Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
So, going from the latest update about the tweeter, looks like this new speaker will still use the existing Sierra cabinet. Dave, is the new dome material sort of a cheaper approach to Beryllium, having great stiffness with higher break up modes? Also, looks like it can be crossed very low.
Yes, plans changed for the better when it turned out the new tweeter actually fit into our existing cabinets. Sierra-1/2 cabinets are well proven for both their looks and performance, and this speaker needs the stiffness of the layered bamboo. I was quite concerned about producing new cabinets during these current global economic issues. Supply chain issues have not improved at all, and container shipment prices as well as delays are practically unmanageable. We have 3 shipments "on the water" right now that should have been here late December and we still don't have firm delivery dates. :mad:
In addition, by using the same cabinets it saves us quite a bit of $$$ which means it is easier for us to reach our target price point.
Quote:
Dave, is the new dome material sort of a cheaper approach to Beryllium, having great stiffness with higher break up modes? Also, looks like it can be crossed very low.
I wouldn't describe it like that. The added magnesium does stiffen up the aluminum significantly which is obviously very beneficial. I know there has been and continues to be a lot of hype regarding Beryllium. In a true Be dome (not AlBe) breakup modes are typically pushed out to 30-35kHz. With this tweeter the breakup modes are up around 26khz, not as high as Be, but still well out of the range of our hearing.
Be domes are very stiff and brittle, and they do not come close to the power handling that this tweeter has. Also, there are only 2 companies that I know of that actually produce pure Be domes, and these are then supplied to manufacturers (SB, Scan, SEAS etc.) There is really no room for customization of the dome. With this tweeter, I am guessing SEAS got involved in the actual shape of the dome in order to optimize dispersion.
And finally, Be is HIGHLY toxic. As good as the Satori Be dome is, it does not have adequate dome protection (unless it is a Be alloy) A misplaced finger or object and that dome will shatter (if pure Be) and that is quite dangerous to us humans.
With the SEAS Be domes (of which I have several), as well as Scan and others, there is always an integrated fine mesh grille to protect the dome.
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=...=50&Itemid=247
SEAS even includes a letter with firm warnings about Be.
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
theophile
[D.F.: Somehow, this tweeter combines some of the best characteristics of the SEAS White Diamond and RAAL ribbons. It isn’t as ribbon-like as a RAAL, nor is it as transparent and detailed as the White Diamond, but rather it is an interesting combination of performance characteristics that make it quite unique. In many ways, it is a ribbon-like dome tweeter, or dome-like ribbon tweeter, the perfect compromise in the middle of those two very different top-of-the-line tweeters.]
Excitement Dave...Great R&D work and all Very Cool!!! :cool:
If I may ask (thank you), have you put the Seas NrT on the NFS for a comparison between it and the Seas Titan 27TAC/GB, both appearing to be more standard top-end dome tweeters? :rolleyes:
Ted
Hi Ted,
At this point, I believe there isn't a single tweeter at our facility, be that a sample or production model that I haven't run a full NFS scan on :)
The NrT dome is a fantastic tweeter, and purely custom built for us. However, it is a soft dome tweeter. The advantage with soft domes is that breakup modes are better damped, providing a less fatiguing sound. The disadvantage is that because they are not stiff, they lose pistonic behavior well into the audible range (depending on the size of the dome), as such they become more directional.
Since I was looking for a dome that would come close to the wide and linear dispersion of the RAAL 70-20, our NrT dome was not suitable. I certainly considered it, but with this project - as I had initially stated, it was reach all of our goals or nothing ;)
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
djDANNY
I don’t know much about tweeters, but is it safe to say that the vertical dispersion of a round dome tweeter is the same as it’s horizontal dispersion? So what we see in the contour map you posted is both representative of the horizontal and vertical dispersion?
Excellent question, and important to this thread. As long as the tweeter faceplate is symmetrical, vertical dispersion of the tweeter will be identical to the horizontal. Not just vertical, but at every circular angle as well, for example 45 degrees would look the same as 90 degs and 0 degs.
This is very different than with a ribbon tweeter, as every circular off-axis angle differs. Domes produce quite a bit more overall energy and for the goals of this speaker, we want that symmetrical off-axis energy.
This is where our NFS has a huge advantage, I am able to look at the response and phase at any spherical off-axis angle and distance. In fact, I recently had a wonderful video call with the Klippel engineer behind the NFS, Christian Bellman, in developing what I feel would be a very useful new measurement metric. With his assistance, we worked out a way to implement this and this will be discussed in this thread later on.
Further to this discussion. Below is the spherical radiation pattern of the 70-20 ribbon at 8kHz.
Attachment 2316
And below is the radiation pattern of the dome tweeter in discussion.
Attachment 2317
Notice how the pattern is nearly perfectly symmetrical throughout the 360 degrees around the center (the center is the location of the tweeter). The darker the color, the higher the energy.
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hometheater
If it used the same cabinet of the Sierra 1/2, would there be an upgrade path?
Also, I wonder how this speaker would match the existing RAAL speakers. Can it mix well in the front LCR soundstage (so it can be updated gradually)?
I actually hadn't thought about an upgrade path, but now that I think about it - sure, easy enough. It would simply be about swapping the tweeter, woofer and crossover.
As far as mixing well with our ribbon speakers, surprisingly - yes, they do work together quite well. There have been times during direct A/B swapping using an 80Hz crossover and precisely level matched, that I haven't been able to tell them apart. Note, the new speaker has even more punch and deeper bass extension than Sierra-2EX, so that gives the speaker away immediately, thus using the 80Hz crossover and level matched to be fair.
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Really exciting news. Might have to pick up a pair
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
I know it's early and it hasn't even been released yet, but what are the chances that a tower version eventually gets released? When I think of big/bold/loud/slam/fun/high power handling/deep bass... I think tower, not bookshelf. No matter how cool the design, Hoffman's iron law always wins. I guess sensitivity is what will probably give, but it will have high power handling, but still...
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
So...... I'm trying to arrive at Dave's initial target price, which, if the price I see for the Revel M106 is accurate, would put these at around $2K/pair. That's going off the price of $2,200 on Crutchfield for a pair of M106's. I see these new drivers are not crazy expensive, at least in their stock form, so I need a little help here...... Dave, I know you like to surprise us with this sort of thing, so hoping your initial target pricing was drastically lowered!!
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
So...... I'm trying to arrive at Dave's initial target price, which, if the price I see for the Revel M106 is accurate, would put these at around $2K/pair. That's going off the price of $2,200 on Crutchfield for a pair of M106's. I see these new drivers are not crazy expensive, at least in their stock form, so I need a little help here...... Dave, I know you like to surprise us with this sort of thing, so hoping your initial target pricing was drastically lowered!!
Without knowing much about anything, I’m thinking these will come in a bit cheaper than the S2-EX. The cabinets, crossover, binding posts, port, stuffing, etc., would be nearly the same cost, I’d imagine. The stock version of the tweeter and woofer appear to be less expensive than the drivers used in the S2-EX, though that doesn’t account for Dave’s customization.
Regardless, I’m sure these will be a value leader at whatever price Dave sets them at.
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
Without knowing much about anything, I’m thinking these will come in a bit cheaper than the S2-EX. The cabinets, crossover, binding posts, port, stuffing, etc., would be nearly the same cost, I’d imagine. The stock version of the tweeter and woofer appear to be less expensive than the drivers used in the S2-EX, though that doesn’t account for Dave’s customization.
Agreed RMW...hopefully their price settles between the Sierra1 and the Luna! ;)
Dave's direct comparison between these and the 2EX will be very interesting! Will there be one that Better fits "Acoustical-non amplified Music" in a dedicated 2.1 channel system (like I have), and one being more appropriate for "Pop-Rock-Electronic-Theater Sound" audio reproduction? :confused:
I suspect they'll be pros and cons both ways, just depending on the applied listening environment of each users taste in reproduced music genre! :cool:
Ted
Re: Big News! Something New, Something A Bit Different...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
The Woofer
Although we have tried, we cannot defy the laws of physics so to reach such deep bass in this small of a cabinet, we have sacrificed about 2dB in sensitivity. This is one of the reasons I required such high power handling.
Some will ask why strive for such deep bass when subwoofers have become so prominent. This goes back to my first post about achieving that energy and excitement, about moving air and pressuring a room and this speaker presents a shockingly huge acoustic scale that belies its small stature.
Where does power and thermal compression come into play with all of this? I’m assuming (purely on logical reasoning and not any specific knowledge I have on this subject) that if you need more power to “play louder” due to the lower sensitivity, that would cause more heat (conservation of energy) on the motor which would then result in more thermal compression.
Can you comment on the cooling capabilities of the motor for this driver and also if the NFS is able to measure this phenomenon in any way?