yes, but you know it is from me!
how is this instead? better?
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yes, but you know it is from me!
how is this instead? better?
I love this man - in a non plutonic cool sort of way! Thanks Dave... your help and professionalism is appreciated by more than I, I am sure. I will try to remember and recall this to help others.
Regards and best wishes. I eagerly await the speakers and hope to put your advice and expertise to work in setting up my system
Thanks for the informative past Dave!! I greatly appreciate it as well.
L/R - Sierra Towers
Center - Sierra Horizon Tower
Surrounds - 200SE
SW - Dual PSA XV15's
TV - Panasonic TC-P65VT60
A/V Receiver - Denon AVR-4311CI
Blu-ray/DVD - Sony BDP-S5100
DVR STB - Motorola Arris X1
BTW, Dave, that was very well written and enlightning which is why I strongly dislike a lot of the salesmen out there right now. So here is the question, I heard a Denon 1907 (85W/ch) and 2807 (110W/ch) in the same room at the same -15dB level with all other things being equal (same speakers, same treb/bass, 2ch stereo, etc.). The 2807 sounded a lot louder than the 1907. Was this b/c of the better circuitry do you think, or was it that the extra power in the 2807 allowed the 2807 to sound louder at the same -15 on the dial? This is one of the larger reasons that brought me to the line of questioning above. I thought with the +25W more of power in the 2807 was the main reason and would better help the speakers to perform with less effort!?
Last edited by audibleconnoisseur; 01-23-2007 at 05:48 PM.
Well, with Dave'a explanation, I don't think I will look any further, I've wondered if it might sound better if I had more power. I don't know why we're never satisfied with great sound.
leon, after a long talk with dave and james at ascend, as well as in reading and thinking logically and technically/engineering like that i have come to the conclusion that power is great for hauling boats and trailers and good current and quality circuitry coupled with excellent speakers able to reproduce the audible spectrum is best for music. whether it is hk, denon, pani, yami, onkyo, pio, etc., it is all about what we like and what needs and desires we have for our receivers that is important to us. don't get me wrong, get good quality materials to produce great quality sound!
i will let you all know my thoughts when i get the speakers broken in later this weekend or next week.
I should probably elaborate on this more before I give people the wrong impression.
My discussion about power should be limited to the same line of receivers or even the same price point receivers.
For example, if someone were to ask me "I have a 200 watt/channel HK receiver but I am thinking of going separates and I have my eyes on a Bryston amp but it is only 100 watts, what should I do?"
In a heartbeat, go with the Bryston. Besides having better sound quality, the amp itself is capable of delivering far more current. If you ask me, receivers and amps should be rated in current capability.
Here is an example.
Amp X has the ability to deliver 20 amps
Amp Y has the ability to deliver 5 amps
Both amps have the same gain settings (how much voltage they will deliver at a specific volume setting)
Let us assume at max volume level, they both deliver a clean 28 volts to the speaker. The nominal impedance of the speakers is 8 ohm.
Power (watts) = voltage squared / impedance. In this scenario, both amps are delivering 98 watts to the speaker. And, as an example, are equally loud.
Current = watts / volts so both amps are delivering 3.5 amps, well within the capability of both amps and both amps could be rated at 100 watts into 8 ohms.
However, speaker impedance varies dramatically and it is common for an 8 ohm speaker to have significant impedance dips into the 4 ohm range.
What happens at 4 ohms?
The power demand at 4 ohms now becomes 28v squared / 4 ohms = 196 watts.
The current requirement to deliver 196 watts into 4 ohms = 7 amps (square root of (watts/impedance))
Amp Y can't do it -- not even close, so at high volume levels, the frequency range of the loudspeaker that has lower impedance will be compromised (either compressed or clipped).
For Amp X, it is no problem at all, well within the amp's capability.
Let’s look at an example:
The Denon 1907 is rated at 85 watts / channel. Denon does not indicate whether this is peak or continuous wattage, or into what resistive load it will deliver this power. I am a firm believer that any manufacturer will make their wattage rating look as good as possible. So, let's assume that it is 85 watts peak power into 8 ohms. 85 watts peak power into 8 ohms = peak current capability of 3.26 amperes (and I doubt this rating is with all channels driven)
Harman Kardon rates their AVR-245 receiver at 50 watts per channel, all channels driven into 8 ohms. However, they also rate the maximum current capability at 35 amps. 35 amps divided by 7 channels = 5 amps per channel.
Care to guess which receiver really has more "power"? For typical class A/B amplifiers like these, current capability is mostly determined by the power supply -- and the larger the transformer, the more capability. The bulk of the weight in class A/B amps or receivers are in the transformer... Care to guess which receiver weighs more? The "85 watt rated Denon" or the "50 watt rated HK"?
Just a disclaimer here, I have absolutely nothing against Denon products -- in fact, just the opposite. This is just one example to show how meaningless "wattage" ratings have become in the industry.
If you really want loads of power, purchase a separate power amp or use Ohm's law and some basic math to determine current capability. It can be tricky as most manufacturers don't want you to know this.
Here is something to test your new knowledge. The Bryston 2B http://www.bryston.ca/2bsst_m.html is rated at 100 watts into 8 ohms and also rated at 180 watts into 4 ohms of one channel. What is its max current capability for one output channel?
As a favor, please don't link to this thread in any of the more public audio forums. I don't want or need any bad blood and this could get nasty.
Thanks in advance!
Ah! A penguin just fell off my iceberg!
(I ran out of room to learn new things...)
Last edited by Jonnyozero3; 01-23-2007 at 08:20 PM.
Jon O.
I have... current envy! Dave, this is why we are your customers. Not one time has any of the five companies I spoke with layed it out like this in writing for us and you are doing this knowing you are not going to make money on the receivers (unless we get the HK of course)!
I will do some math on a few receivers that I have been looking at and go from there. Of course I will still go with my ears as they are really what I am trying to please here. It is good to get this kind of knowlege of what to expect and what we 'should' be looking for when we are doing research or buying a system. I wish everyone did this and there would be much less returns and much more happy purchases. I will make sure I focus on the sound and on the current instead of the watts/ch.
FYI, Denon said their 80W/ch is a "true" rating/ch and not inflated but then... they WERE Denon! Still their receivers sound really good and are quality units that I have found.
Have a great night Dave and thanks for your continued time and input
got all the speakers setup, they sound great! im havign trouble finding a good spot for the sub. It sounds kinda funny in the two ideal spots i have it. UPS didnt come with the omni mounts and then said they tried to deliver them later in the day. I didnt hear them, but it may have been the master and commander lol Now theyre gonna come back tommorow and i have work. So far everythign sounds good, but i def have playing around to do. Thanks to everyone for the help in choosing ascend.