Yearg! B-Stocks or a Nintendo Wii?

[curtis]

my theory is that you younger guys with better hearing in the upper treble areas are hearing the extended frequency response of the SE's.

Maybe the room you guys were in? I know you do not believe that electronics make a significant difference.

[davef]

Hi Steve,

As you know, it is nearly impossible to compare speaker A to speaker B in one room, then compare speaker C to speaker D in another room and try to make any reasonable comparison between speaker A and speaker D based on aural memory.

That being said, one of things that bothered me (for years) on the classic 340 was a +2dB bump in the 100Hz range. To some listeners, this could sound a bit warmer, to others it tended to sound boomy. It also made integration with a subwoofer a bit more problematic. The classic 340 also had a shallow 2dB rise starting from about 10kHz on up.

I try to design product that will reproduce the source material as faithfully as my skills and resources allow. With the 340 SE, we tuned the cabinet lower which resulted in a lower "Q" (critically damped), eliminating the bump at 100Hz which was due to slight overdamping, while at the same time improving the extension and transient response. Additionally, the rise in the HF response was eliminated with the net result being a noticeably flatter and more linear response throughout the entire response.

Accurate and neutral can often sound "thinner" when compared to a less accurate overdamped design which to some listeners can be more appealing because of the unnatural “warmth”.

I can assure you though, the differences are very subtle at best and to be sure about it, you would really need to compare the speakers side by side, in the same room. I have done so extensively as have many of our customers.

The overall net result for the SE changes on the 340 have resulted in twice the amount of total sales in 1/3 the time period with a noticeably lower return rate. The biggest complaint of the classic being a slight boominess and tweeter distortion at high volumes, both of which have been eliminated with the SE.

One of these days I'll take some sound-power measurements of the two and you can get a good visual representation of what I detailed above. Sound-power is a very revealing measurement that looks at the FR of the speaker taken at different vertical and horizontal angles which are then averaged together using a specific weighted averaging formula (at least 48 measurements in total, I use 15 or 10 degree increments depending on my mood – sometimes even 5 deg increments but this can take many hours). The net result being the total energy output of the loudspeaker in the room.

Since the cabinet dimensions between both speakers are the same and my test chamber doesn't change, the comparison between the two is fully validated.

Anyway.... Have a wonderful weekend and keep on listening!!

[davef]

my theory is that you younger guys with better hearing in the upper treble areas are hearing the extended frequency response of the SE's.

Hey -- please define younger guys. Is 40 a younger guy? I would just like to know what is considered young these days. With our 3 month old, my almost 5 year old now seems "old" to me...

[Jonnyozero3]

I'd be curious to know everyone's ages on here, just for the heck of it. I'm a ripe 25.88

[SteveCallas]

Dave, let me just start off by saying that I hope I'm not coming off as being critical or anything like that. That's not my intention at all, I'm just sharing the recent experiences I had which I feel have been very telling - not just in regards to your speakers, but speakers in general. I have great respect for your product and you, so if at any point I seem out of line, just let me know and I'll disappear. With that said...

As you know, it is nearly impossible to compare speaker A to speaker B in one room, then compare speaker C to speaker D in another room and try to make any reasonable comparison between speaker A and speaker D based on aural memory.

I agree. I originally had no intentions of wanting to compare classics to sigs, but since the Modulas sounded better than the sigs (to me) and were more laid back, and the VR3s sounded better than the classics (to me) and were more lively, something just wasn't adding up. Upon hearing the sigs at Ryan's, adding more liveliness to the top end wouldn't have been a good thing, as they were already sounding a little thin.

I can assure you though, the differences are very subtle at best and to be sure about it, you would really need to compare the speakers side by side, in the same room. I have done so extensively as have many of our customers.

And I hope to do just this, blind and level matched using a few listeners.


As far as a slightly rising response, here is something I was pondering last night and tested this morning. When off axis from a tweeter, the top end rolls off a little bit - the further off axis, the steeper the rolloff. Very generically, most tweeters will be a few dbs down from 10-20khz when measured from 15 degress off axis. If one wants to preserve the natural FR of the top end, they will want to use enough toe in so that the face of each speaker is pointed at their ears. In doing this however, width of soundstage is typically diminished. If a speaker were to have a natural FR with a rising top end, little to no toe in could be used, making the FR at the seat relatively flat, and providing a much wider soundstage.

I tried this out this morning - I've always had my VR3s with little to no toe in since the first week I set them up. Today I used lots of toe in, enough so that I could only see the face of the speakers from my seat, no part of the inside of the cabinet. The music seemed to have lost a lot of life, it became thin and souned less realistic. I listened to about eight tracks like this. Imaging between the speeakers was still good, and the clarity was still there, but soundstage definitely took a big hit. Then I put them back the way they were, with very little toe in, almost firing straight ahead (my speakers are ~6.5' apart and I sit ~9' back from them). The imaging and clarity were maintained, but the presentation was a lot better. The soundstage was wider and the music was more involving, fuller, and more realistic. Believe me, I don't like using such adjectives, but I know of no other way to describe the effect. A large soundstage just makes music seem more true to life. This would seem to work well with the VR3s because they have a boost in the high end, and this would seem to explain why I have always found them to have a huge soundstage.

So what I'm thinking - and will put into practice if I ever delve into diy speakers - is to purposefully aim for a boosted top end, allowing me to use little to no toe in while maintaining flat response and achieveing a very wide soundstage. Jon will also be testing this out, as he can adjust a resistor value to increase the top end of his Modula MTs. All the listening we did so far was with a pretty fair amount of toe in - he's gonna boost the top end and use no toe in.

What do you think of that concept Dave? Not from the viewpoint of putting it into a commercial speaker you are selling and have no control over how the end user (your customers) will position them in room, but as an intentional design aspect to be used with little to no toe in.

[Quinn]

This all is quite the thread highjack.

[Jonnyozero3]

One of the most impressive out-of-left field ones I've seen.

[curtis]

Hey -- please define younger guys. Is 40 a younger guy?

No.

[SteveCallas]

This all is quite the thread highjack.

One of the most impressive out-of-left field ones I've seen.

Lol, sorry My original point was on topic though - I wouldn't assume everyone will prefer the sound of the signatures over the classics. That would lead to me saying get the Wii, which he already has. Only problem with that is that Twilight Princess was much too easy, a bit of a disappointment

[curtis]

Played with the Nintendo Wii today....and I go to say that I am pretty impressed with what it does, as well as its capabilities for the future. "We" had a lot of fun with it!