Modded Ascends?

[rajacat]

It's funny but I was a skeptic too when it came to cables and have used various garden variety cables in the past without experiencing any difference in SQ. In this case, I changed my tune because I experienced a VERY noticeable improvement in SQ especially with the addition of the shielded and very stiff interconnects which replaced the middle of the line Monster interconnects

I have come to the opinion that relatively minor tweaks such as new cables will not be noticeable unless the whole system is capable of very fine resolution. It is a Gestalt that we are dealing with in that it is how all the parts interact with each other that determines the outcome. A typical ghetto blaster will not benefit from high end speaker cables.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

David F. should have installed the very cheapest wiring and other electronic parts in his speakers to save money because the parts don't matter anyway

I've said the exact opposite:
Like I said, I really don't think its worth the bother to try to mod the crossover [...] wouldn't be cost/performance effective, and wouldn't yield any real performance improvement... If they would, I'm pretty sure they would have already been included in the speakers...

Why go for the gold plated binding posts when you could do just as well with the least expensive spring loaded plain steel wire clips?

Well.. 1) Gold plating. You have to look at the purpose of gold plated binding posts. Whats the #1 reason to gold plate? Its that gold doesn't get corroded and corrosion can be detrimental to having a good contacts. 2) spring loaded? Again, its performance vs cost. David chose to go with quality parts instead of cheaping out... But then again, he didn't go for the esoteric stuff, where ONE connector (WBT, Cardas, etc.) can cost like 75$ or more.... Hell, the price for the 8 connectors would be as much as the total cost of the 340s!!!!

Why didn't he do it and use those connectors? Because they're not worth it. I'm 100% sure no self proclaimed golden ears could tell the difference in a blind test... The regular connectors do the job perfectly. So is it worth it to jack up the price of the 340s to 1500$ because of the connectors? Wbt/Cardas can probably explain why they make a difference... And sure maybe in A/B a 'golden ear' guy would be able to tell you what he (thinks he) hears, but the problem is that it pretty much always falls apart in a blind test...

I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing. You tell me that the "placebo effect" is responsible any improvement I perceived when I replaced my interconnects and speaker cable with high end cables that I bought for bargain. How in the **** do you know? You are making assumption with incomplete facts. My former cables consisted of moderately priced cable that can be purchased at Radio Shack but definitely good enough for middle fidelity. BTW what is the makeup of your rig? ****?

Sorry if I came out sounding offensive... But you didn't answer my question. Did you ever do a blind test to confirm your results? I did. I actually participated in one for interconnects, where the results turned out negative. Existing data conclude the same thing (see here for example). I'm not saying there's no difference between your RCA cables, maybe there is, some cables are actually made to alter the signal (but these are usually VERY expensive, and doesn't really fit the description of 'cable' since they alter the signal) but the only way to make sure is to make some sort of listening test where the placebo effect can be eliminated.

Because in the end, all that matters is the difference it makes on the sound... It might do a measurable difference, but if you can't distinguish it in a blind test, its certainly not worth it to invest your money on it.. (well to me at least...)

I started this thread with an innocent inquiry that on many other speaker forums would seem entirely appropriate. I'm surprised that you are an Ascend "fanboy" when you don't even own a pair.

Now now... no need for name calling The only thing I did was give my honest opinion.

The same would have been done with basically any serious loudspeaker. Totem, Dynaudio, BW, NHT, Vandersteen, and the hundreds of others... When you buy speakers of a certain quality, you already bought above minimum quality parts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I see speakers of this level a little bit like a Porche. You're already bought something of above quality. Where someone might buy a Civic and try to mod it to get it to something like a sports car is one thing, but once you get something which has been designed by pros for performance, having Joe Bloe try to enhance its performance is bound to yield limited results.

Sure you can take a Porches and replace its hood by a carbon fiber hood... But whats the point. It'll cost you 5000$ and won't make any significant difference in handling, top speed or acceleration... So might as well put some $ down for advanced driving courses or something... (placement, room treatment, etc)

I imagine you will be always stuck in middle fidelity because of your closed mind and/or substandard hearing

"substandard hearing" Thats funny! I do believe there's a hint of truth in your comments though. I try to remain as objective as I can in anything... Last time I went to an audioshop to see possible upgrades, I demo'd some stuff... A fancy cd player (5000$), fancy DAC (5000$), fancy amp (5000$), fancy speaker and RCA cables (500$+?), etc.. I wasn't even sure if it was placebo or I was really hearing differences as the guy was chaging components... I also went to a few audio shows listen to systems costing more than a car...

Then when I get home and listen to my mid fi gear, I don't feel the urge to withdraw 10000$ from my bank account to blow on audio gear... Maybe you're right, maybe I don't have as good ears as others because midfi so far is plenty good for me, so I don't think about blowing so much money on the insanely priced audio stuff...

I just put money where I think its worth it... (cdn$)

350$(used) NAD 541 cdp (bit of a waste of money IMHO)
400$ Behringer DEQ2496 Digital EQ (great! especially for digital out of lappy for HT/music)
450$(used) QSC 1450 amp 280 watts amp (<-- very good!)
1400$ for Totem Sttaf speakers
15$ for your basic optical cables
20$ for your standard XLR cables
30$ for your standard 12 gauge speaker cable.. (replaced my 20$ 12 gauge Reno Depot solid core wire only because solid core is a PITA to use because it doesn' bend easily)

If I ever DID want to put serious $ for some part of my audio chain, I'd like to do a BT before.. To make sure I buy something which actually MAKES a difference and not something I think makes a difference.

While some may take pride in the fact that they got 300$ RCA cables, I take pride in using... well... non BS stuff... Like... You won't be catching me with crystals on my electronics, or painting my cd's, or 300$ worth of Cardas speaker cables, etc..

[rajacat]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear and I was being a little sarcastic when I was referring to the spring loaded speaker terminals. It is hard for me to conduct a BT but I did do A/B over and over and the difference was clear. Even a scientific BT would have to be very well constructed to come to real world conclusions given the variability of systems, environments and the Gestalt referred to above. Also I believe you have to live with a system or tweaks for awhile to appreciate fine differences. Why else would most online speaker manufactures offer 30 day trials. Why not just a 5 day trial?

My system: Computer>stock SqueezeBox3 w/Bolder modded Power One Power Supply>Mhdt DAC>Mapletree line 3A tubed pre>Gainclone 100/ch @4ohms chip amp>Ascend 340SE's ---Omega Super 3 bipole single driver speakers ...used(will arrive next Tuesday)---Onix UFW-10 subwoofer.

Raja

[rajacat]

In my original question I never suggested that Ascends should be be modded but only inquiring if someone had opened them up and performed some tweaks.

On the VMPS forum (Audio Circle) they are constantly trying or suggesting tweaks to the RM30's and 40's and those are $3000+ speakers.

Raja

[GirgleMirt]

It is hard for me to conduct a BT but I did do A/B over and over and the difference was clear. Even a scientific BT would have to be very well constructed to come to real world conclusions given the variability of systems

Here's an easy way. Have someone else switch (or not switch) the interconnect say every 3 days (or 1 week or whatever), without you knowing Then write on a piece of paper which one you think you were listening to for that period. After say one or two months, compare both sheats and check out how many % of the time you were correct.

lol Thats an evil test because I don't think anyone could succeed at it

A/B and BT/DBTs are really different beasts. A/B encourages the placebo effect, BT/DBT eliminates it... Multiple A/B tests sadly doesn't eliminate the placebo effect...

Thats pretty much the reason I don't worry with upgrades. Speaker differences are obvious. Cd players, amps, much more subtle... So when demoing, it can be hard to tell real differences vs placebo... Cables... even worst... So if you have trouble differentiating them... Then its probably not worth it to invest money for it...

Some people claim to hear drastic differences... Well.. Maybe they got better ears than me... Some were even mouthing before the test, when we were A/Bing knowing which one was which, telling us to be careful to hear for this or that, telling us they hear this with IC A, and that with IC B... But they all failed pathetically for our interconnect test, which leads me that their hearing isn't really superior to mine, plus anecdotical evidence makes me believe the opposite but anyhow... Maybe they're just unaware of the placebo effect and the limitation of the human ear, acoustic memory, etc.. Suffice to say it was an eye opener for many of the participants... Though I wasn't very suprised by the results...

The most ridiculous thing IMHO, is that acoustic treatment, speaker placement and listener position, all make SIGNIFICANT differences. Much more evident change than any cdplayer or cable change... And these 3 are probably the most critical and most overlooked part of most systems...

Question: Why do you say: "Gainclone 100/ch @4ohms"? the 340s are 8 ohms, so why list the 4 ohms value instead of 8 ohms? My QSC is like 450 watts at 4ohms, and 800 at 2 ohms (I win! )


Let us know how the Omegas turn out and compare to the 340s! For years I've been considering building a pair of Fostex fullrange speakers. The smaller drivers are suprisingly cheap (FE127E is about 125$ for a pair!), easy to build since you don't have to worry at all about the crossover and matching drivers, so all thats left is the box, and if you opt for an MLTL design, well, its a very simple build! The 207 is interesing also, especially for their sensitivity, but the FR is more erratic and they cost a bit more...

[rajacat]

The Gainclone I purchased from a DIY'er on Audiogon and that was the spec. he gave me. I don't know what it puts out at 8 ohms but it is substantially more powerful than the Panny XR55 that I owned previously and has lots more phat. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on AB testing. I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears. Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect. I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changes

Raja

[Lou-the-dog]

Didn't Davef describe a mod where a small piece of felt was applied near the tweeter on the 170's (Classics)? Can't remember exactly why...maybe for dispersion reasons dependant on placement?? Feel free to correct me.

Randy

[bikeman]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on AB testing. I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears.

We can't get A/B testing published in a peer reviewed journal. At least not to show results. It can be used for other purposes. Properly conducted BT/DBT is published all the time. I've recommended this before so I guess I'll do it again. Go to any school that offers perceptual psychology and take a 300 (or above) level course. It'll change the way ya think about a lotta things. All our senses can be dramatically effected by filters (information). To get useful results, we have ta minimize those filters. We can't do that with A/B.

Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect. I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changesRaja

We all believe our senses. Life would be absolutely miserable if we felt otherwise. It's just good to recognize that we all filter information differently. It has little to do with how good our hearing or eyesight are.
I've been in girglemirt's corner for awhile now but I felt as you do for years as well. My hearing hasn't changed dramatically but my filters have.

David

[GirgleMirt]

Well actually I don't wanna start the whole RCA cable/speaker wire debate

Then why did you? Half of your post was giving Raja a hard time about liking the cables he bought.

Yeah sorry I guess its that replacing crossover parts would kinda fall into that category... That is, replacing the wires with exotic wires, exotic resistors, etc.. Then when its done, what's left? Claiming extraordinary improvements just like changing a 5$ IC with a 300$ one? Anyhow, I guess I'm as much curious as anyone else concerning replacing parts, but am already doubtful about hearing about the results...

[1]I believe that for that test to be meaningful it would need to be performed with a VERY good system and with people that are knowledgeable and have good ears. [2]Frankly I believe my ears when the perceived change is substantial and it is not due to the placebo effect.[3] I'll grant you that the placebo effect might be considered when we are talking about relatively subtle changes

[1] Well... Do you think you have all those things? What do you think about my proposed test? [2] lol The perfect candidate for the placebo effect Its pretty much the same thing when a doctor gives a patient a sugar pill, the patient takes it and gets better because of the pill. That's exactly what placebo is all about! When you're A/Bing two RCA cables, even if they're the same, you're actively trying to find differences, even if you're purposely trying not to get 'fooled' by hearing differences where there are none, you'll still be doing it subconciously... add the imperfect nature of the human ear, the short acoustic memory, the nature of the test and its not suprising to hear differences where there were none... If only all it took to eliminate the placebo effect was a knowledge of what a placebo is...

You can see evidence of that with a BT.. People thinking they heard something (could identify cable X), but they were simply wrong... Its pretty evident when someone say its cable A, then the cable doesn't get switched, and that same person listening to the same cable says its now cable B. They thought they heard something different. And maybe they actually did! Its the imperfect nature of man. So relying on that instead of hard data is what makes the snake oil industry thrive today.. [3] Thanks Or are you saying that cable/RCA cable changes aren't subtle?

[rajacat]

So you are saying that quality interconnects make no difference in SQ. It would be very interesting to take some very high end speakers such as the $25000+ Wilson's and rip out the megabucks interconnects and substitute the very cheapest Radio Shack cables and listen for differences. I would be willing to bet my paycheck that there would a marked audible difference in SQ. Since you have been suggesting that I use my precious time constructing involved a/b and blind tests perhaps you should go to a dealer and conduct this relatively simple test yourself.

Another suggestion would be to check out one of the truly audiophile forums such as Audio Circle and inquire about this issue. There are people there who are constantly rotating their equipment and I'm sure are better equipped to address this issue than the members of this forum.

Bikeman, I'm sure that there are filters which account for the inability to perceive differences because of erroneous preconceptions also. How does that saying go? I think "a man believes what he wants to believe and disregards the rest." Perhaps we all want to believe that our economy systems are just as good as the high end rigs because the buyers of the high price spread are just duped by clever marketing.