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Thread: An important discussion / evaluation on recent blind shootout.

  1. #51
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    Jim...first I want to welcome you to the forum.

    I also want to directly respond to this sentence from you:
    Quote Originally Posted by wesley63 View Post
    I also wanted to point out that Dave F continues to harp on the series attenuation issue, but in the test involving the 340SE, it was the other speaker that was attenuated.
    First, can we agree that series attenuation is not desired and can alter crossover behavior?

    Please refer to this line by David:

    I also do my due diligence and let me just say that my sensitivity measurements (taken with reference standard gear and using several different methods) do not correlate with what was reported from the listening session. I don't know the cause of this discrepancy but I certainly invite anyone to do the comparison in their own home. The difference in sensitivity is audible...
    It seems as though there is a discrepency as to what is being measured. Dave's is measurements do not seem to correspond with Craig's measurements. Dave is also saying exactly what you are saying....get both and try yourself.
    -curtis

  2. #52
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    Doesn't Ascend measure every speaker before it ships? How do those numbers compare with Craig's measurements? Could there be a measuring equipment or technique issue coming into play or shipping damage?
    Last edited by Quinn; 10-11-2007 at 01:13 AM.

  3. #53
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    GirgleMirt: I agree. There is an enormous amount of stealth marketing going on in any of these forums. And that is all most magazine articles are. I don't think that was the case here. The reviewers seemed to have no idea what speaker they were listening to. The mag in question seems to be a respectable group of guys. I liked their review of the Sierra 1 the month before.

    I wasn't suggesting to buy and keep anything. I was simply pointing out that for the price of return shipping on the competitions speakers, a 340SE owner could put his mind to rest that their speaker is better. Complaining about the test and just "knowing" that their speaker is better works too.

    Curtis: Thanks for the welcome. These are not really the circumstances under which I thought that I would be joining this forum.

    Yes, attenuation hurts. It was the competitor in the 340SE comparison that was hurting. The 340SE was flying unhindered. As Dave F mentioned before and Craig pointed out to me on AVS, the speaker fabric probably had an effect. It probably had the most effect.

    As for me doing the 340SE comparison: actually I'm saving up my money to do a comparison between the Sierra 1 and the Swan D2.1SE. To listen to them at the same time I must, at least temporarily, put $2000 on my credit cards. Now you can see why I didn't think that $250 on the card for a week was that big a deal.

    Jim

  4. #54
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    Quinn: Sensitivity (which speaker plays louder with the watts) won't be the same since the mic distance was probably different and also the watts sent to the speakers too. But for some reason, it seems like Craig's measurements were different than what was measured by David... Curtis, were the 340SE & Acculine measurements of David posted anywhere? Maybe if they were we could see the difference with Craig's?

    wesley63: I wasn't inferring that the mag/sponsors/participants were dishonest or anything like that, just that there seemed to be some discrepancies in the test which seemed to indicate that maybe there was a setup problem or some factor which influenced the results. 340SE = laid back like you're sitting in the 50th row? Not in my home... The other speaker compared was better in that fashion and I'm sure that it influenced the results.

    I don't particularly care about the results. But I can definitely see why Ascend or other companies whose products were involved in that comparison would be, especially if their product didn't seem to be performing as they should. (especially if such event was sponsored by a competitor!) If the participants heard the 340SE as they sound in my home, they would not have described it the way they did and so the results would probably have been different.

    Please let us know how the Sierra vs 2.1 turn out
    Last edited by GirgleMirt; 10-11-2007 at 07:33 AM.

  5. #55
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    [
    QUOTE=wesley63;25325]I assume that you are talking about Mark Schifter of AV123. He did not participate in the listening tests. In fact, in several forum posts when asked which speaker was the best out of the ones that he listened to before and after the blind comparisons, he has stated that it was the Sierra 1. I don't think that your insinuations hold any merit.
    I made no insinuation and the names of the individuals and their opinions were not relevant to my point. I take note when individuals with financial interest are involved in an activity that is ostensibly designed to remove bias. I can not make assumptions about the nature of the involvement but it introduces the potential for a different kind of bias. When the results from this activity are published in a magazine that assists consumers with making purchasing decisons, and these results include quantitative scoring, it gives me another reason to pause.

    Getting back to your question about how can it be that you experience the 340SE speaker differently: that's easy. The testers were comparing two speakers simultaneously. Notice that some of the testers found the treble on the winner to be overbearing. This would give them a very forward sound. The 340SE may "sound like the 50 row" when directly compared. Who knows. On that day, to those ears, it sounded that way.
    I am not sure that the sound character of the speaker providing the point of comparison should result in the other speaker sounding fundamentally different. I would have to try it myself to know. But that aside, the AA article has the effect of creating a buzz about the Acculine at the expense of the 340SE. For internet direct sellers, that on-line buzz equals dollars.

    My primary point is that lines between the audio enthusiast/consumer and business interests could have been blurred here. I have no way of knowing if they were. I suspect that in this case they were not. But as a consumer, especially as an internet consumer, I try to keep my eyes open. Sadly, in our times you can't blink without being exposed to some type of marketing, most of it we are scarcely aware of!
    Last edited by Galwin; 10-11-2007 at 07:51 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by wesley63 View Post
    It was the competitor in the 340SE comparison that was hurting.
    From looking at Dave's post, it looks as though he measured otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by GirgleMirt View Post
    Curtis, were the 340SE & Acculine measurements of David posted anywhere? Maybe if they were we could see the difference with Craig's?
    I don't think so, but he is inviting others to measure for themselves, and that the differences are audible.

    Like it has been said before, the only way to put this to rest in the minds of the people that care, is for them to check for themselves.
    -curtis

  7. #57
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    From the posts, I don't think that Dave ever actually measured the sensitivity of the Acculines. I think that he was quoting published specs on the websites. I may be wrong.

    When attempting to set the sound-levels for the comparison Craig seemed to be using software running off a PC and using a microphone in the room. You can argue over the quality of the measurement equipment, but both speakers in the comparison were measured in the same manor. The in-room sensitivity measurements led him to believe that the Acculines were .5 dB more sensitive, despite the published specs showing otherwise.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by wesley63 View Post
    From the posts, I don't think that Dave ever actually measured the sensitivity of the Acculines. I think that he was quoting published specs on the websites. I may be wrong.
    He says the difference is audible. I think that implies more than relying on published specs.

    I also do my due diligence and let me just say that my sensitivity measurements (taken with reference standard gear and using several different methods) do not correlate with what was reported from the listening session. I don't know the cause of this discrepancy but I certainly invite anyone to do the comparison in their own home. The difference in sensitivity is audible...
    Going back and forth on who to believe is no win situation until you try for yourself.
    -curtis

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    He says the difference is audible. I think that implies more than relying on published specs.
    It implies, yes. I was just pointing out that at no time did Dave come out and say that he had measured the Acculines personally. He does say that he has done his "due diligence." That may include actually purchasing or borrowing the competitors speakers and seeing what's up. I just don't know.

    Jim

  10. #60
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    It will just create more conflict with people siding with Craig and people siding with Dave, just as you posted about Dave harping on the attenuation issue.

    The best is for people to try for themselves.

    Hey, at least we agree that inline resistance is an issue...regardless of the speaker.

    So if I get a pair of A1's and say they are less efficient than 340SE's.....who would you believe? It just doesn't get you anywhere.
    -curtis

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