what's your CD player?

[Kurt C.]

I am considering the NAD c542, Onix X88cd, and Pioneer 578 (decreasing order of pricing), running 340s off of some vintage NAD separates.

Eddie et al,

I want to make sure that we are actually addressing your questions and not getting lost here. I assume that your vintage NAD preamp does NOT have digital or multichannel in capability?

That means that you will be using two channel (L/R) analog output from the CD player at home (and for all your comparions) and have no use for multichannel outputs like DTS, dolby digital, DVD-A or SACD?

[Mag_Neato]

I have an older Yamaha CDC-715 5-disc changer from 1992. I don't use it very often as the drawer has recently started to stick, and requires a tug to get it to open and a push to fully close. Plus there is no digital output, so it is strictly analog.

I usually use my Pioneer 563A DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-A/MP-3 player running through it's digital out(coax) into my Outlaw 1050. I have the CD input on the 1050 set to the same digital input as the DVD input, but set to 2-channel instead of surround so I don't need to change any settings.

[Kurt C.]

Kurt and Bikeman,

you guys might want to look into this (humongous) thread on another forum, particularly the counterarguments against Peter Aczel by one Jan Vigne:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/135998.html

It's a lot of reading but IMO might be worth your while.

OK. I read it. After reading the first post, it became clear to me that Jan Vigne is a well spoken person who can put together a rather eloquent defense of his beliefs. I went ahead and carefully read the rest of the thread to make sure that I had not misjudged him.

Jan does write nice, flowery sounding arguments, but they're wrong.

Jan's opinions are not based on facts. He ignores REAL facts, as stated by honest, qualified electrical engineers who design audio equipment. Instead, Jan prefers to use his excellent writing skills to support myths. These myths originate from two groups of people--idiots who, like Jan, base their beliefs on hearsay and mysticism; and liars who know the truth but stand to make a lot of money if they can convince you that the myths are true.

[Quinn]

Kurt you sound like me about two years ago before I went to an audio gathering and heard the differences when I had no vested interest in hearing it.

Have you ever done the blind listening yourself?

[Eddie]

Kurt,

thanks for asking; no my NAD separates are strictly 2-channel and unfortunately no bass management either.

I have a separate cheapo Panasonic DVD player I use for movies that has a digital coax to the Marantz receiver.

DVD-A and SACD-A I like the idea of but have no interest in forking out $20-30 a pop for, plus I usually only hook up the surrounds only when I watch movies like LOTR which is once in a blue moon (room layout and WAF issues).

I'm looking at the Pioneer 563/578 only because I've read from some people that it has particularly good CD playback in its price range.

As for Jan Vigne, I'm impressed that you made it through that entire huge thread at one go. I'm getting the impression that the audio world seems divided straight down the middle, one camp being more or less "mystics" and the other being "empiricists."

Hoping to do the CDP abx-ing today, will get back with my findings...

[bikeman]

As for Jan Vigne, I'm impressed that you made it through that entire huge thread at one go. I'm getting the impression that the audio world seems divided straight down the middle, one camp being more or less "mystics" and the other being "empiricists."

This is why the new research in fields that don't even know that audiophiles exist is so interesting. It has the potential to give the two camps some common ground. If any of you are familiar with Douglas Adam's "Babble Fish," common ground dosen't always lead to a better understanding. That's why I use "potential."
And Kurt, don't sugar coat your thoughts so much. Let us know how you really feel.

David
A fellow sugar coater

[Kurt C.]

I used to think that I could hear differences between decent quality CD/DVD players and really expensive ones, but I don't think so anymore.

When you do an A/B comparison, take along a sound level meter and make sure that the volume levels are EXACTLY matched on the two players.

I went into such a test being sure that I'd have no trouble picking out the more expensive player. When poker faced friend did the switching between the two players (rather than a 'helpful' salesman), I was somewhat embarrassed to discover that there was no noticible difference.

Quinn,

I have done such a test (with myself as a listener) on several occasions. The first time, I thought I could hear differences, but there was a critical flaw in the test, we didn't take the time to make sure that the volume levels were EXACTLY matched to ±0.1 dB. The human brain does funny things with extremely small differences in volume level. When one of two otherwise identical sounds is slightly louder than the other, we are more likely to think it sounds "better" rather than louder.

Did you test you participated in meet the following standards: 1) EXACT level matching to ±0.1 dB, 2)no hints as to which player you were listening to, 3) at least 14 guesses as to the better sounding of an unidentified player?

If any of the above standards were violated or you couldn't guess correctly greater than 66% of the time, the test wasn't valid and you were bound to think you heard differences.

I know that it is annoyingly difficult to do these kinds of tests correctly, but since we are talking about lots of money and even more potential satisfaction. People who, like you and me really care about the truth, owe it to ourselves to make sure that the comparison is done without bias.

[Quinn]

Nope. I just going to continue to enjoy my system as is with the "improvements I hear" without over thinking it all.

[BradJudy]

For what it's worth, I didn't hear a noticable difference between the XCD-88 and my Pioneer 563. I did, however, notice a difference between either and my AA DDE 3.0 DAC. Minor, but noticable. No, it wasn't a double-blind test (although I tried to adjust for levels) as I don't have a setup suitable for a double-blind (primarily a way to trim individual input levels to match).

If a non super scientific comparison is sufficient for an individual to make a decision on that amount of money, why nag them about it? I would spend more on a car than on audio, but still don't feel the need to be blindfolded while riding in different ones to make the desicion, nor do I buy one totally based on the specs (although they certainly play a major role, especially reliablility and safety records). Everyone has a balance that they choose to use between emperical and non-emperical factors when making a decision. As long as they are comfortable with the balance they chose to use, what's wrong with that?

[bikeman]

what's wrong with that?

Give me a minute...I'm thinking. OK. I know "what's wrong with that." Sometimes it dosen't agree with my predjudices. Any other questions?

David