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Thread: what's your CD player?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    I'd be very glad to follow the advice on this forum and just get a better subwoofer---spent a couple of days with a Hsu STF-2 and was very impressed, compared to my horrific JBL it was like going from a Yugo to a BMW!
    Money spent on quality speakers and subs is money well spent.

    Consider this: the minimum amount of distortion that a person can detect is somewhere between 0.1 and 1%. The distortion of almost any entry level player (from a reputable company) plus the distortion of the AV receiver will be far less than 0.1%. However, many speakers and subwoofers, when pushed to their limits in the lower frequencies, introduce distortions of as much as 10%!

    That's more than 100X the distortion introduced by all other components combined.

    If there were a penny and a dollar on the sidewalk, which one would a smart person pick up first?
    Last edited by Kurt C.; 08-08-2005 at 10:44 AM.

  2. #22
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    I find the real differences are in PRaT. PRaT= pace, rhythm, and timing. Which aren't necessarily the product of the DACs. I think Eddie is embarking on this after hearing the PRaT differences between the Mega changer and my Audio Refinement CDP. These aren't huge differences but they are audible.

    Eddie is supposed to drop my Avia disc off today. Maybe we will have time to play with my Pioneer 563A, Sony Mega Changer, and the Audio Refinement. I hear differences in all three.
    Last edited by Quinn; 08-08-2005 at 09:05 AM.

  3. #23
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    no question - get a better performing sub. the performance increase of the sub far outweighs the performance increase of another transport. i think your current setup will benefit the most from a hsu sub. consider changing your player further down the road. (maybe wait for this hd-dvd/blu-ray thing to shake out)

    the sub would be an improvement where another transport would be more of a fine tuning. i think it's time to trade in the Yugo and get the B&W.
    Last edited by metalaaron; 08-08-2005 at 09:22 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn
    I find the real differences in PRaT. PRaT= pace, rhythm, and timing. Which aren't necessarily the product of the DACs. I think Eddie is embarking on this after hearing the PRaT differences between the Mega changer and my Audio Refinement CDP.

    Eddie is supposed to drop my Avia disc off today. Maybe we will have time to play with my Pioneer 563A, Sony Mega Changer, and the Audio Refinement. I hear differences in all three.
    I'm sure that you believe that you do hear differences. I thought so too until about a week ago.

    Do you have an SPL meter? If so, try this: when Eddie comes by today switch between your best and worst player as many times as you like to familiarize yourself with the distinctive 'sound' of each. Then blindfold yourself, let him switch to an unknown player (or keep the same player as in the previous trial), match volume levels EXACTLY and you tell him which player you think it is. He'll write down the actual player and your answer without telling you whether you were right or wrong. Do this at least 15 times. Make sure you don't cheat by learning to identify the distinctive sound of opening/closing mechanisms etc. Could you guess which one you were hearing more than 66% of the time?

    I was shocked to find out that I couldn't and neither could the 'expert' owner of the shop. Why not?

    Let's remind ourselves of the basics: Assuming there isn't anything drastically wrong with any of the players, the only thing that goes to the DAC is 1s and 0s. The ones and zeros specify not only the frequency of each and every sound that is encoded on the CD, but also their duration (PRaT) and volume level relative to one another.

    It is true that early DACs had issues with something generally referred to as 'clock jitter' which may have resulted in VERY slight timing issues, but according to qualified electrical engineers, those problems were largely resolved >10 years ago. (This is a fact that those who profit from the advertising of companies that sell 20K DACs would rather we didn't know).

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    Johnny,

    It's a CA7ES, that's what it says on the front of the tray. Bought it used, probably about 5-10 years old but appears to be in very good condition, no problems in the 7-8 months I've been using it.

    I did hear an improvement over the cheapie Panasonic DVD player I was using before---smoother and warmer sound. However I have been told on a different audio forum that there have been some big improvements in CD players during the past 10 years.

    This is the first forum I've come across where that's been challenged so I'm eager to hear more about it.

    BTW Johnny, how would you compare the Denon 2900 you demoed to your Toshiba 3950? I heard about the Toshibas only from the referenceaudiomods.com site, they claim it equals the sound quality of "$300-600 players."

    http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Me...gory_Code=MODS
    OK, my bad on the CDP, I am not familiar with that model. I never had the 2900 and 3950 at the same time to compare. I mainly bought the 3950 to replace a DVD changer because it was cheap ($60.00) and very thin so it could fit in my space challenged setup. And since I use a digital connection to my AVR, was not concerned about the analog outs SQ.

    I did compare the 2900 to my NAD T752 AVR when I had it for a demo. I thought I could hear a difference, but it was only with careful listening and A/B ing the two. I thought the 2900 was little more rolled off with the highs than the NAD, but I also thought the 2900 had a blacker background so to speak.

  6. #26
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    Kurt,

    hmm, you are very persuasive indeed...and very rigorous blind-testing methodology too! This is OT, but I wonder how different amps and receivers would fare using the same methodology however...

    Anyways, Quinn has loaned me his Pioneer 563 so I'll A/B it against my Sony ES tonight, and if they are very similar, will take it into the local shop to A/B against their NAD players later in the week.

    Thanks for all your feedback, in any case! I'm looking at the Rocket UFW-10 because it's supposed to be best for music, maybe the STF-2 or 3 as well. If I can convince myself to stick with the Sony then the subwoofer purchase should happen pretty soon...I'm so disgusted with that JBL!!!

  7. #27
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    Bikeman,

    So if I read you correctly, you're saying that what sound differences there are between cheap and more expensive CDPs are due to factors *other* than DACs? More expensive CDPs often claim to have better transports, chassis, etc. which they claim to improve the sound quality so their sales pitch is not based solely on having allegedly bette DACs...

    Would you say then that claimed differences in sound between CDPs are as dubious as claimed differences in sound produced by higher end cables and interconnects? I've long pooh-poohed the cable/interconnect claims myself.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie
    Kurt,

    hmm, you are very persuasive indeed...and very rigorous blind-testing methodology too! This is OT, but I wonder how different amps and receivers would fare using the same methodology however...
    After my own personal discovery, I did some research on the web to figure out whether other people had had the same experience. Turns out they have. Amps have been done too. Check out the following links:

    Masters on Audio/Amplifiers


    The Top 10 Lies (see number 4 in particular)

    PS-I think you'll be happy with any of the subs you mentioned.

  9. #29
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    Funny, I often post Peter Aczel's article myself on other forums, even if there are parts of it I'm not so sure I agree with. The Ian Masters piece was new to me though, thanks.

    However I wouldn't be as quick to accept Master's finding that a $200 receiver sounds the same as say a $1000 one...not on any scientific grounds that I know of (technically I'm very unschooled as you've probably noticed by now, lol) just on my own experience: going from a Sony minisystem to an Onkyo 601 was a HUGE leap, from the Onkyo 601 to a Marantz 5400 was a significant improvement, and from the Marantz to some NAD separates was another big leap. The last transition I can experienced recently while comparing the 170s against another Internet speaker, both of which sounded way better on the NAD than the Marantz.

  10. #30
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    I just discovered "The Audio Critic"--it's a lot of fun.

    After reading the philosophy of the website and subscribing to the 'zine, I was so impressed that I bought all of the available back issues of the print magazine. Those back issues are quite a resource--better than any 'guide to high end audio' that I've read. Granted, Aczel isn't the most tactful guy around, but it is clear that he loves music, tries to be objective, and isn't afraid to speak the truth.

    I think Masters is probably right assuming that the equipment is of reasonable quality and that you don't "push" the amp/receiver/minisystem beyond its limits. (In the case of your minisystem, those limits may be hit about the same time the volume becomes audible..)

    What I'm looking for now is a good way to figure out when I'm approaching the limits of my amplifier. I know that I could just keep turning it up until I hear it start clipping, but I hate to do that to my speakers...

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