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Thread: Let’s talk subwoofers...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,538

    Post Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Ok guys, I feel it is quite obvious to many of you that I am working on something with regard to subwoofers. While I feel I know what Ascend customers want, before I *finalize* our direction I wanted to get some feedback from as many of you as possible.

    I have a few different designs at this point and I want to see which design, based on your feedback, comes closest to the priorities that you want. I won’t be sharing the actual designs at this point in time, the subwoofer market has become far too competitive to discuss this information, but your feedback here will decide our direction as we move forward and inch closer…

    Please see the below list of subwoofer characteristics. They are in no particular order. Please reply and rank them in the order of your personal priorities for a quality Ascend Acoustics subwoofer. Please list each of them in the order of their importance to you (top to bottom etc.).

    • Sound Quality (characterized by low distortion, accurate transient response and linear frequency response)

    • Output capabilities (able to maintain extremely loud volume levels)

    • Deep bass (you know, the 20Hz-and-under club)

    • Size (how important is a compact size vs. a larger size)

    • Finish quality (do we care about a furniture quality finish for a subwoofer?)

    I have left off retail pricing for a reason. The designs I am working on will all be close to each other with regard to costing. Also, please keep in mind when ranking that you can’t have your cake and eat it too… A higher prioritized characteristic can negatively affect another characteristic.

    That being said please rank your priorities and have fun. I have already made my guess as to what I expect the average ranking will indicate and I will share this with you after I have compiled enough data to make a firm and FINAL decision on our direction forward.
    .
    .
    .
    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    1 - • Sound Quality (characterized by low distortion, accurate transient response and linear frequency response) VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

    2 - • Deep bass (you know, the 20Hz-and-under club) Under 20hrz one cannot hear, but we do hear to 20hrz, and hearing the full range of sound is very important with many musical types. Home theatre shake is fun.

    Noen of the factors below would influence my decision, but, as per usual, I have nonetheless elaborated:

    • Output capabilities (able to maintain extremely loud volume levels)
    Not important (within reason - if it can blend well at volumes slightly louder than a symphony concert, I have all I need).

    • Size (how important is a compact size vs. a larger size)
    Not really a factor, smaller would be better, and cheaper to ship to Canada, but not much of a care either way. (again, within reason).

    • Finish quality (do we care about a furniture quality finish for a subwoofer?)
    No, I don't care. The only thing that would bug me is a cheezy attempt at a "classic furniture look", like av123, but I would still buy any Ascend sub if I could afford it. My pref: keep it simple/industrial/neutral - this best matches other Ascend products, and is most efficient. Subwoofers that try to look like traditionalist coffee tables are really tacky IMO, kind of like the wood panelling on station wagons you see in 1970s movies.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Ok guys, I feel it is quite obvious to many of you that I am working on something with regard to subwoofers. While I feel I know what Ascend customers want, before I *finalize* our direction I wanted to get some feedback from as many of you as possible.

    I have a few different designs at this point and I want to see which design, based on your feedback, comes closest to the priorities that you want. I won’t be sharing the actual designs at this point in time, the subwoofer market has become far too competitive to discuss this information, but your feedback here will decide our direction as we move forward and inch closer…

    Please see the below list of subwoofer characteristics. They are in no particular order. Please reply and rank them in the order of your personal priorities for a quality Ascend Acoustics subwoofer. Please list each of them in the order of their importance to you (top to bottom etc.).

    • Sound Quality (characterized by low distortion, accurate transient response and linear frequency response)

    • Output capabilities (able to maintain extremely loud volume levels)

    • Deep bass (you know, the 20Hz-and-under club)

    • Size (how important is a compact size vs. a larger size)

    • Finish quality (do we care about a furniture quality finish for a subwoofer?)

    I have left off retail pricing for a reason. The designs I am working on will all be close to each other with regard to costing. Also, please keep in mind when ranking that you can’t have your cake and eat it too… A higher prioritized characteristic can negatively affect another characteristic.

    That being said please rank your priorities and have fun. I have already made my guess as to what I expect the average ranking will indicate and I will share this with you after I have compiled enough data to make a firm and FINAL decision on our direction forward.

    I think the order you have them in will be the general consensus. Some people will have tight spaces and need size, some will want that piano black.

    I can't imagine anyone here putting sound quality anywhere but the top, as we all have that expectation from ascend.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    74

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    My priorities are in the order you have listed:

    Sound Quality: Music first - HT second priority. That overrides all other priorities for me.

    Output capabilities: It would be great to fill a large room mating with the Sierras.

    Deep bass: I don't need to rattle the foundation and glue down the knick-knacks.

    Size: Smaller is better but it's not worth compromising sound.

    Finish quality: A neutural finish that blends in is fine for me, as long as it does not cry out cheap and cheesey.

    I am thrilled to hear that this is moving forward. A sub that could match the performance and value level of the Sierra 1 would really be something, though I don't know if that's even possible in the world of sub woofer design.

    Thanks much Dave for soliciting our input.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    50

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    I may be the oddball here, but since you asked:

    • Sound Quality

    • Size

    • Output capabilities

    • Deep bass

    • Finish quality

    This is basically what I looked for when I just made a sub purchase, but maybe I should add that my purchase was for a smaller room.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Juliette, GA
    Posts
    403

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    • Sound Quality (characterized by low distortion, accurate transient response and linear frequency response) Since this is a distinguishing characteristic of Ascend products, it has to be #1. I'm willing to sacrifice output and deep bass for this.

    • Deep bass (you know, the 20Hz-and-under club) I put this second because I think it has an effect on the first. Although I'm a layman with no specific technical background, I find the LLT (large low tuned) train of thought makes sense. From what I understand, tuning the speaker very low pushes the harmonic distortion out of the normal frequency range for the subwoofer. Therefore, I'm not so much interested in subsonics to flap the hairs on my legs as I am in helping the overall quality of sound. The sub I have now measures out in it's temporary home as down only 3db @20 hz. I listened to some well recorded organ music last night and I have to admit the sub's ability to reach deep allowed me to hear things I've never heard before.

    • Output capabilities (able to maintain extremely loud volume levels) We're not action movie oriented and from my measurements at out loudest listening levels, peaks rarely exceed 90db. I believe THX ratings require 105db peaks. I doubt I'll ever set the rig that high.


    • Size (how important is a compact size vs. a larger size). I'm one of the fortunate who have a dedicated HT, therefore size is not a consideration.

    • Finish quality (do we care about a furniture quality finish for a subwoofer?) See Size. They all look black when you turn out the lights.

    It will be interesting to see what tier you target. I'm thinking if you're aiming at customers who go for 170/340's, your target price point would be $600-$800. If you're targeting the sub to sell with Sierra's, I can see more attention to finish and a price point of $1200-$1400.

    I'm also interested to see if you're considering a plate amp with PEQ. It would be nice to be able to tame bumps without resorting to an outboard solution, such as the Behringer Feedback Destroyer. The question is whether your target market will be inclined to run sweeps to identify the problems that need to be solved.

    I don't know if it would be helpful, but I think the regulars out here have already obtained a sub (sorry, I tried to wait!). Here's what I bought and why:

    SVS PB-12 NSD. I considered HSU, AV123 and even earlier considered Infinity, Velodyne and even PSB. I also considered DIY and got very close to buying a Rhythmik 15 Servo for a sealed cabinet. I chose the SVS based on reviews (especially Ikka's test in HT Shack) and it was at my price point, ~$600. Size (it's really big) and finish (similar to Ascend 340 black) were not factors.

    Whatever you decide, good luck!

    Doug

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    SouthWest of Cleveland
    Posts
    1,924

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    My order of preference:

    1. SQ, of course.

    2. Deep bass.

    3. Output capability.

    4. Size.

    5. Finish.

    If I may add my own category: Price. That will have a lot to do with many people's decision on which sub they ultimately purchase.

    Glad to see some progress, Dave!
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Posts
    711

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    My priorities for a sub to best match my sierras:

    1. Sound Quality - tight & musical but able to reach low enough
    2. Deep Bass - able to reach the lows of todays bass heavy soundtracks
    3. Output
    4. Finish - a piano black and standard black finish to match both the sierras & rest of the models.
    5. Size - If you must ask, it doesnt matter

    Brandon

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fair Oaks, Ca
    Posts
    211

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    Thanks for the bone to gnaw on Dave!

    1. Sound Quality- I would just be using your sub with the Sierra's for 2.1

    2. Deep Bass- as long as it blends with the Sierra's I'd be happy.

    3. Output capabilities- The older I get the less this is important, however I still do like listening quite loud on occasion.

    4. Finish Quality- I would love bamboo to match the Sierra's, having said that, that would probably put it out of reach (price) for me.

    5. Size- I would rather have bigger, but knowing what you have done with smaller speakers (Sierra's) either would be fine with me.

    Thanks,

    Jim

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    248

    Default Re: Let’s talk subwoofers...

    My order of preference:

    1. SQ.
    2. Deep bass.
    3. Output capability.
    4. Size.
    5. Finish (can we have an option like Sierra. This subconsciously plays part in many buyers decision.)

    To be honest, I always wanted JL Audio's f113(which has all 5 features),but could not justify the price to myself. I was hoping that you can come out with something like that or a step lower and leave the extras like EQ out. Plus the elimination of dealer markups would suddenly make it affordable.
    I agree that we can not have our cake and eat it too. I'm sure whatever you come out with will have many of us smiling
    Last edited by Sam1000; 06-11-2008 at 08:55 AM.

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