 posts ago! Everyone is saying (essentially) the same thing!

    I think Dave is saying it is more clear to say I am running my fronts set to large, no subwoofer. I think Azanon is saying that when you say I am running my fronts set to large, it is exactly equivalent to what Dave said, but the no subwoofer part doesn't need to be said because when an AVR is just set to large, no signal is sent to the sub. I think Azanon is saying that the only time a reader would assume both the fronts and a sub are both replicating the lower frequencies if you say I am running my fronts set to large, plus a subwoofer. I think Dave is saying that when he hears I am running my fronts set to large, he thinks it could mean large + sub.

    Maybe we can agree that in most receivers, large means full signal to mains, no sub, but that just saying my fronts are set to large does not always mean the person knows what they are talking about so it's more clear to say fronts set to large, no subwoofer (or subwoofer off).

    Happy Thanksgiving! Do I win?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    My newest favorite phrase is cluster f**k, it seems appropriate in this thread.
    My vote is that ebh wins.

    Jim

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    100% correct. Thanks for the summary



    The confusion.... Curtis.... is when David says things like the following - this stated in THIS thread:

    David F, "Yes, I prefer the Sierra-1's on large but that is with no subwoofer, of which I have referenced in dozens of posts."

    He's the one responsible for the confusion. As you summarized and as I stated in length, "large" means no subwoofer runs whether you have one or not. So if David F. or any audio hobbyist says they prefer to "run a speaker large", they are saying - whether they realize it or not - that they like to use it without a subwoofer. David has told us he has a sub in his house, so I and everyone else was assuming he has a great sub, but he still prefers to play the Sierra-1 without it.

    It wouldn't make any sense (because it would go without saying) to say you prefer to run a speaker large if you didn't have a subwoofer in the first place. As David already conceded, its simply wrong to set a speaker to small if you have no sub, regardless of the performance of the main.

    .......

    I agree David - the readers deserve the confusion to be cleared up. And you're the one that needs to do it. You're a workaholic on making those speakers. Take a day off, grab your receiver manual at home and, as they say,..... RTFM. With love and happy thanksgiving, Az.


    Actually, there are many people who like to run their speakers as LARGE WITH A SUBWOOFER. Sumiko, the company that imports and markets Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustics speakers recommends running nearly all of their speakers this way.

    What I am confused about is why you are so confused. What DaveF has said make perfect sense to me.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Why no Hsu?

    Quote Originally Posted by azanon View Post
    We're still getting lost in semantics.

    Large means no subwoofer. Lets be clear here, I haven't drawn any wrong conclusions. When you say run a speaker large, - to audio hobbyists they are going to presume you're essentially saying to run them full range. That's interchangeable because, again, almost no one uses the "sub+speaker" setting on their receiver because most audiophiles aren't going to want to have their bass duplicated.
    NO IT DOESN'T. How do you know how many people are using sub+speaker? Not everyone is an audiophile. In fact a lot of people think that they should set the speakers to large especially if they have floor standing speakers. Then when their sub doesn't play, they go and turn on sub+speaker. I work in the audio industry. A LOT of people do this.

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