what's your CD player?

[bikeman]

However I wouldn't be as quick to accept Master's finding that a $200 receiver sounds the same as say a $1000 one...not on any scientific grounds that I know of (technically I'm very unschooled as you've probably noticed by now, lol) just on my own experience: going from a Sony minisystem to an Onkyo 601 was a HUGE leap, from the Onkyo 601 to a Marantz 5400 was a significant improvement, and from the Marantz to some NAD separates was another big leap. The last transition I can experienced recently while comparing the 170s against another Internet speaker, both of which sounded way better on the NAD than the Marantz.

I don't question for a moment that you hear a difference. If the difference is in the hardware, there's something wrong with the hardware. That's always a possiblility expecially as these less expensive units get older.
Take two relatively new units and do a proper ABX test. If you can still tell a difference, you'll make news. If one receiver IS better then it's easily demonstated. Hearing a difference when we can identify the units is not a demonstration.
The literature is pretty good on this point. Once we have a piece of information, we can't disregard it. CAT scans are becoming a vital tool in this area. You have to eliminate the information to have a valid test. You don't need a CAT scan to get good data. A well done blind or double blind test works just as well in this area.
Again, there's no argument here that there is a difference. It's where the difference is traceable to. Fun stuff.

David

[bikeman]

Bikeman,
So if I read you correctly, you're saying that what sound differences there are between cheap and more expensive CDPs are due to factors *other* than DACs? More expensive CDPs often claim to have better transports, chassis, etc. which they claim to improve the sound quality so their sales pitch is not based solely on having allegedly bette DACs...
Would you say then that claimed differences in sound between CDPs are as dubious as claimed differences in sound produced by higher end cables and interconnects? I've long pooh-poohed the cable/interconnect claims myself.

You can improve the integrity of a CD player. That will make it last longer. If someone can make it sound better, they have publishable material. The marketing dept does not constitute publishing.
We know how to do proper testing. There's a few reasons that it dosen't happen. Expense and outcome being the two most common. But those two can be related. Why go through the expense if the outcome is in serious doubt?

David

[Eddie]

Kurt and Bikeman,

you guys might want to look into this (humongous) thread on another forum, particularly the counterarguments against Peter Aczel by one Jan Vigne:

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/135998.html

It's a lot of reading but IMO might be worth your while.

[Eddie]

BTW here's an interesting take on blind testing:

http://stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi/

[bikeman]

you guys might want to look into this (humongous) thread on another forum, particularly the counterarguments against Peter Aczel by one Jan Vigne:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/135998.html

Thanks, Eddie. I followed that thread earlier this year. If there's anything in there that directly addresses my hypothesis, I missed it. Feel free to point it out. Peter and Jan are not central to my position and I haven't mention either in this discussion.

David

[bikeman]

BTW here's an interesting take on blind testing:
http://stereophile.com/asweseeit/705awsi/

If you'd like to find out about the scientific method for blind/double blind testing, you'll need to search the scientific literature. Stereophile is a long, long way from science.

David

[pegleg]

I have the Pio 578A. For the money, it's a great player. Add in the fact that it also plays DVD's, SACD's, and DVD-A's, and it's even better. You mentioned wanting to save on a CD player to get a better sub, and I think that's the right idea.

Eddie,
Do you know if that player works in a stereo system? One review I saw said it needs a 5.1 system.
Since I am tech-NO-literate on some things, perhaps all DVD players work in stereo systems?
Thanks,

Pegleg

[T2T]

OK, I've been reading this forum off-and-on. However, seeing this thread led me to register so I could respond accordingly.

A little background: I've owned the Pioneer 578 and currently own the Onix XCD-88 player.

I had the Pioneer for about 2 months before selling it off. The redbook audio playback, using the on-board DACs left me quite unimpressed. In fact, I also have a $29 Magnavox that actually sounded better when it came to redbook audio. Finally, after some deliberation, I moved onto the Onix XCD-88. Hands down, it sounds the best - well, at least to me it does. It is well worth the price of $299 plus a small shipping fee. The Onix player is built like a tank, while the Pioneer player seems like a lightweight toy.

I also noticed H/K was on your list. I'm not familiar with that particular player. But, I've read where some H/K players do feature Wolfson DACs.

Best of luck with your purchase.

[Eddie]

bikeman,

to be honest I often get lost in Jan's postings, he can be very esoteric and long-winded. I think I only lasted for about the first 150 posts or so.

[Eddie]

T2T,

thanks for your feedback. Could you go into more detail about what exactly about the Pioneer 578's cd playback that was far inferior to the XCD-88's?

Hell I just might have to check out that little Magnavox you're talking about. $29, hmm sounds like a Walmart deal...they have an awesome return policy!