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Thread: Let’s talk subwoofers...

  1. #171
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    Aug 2003
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    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gov View Post
    I think these Rythmik subs are probably top notch in the music department, and average in output for HT from what I can tell. Please correct me if I am wrong. What kind of output do that have @ 20hz?
    You are wrong Curious as to how you would come to that conclusion?

    Here are are ground plane maximum clean output measurements of a variety of subwoofers, including an older version of the 12" Rythmik sub. These measurements were taken outside in an open field with a mic distance of 2 meters. (Kudos to Iikka Rissanen)



    You can expect as much as 6-8dB more output in-room.

    Notice that the Rythmik averaged 104.1 dB. That is only 1dB less than what both the SVS 20-39 PC+ (12Hz tune) and Hsu VTF3-MK3 averaged. Look at the size difference between these subwoofers, this is comparing large ported subwoofers with a sealed sub less than half the size. This is extremely impressive output. It is only about 5dB less than the SVS PB-13 Ultra measured in sealed mode, to keep things equal.

    If you add the 3-4 dB more output the 15" will deliver, we are within 3dB of the formidable JL Audio F113, even at 12.5Hz!

    What kind of output do that have @ 20hz?
    What type of measurement? What microphone distance? Inside or outside? Ground plane or anechoic? Peak output or continuous? Continous tone or impulse? I can answer your question with nearly any arbitrary number and it would be correct. I can say 120dB output at 20Hz and it would be correct. I can say 90dB output at 20Hz and it would be correct. It is equivalent of me asking you, how much beer can you consume (you say, "lots" but there is no frame of reference to compare) More detail is needed and in addition, do you know what output levels (in dB) you presently listen at and what you consider to be adequate/loud/too loud?

    I am not trying to sell you anything here, if you knew what our profit margins are on these you would wonder why we are even bothering. These subs are the real deal -- 'nuff said.
    .
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #172
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Fair Oaks, Ca
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    211

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Congrats on the sub release Dave, and for all of your info!!
    How you found the time and energy to keep this all going at this point in your busy life is simply beyond me!
    I am not able to purchase a sub now, but maybe for my 50th B-day next year.

    Peace,
    Jim

  3. #173
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    NW Burbs of Chgo, IL USA
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    376

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Dave, I'm sold
    Thanks for that lesson. That 15" black oak is looking mighty fine.
    I think it will run circles around my Mirage then.
    L/R - Sierra Towers
    Center - Sierra Horizon Tower
    Surrounds - 200SE
    SW - Dual PSA XV15's
    TV - Panasonic TC-P65VT60
    A/V Receiver - Denon AVR-4311CI
    Blu-ray/DVD - Sony BDP-S5100
    DVR STB - Motorola Arris X1

  4. #174
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Boy it make me feel good to always see my sub in the top of these kinds of lists all the time. Actually 4 times in this list....

    (pb13ultra)

    I wish I had that patience to wait though, I would have liked having the choice between the SVS and the ascend finished ascend/rythmik. I actually wanted to go the DIY rythmik route, but my time is limited this year with work, I just couldn't take on the project. The SVS was highly reviewed and was plug and play, and the b-stock was priced right.

  5. #175
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    Yes, I have what I think is the equivalent of the F15. For my room and needs.....about 2300cu/ft.

    If price was no concern, I would go for a JL F113. The fit and finish on the JL subs are incredible.

    But for my budget and purposes, the sub that offers the highest value is the Rythmik 15" at $990 shipped, and can't be passed up.

    The D15SE caught my eye, but would look out of place in my room.
    Hey Curtis,

    My listening area is 21L x 13W x 11H so about 3003 cu/ft. But the whole condo is one open space. That's why I've plan on getting pairs for my next purpose as I don't feel the PC plus really fills the room.

    So I take it you would take the Rythmik 15" over the ULS-15. I am curious though. The F15 is rated at 370W using Class A/B amp. The ULS-15 uses a 1000W Bash amp. My understanding is a higher power amp is needed in a sealed box to match the SPL of a similar designed ported model. So in a way, if I went from a ported model of 525W to a 1000W sealed model, I can expect about the same. But the Rythmik now only has 370W in a sealed box, wouldn't I lose a LOT of that power/punch? There must be a reason why you're satisfied going from the HSU to F15 and completely satisfied. So the only thing I can think of is the difference between a BASH amp vs a Class A/B amp.

    Dave, PLEASE make the F15's in PB finish. As soon as they're available, I will pick up a pair. Brian mentioned they are evaluating this possibility but doesn't know what driver and amp to use. Wouldn't it just use the same hardware currently in the F15 or D15's? I thought it would only be a matter of finish?

  6. #176
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    119

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake1214 View Post
    Hey Curtis,

    My listening area is 21L x 13W x 11H so about 3003 cu/ft. But the whole condo is one open space. That's why I've plan on getting pairs for my next purpose as I don't feel the PC plus really fills the room.

    So I take it you would take the Rythmik 15" over the ULS-15. I am curious though. The F15 is rated at 370W using Class A/B amp. The ULS-15 uses a 1000W Bash amp. My understanding is a higher power amp is needed in a sealed box to match the SPL of a similar designed ported model. So in a way, if I went from a ported model of 525W to a 1000W sealed model, I can expect about the same. But the Rythmik now only has 370W in a sealed box, wouldn't I lose a LOT of that power/punch? There must be a reason why you're satisfied going from the HSU to F15 and completely satisfied. So the only thing I can think of is the difference between a BASH amp vs a Class A/B amp.

    Dave, PLEASE make the F15's in PB finish. As soon as they're available, I will pick up a pair. Brian mentioned they are evaluating this possibility but doesn't know what driver and amp to use. Wouldn't it just use the same hardware currently in the F15 or D15's? I thought it would only be a matter of finish?
    i'm just guessing here, but the "servo" design is likely more effiecnt, hence uses less power.

  7. #177
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    Aug 2003
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    Manhattan Beach, California
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    7,032

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake1214 View Post
    Hey Curtis,

    My listening area is 21L x 13W x 11H so about 3003 cu/ft. But the whole condo is one open space. That's why I've plan on getting pairs for my next purpose as I don't feel the PC plus really fills the room.

    So I take it you would take the Rythmik 15" over the ULS-15. I am curious though. The F15 is rated at 370W using Class A/B amp. The ULS-15 uses a 1000W Bash amp. My understanding is a higher power amp is needed in a sealed box to match the SPL of a similar designed ported model. So in a way, if I went from a ported model of 525W to a 1000W sealed model, I can expect about the same. But the Rythmik now only has 370W in a sealed box, wouldn't I lose a LOT of that power/punch? There must be a reason why you're satisfied going from the HSU to F15 and completely satisfied. So the only thing I can think of is the difference between a BASH amp vs a Class A/B amp.
    For pure sound quality, I would go Rythmik. The Hsu sounds great too, with maybe a tad more output.

    Amp ratings do not mean a whole lot without putting the overall design of the sub into the equation, especially the efficiency of the driver. Also, the 1000W amp rating on the Hsu is not continuous.
    -curtis

  8. #178
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    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake1214 View Post
    So I take it you would take the Rythmik 15" over the ULS-15. I am curious though. The F15 is rated at 370W using Class A/B amp. The ULS-15 uses a 1000W Bash amp. My understanding is a higher power amp is needed in a sealed box to match the SPL of a similar designed ported model.
    That ULS-15 amp is rated at 1000 watts peak (short term). 370 watts RMS is well over 500 watts peak. In addition, driver efficiency is very important. XBL^2 woofers are typically very inefficient -- if there is a 3dB difference in efficiency between the 15" woofer in the Rythmik and the 15" woofer in the Hsu (for example, 86dB for the Hsu, 89dB for Rythmik), power between the two is technically equal. In addition, a true class A/B is far more dynamic than any BASH amp I have experienced... Nothing against BASH, they are a good solution for high-powered subwoofer amps - but they are not at the same level of audio quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake1214 View Post
    Dave, PLEASE make the F15's in PB finish. As soon as they're available, I will pick up a pair. Brian mentioned they are evaluating this possibility but doesn't know what driver and amp to use. Wouldn't it just use the same hardware currently in the F15 or D15's? I thought it would only be a matter of finish?
    I will make sure it happens. It will take some time though.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  9. #179
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    82

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    That ULS-15 amp is rated at 1000 watts peak (short term). 370 watts RMS is well over 500 watts peak. In addition, driver efficiency is very important. XBL^2 woofers are typically very inefficient -- if there is a 3dB difference in efficiency between the 15" woofer in the Rythmik and the 15" woofer in the Hsu (for example, 86dB for the Hsu, 89dB for Rythmik), power between the two is technically equal. In addition, a true class A/B is far more dynamic than any BASH amp I have experienced... Nothing against BASH, they are a good solution for high-powered subwoofer amps - but they are not at the same level of audio quality.

    ahhh....It says 1000W with RMS in brackets, so I kept thinking that is continous. Shows you how little I know about the technical aspects. But I do know a good pair of speakers when I hear one!!


    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I will make sure it happens. It will take some time though.
    That will be truly awesome.

    Dave, I am curious though. Was your original plan to design and manufacture your own sub or did you plan on partnering up with others all along? When you first announced the idea of the sub, I thought we were going to see a sub under the Ascend name. Did you put in the R&D from scratch and later realized the Rythmik sub was basically the sub you would've came up with? I mean either way, a good product is a good product. I was just curious on why you ended choosing this route instead of building one from scratch.

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