Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
DR: Nice post! :)
I've stumbled on a very interesting conversation on that RAAL ribbon, which, besides knowing of them as sort of the very expensive holy grail of ribbons before Ascend talked of them, ...
Ok let me just preface with this. For some reason, maybe it's a lack of golden ears or experience/exposure, I've always been 'fine' with ultra high end tweeters. For example, the tweets in the JMLabs Utopia, in the Dynaudio Confidence series, in the B&Ws Nautilus/800 series, in Wilson Audios, etc., all sound fine to me... They're most often the least of my complaints. I've read some complaints about such tweeters, but I guess I'm just not that sensitive to them, and find complaints about them a bit weird. That said, I've also heard a couple of ribbons in Verity audio, ProAcs, MBL, PSB, Aurum Camtus, etc... And as the metal/soft dome featured in the flagship products of most company, also found most of them very very good, and yeah sure in some case did definitely notice a significant difference between these tweeter types, it wasn't as I had been struck by lighting and thought I could never listen to a dome tweeter ever again... It was enough to intrigue me though, and I decided going for a ribbon in my next speakers :)
Having finally 'taken delivery' of the ribbon speaker, my dome vs ribbon experience didn't really translate to the Sierra NrT tweeter vs Fountek NeoCD3.0. Or maybe it did as I was satisfied with both tweeters, but didn't find these two sounded significantly different... :confused: Maybe the Fountek isn't that great for a ribbon, maybe the NrT is very good, maybe I simply suck at "the listening" :p but IMHO, they're both good tweeters and as such, don't sound that different...
The RAAL is a different beast though, and looking up more info on it, I stumbled on an interesting discussion. But before, even before David/Ascend ever talked about the RAAL ribbon, I had heard of that name and heard this was a special tweeter. Very expensive, but as I had heard, one of the best and almost in a class of its own. (Maybe I even heard it but I can't recall..) Now, finally, to the interesting RAAL discussion, discussing out of all things, David F.'s measurements of the said tweeter! :D http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...e-RAAL-70-20XR Very interesting discussion! Some quotes from it:
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Originally Posted by Ryan
I was impressed by the RAAL when I heard it. Though, it was probably the most expensive tweeter on display that day, and I've only had one other experience where I _really_ got to listen to a $200+ dome. I would like to hear the RAAL back to back against a similarly well implemented very expensive dome tweeter. I trust Pete's ears, but.... trust but verify.
Just to stir the pot, it is interesting to read some of DavidF's comments in that thread w/ regards to the RAAL:
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*RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade will add $350 for each speaker. This price is expected to increase significantly once our current supply runs out.
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I will say this in advance, I was surprised at the results – this particular RAAL ribbon tweeter is as close to a near perfect high frequency transducer as I can imagine. More specifically, I honestly can’t imagine that I will ever have the privilege of measuring anything better. Forget reading subjective descriptions of it… I have documented it in detailed measurements
While the ribbon is indeed objectively superior, many listeners still prefer the sound of the NrT. So much depends on your source material and your own preferences -- it is very subjective.
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And this is where things can get dangerous No, you certainly do not need better electronics. However, the ribbon is extremely revealing and about as high resolution as a transducer can get. It will more easily reveal lesser electronics than a dome tweeter.
GirgleMirt note: Hmmm... Maybe it could be my source/electronics too? :confused:
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Going with the ribbons is a very expensive option and while the differences are audible, that difference is probably not worth the expense for most of our customers.
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I believe for loud and dynamic home theater, most rock and hip hop -- the NrT will probably be preferred.
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I kind of cherry picked some choice quotes, but shocking to read from a guy trying to upsell a $700 option. I had Ascend speakers prior to my DIY days. I always liked DavidF. I thought he was a real straight shooter.
EM
This I think sums up my thoughts on the matter, after the NrT upgrade, another tweeter upgrade, this one probably more expensive than the NrT upgrade, just wouldn't rock my world... I'd most probably skip it as I'm perfectly fine with the top end performance of the NrTs, and wouldn't invest hundreds of $ at this time for a 'marginal' upgrade... But that's me, the 'tweeter sounds fine' guy! A woofer or 3 way upgrade, probably would be more tempting as a mid/bass improvement would imho be more doable or significant than improving the top end...
But reading the thread; RAAL vs Fountek:
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This is like comparing an RS28F to an Aircirc. Both are fantastic but it's not just two versions of the same thing, even though it's similar technology, there's still differences that two or three graphs alone won't show but other graphs should. Or is an RS28F as good as a Beryllium Aircirc?
One such example i've seen is people who compare Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic 1s (fountek neocd3, SB 8") with his Phil 3s (RAAL 70-10d, SS Revelator 8") - so far they've all said that while the differences in bass/lower midrange are minimal, but the differences in tweeters are well worth it, and so they consider the Phil 2s (RAAL 70-10d, SB 8") to be the optimal choice dollar for dollar.
Anyhow, I guess more reading and more listening in my case is required!
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to sum up, you and I both admit that the RAAL test better from a dispersion standpoint, and a linearity standpoint (response). From a non-linear standpoint, the RAAL 70-10 and 2.0 have a similar overall cutoff frequency before THD exceeds 1% (~2500Hz). However, above that frequency, the RAAL has lower overall distortion, even though both are predominantly 2nd order. The MUCH lower moving mass of the ribbon element in the 70-10 simply does more, with less, and exhibits a more realistic presentation to the ears. I don't care if both of them were $10 each. I'd still take the 70-10 over the 2.0 every time. They just sound better. It does suck that they are expensive due to being hand made and tested. But they are amazingly consistent.
Not sure whether the Fountek '2' they're talking about is the Neo X or Neo CD models, but anyway, again, RAAL, costing about 3-4x as much as Founteks, are found to be better ;)
But anyhow, it all depends on application too as they mention... To my ears, the Founteks sound great, and the NrTs surely don't sound like mushy jello or tin cans compared to them... Some random notes/quotes on the Fountek and it's selection criteria in the design I went with:
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The extended range of the W4-1337SA's enabled a high tweeter crossover point, and an easy cross to a ribbon tweeter. The Fountek NeoCd3.0 seemed like a great choice. All the drivers exhibit high marks for value, which gives this design a high performance to cost ratio.
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The top end had to have realistic reproduction of triangles and cymbals while extracting the ambiance of the recording venue.
...
The only tweeter considered for the project was the Fountek NeoCD3.0. It fit perfectly in the over all design goals and the extended frequency response of the W4 allowed the ribbon to be crossed at a high enough frequency to minimize distortion. A perfect match!
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Treble: Cymbals sound like cymbals and the sound of triangles float in the air. Love or hate ribbons but they do a better job of realistically reproducing the highs to my ears than any other type of tweeter. The highs are open and airy with great off axis dispersion.
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Treble, well, I love ribbons so it's a hands down winner in that respect for me.
IMHO, as stated, the Fountek is <100$ and probably not the best ribbon tweeter on earth, but it's definitely no slouch. As for the NrT, I don't know exactly how it would compare to an AirCirc, 7000, Crescendo, etc., but to my ears, it does a really good job, which in the end is quite similar to the Fountek NeoCD3.0... :)
But for tweeter upgrade, going from the quote of Dave's quotes on RAAL vs NrT, makes me doubt a little more the tweeter upgrade... Well I don't know, guess we'll just have to see!
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
Dark Ranger
This was one possibility I considered as well, something like a "Signature Edition" upgrade for the Sierra-1: new woofer, tweet, and crossover. However, while the DIY should be applicable, the issue I see is cost. The Sierra drivers are already very high quality. Then you run into questions like:
- what tweeter would be an upgrade to the NrT, but not cost an internal organ?
Oh yeah, and btw, did you hear the Sierra NrT tweeter? I'm just somewhat reluctant or doubtful at the notion of upgrading the NrT tweeter, as my own listening experience and perception of the whole thing is that it's a great tweeter and upgrading it will cost an arm and might even be moot...
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Originally Posted by
Dark Ranger
- what would a new bass driver give? Deeper extension, better mids, better efficiency? Etc., etc.
- so how much is replacing all the guts going to cost me?
For your 1st point, exactly! 2nd, again, just the woofer might be doable, how much would it cost? :confused: That's the question... But I'd see little reason to upgrade the NrT tweeter... So maybe not that much more than the NrT upgrade...
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While I agree that a mid-woofer addition would be "uber performance," the design could be checkmated based on Dave's quote I pulled from the first page. That seemed to be a show-stopper for the Sierra-1 3-way design (at least at the time).
The difference in sensitivity you mean? That would only apply to using the tower's mid, I'd see no reason a new or modified mid couldn't be done...
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My thought was to go simple: same width and depth as the Sierra-1 cabinet, and high enough to accommodate the 5.25" mid-woofer. However, it also increases cost since more direct materials are used. Furthermore, the Sierra-1 would be more imposing and harder to place. It's probably pushing the limits of a "bookshelf" design. If a smaller woofer is used, I'm not sure how much performance one would give up for a slightly smaller module.
yeah mids can be smaller, lighter, etc., since the bass woofer will handle the bass so you really don't have to go 5 inch.. Imposing/harder to place, naaaah, I'd be incredibly surprised if 95% of Sierra owners didn't have a couple of extra inches free on top of their Sierras... Most don't put the speakers in a bookshelf!
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Note to all: I'm having some fun discussing this upgrade. However, because my design experience is infinitesimal compared to Dave's, I have no illusions of competence. I hope he has a good laugh at my expense. Seriously. :D
haha, same here, all discussions on the topic are for a purely recreative purpose and shouldn't be taken seriously or as true in any sort of way! :p I'd say my knowledge on speaker design or theory would probably earn me like a 3/10, and I'm being generous!!! :D
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
curtis
Girgle...I have heard a few different ribbon tweeters, I can tell you they don't sound the same.
Oh, and btw Curtis, could you share more of your thoughts on Ribbon tweeters, RAAL, NrT, etc.? I for one would have loved to say that the ribbon tweeter of the speakers that took dozens and dozens of hours for me to build blew away the NrT, but short A/B comparison told a different story! ;)
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
Wow, you guys crack me up! Won't you all be dissapointed when Dave announces the "uber" upgrade to be improved binding posts:D
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
GirgleMirt
Oh, and btw Curtis, could you share more of your thoughts on Ribbon tweeters, RAAL, NrT, etc.? I for one would have loved to say that the ribbon tweeter of the speakers that took dozens and dozens of hours for me to build blew away the NrT, but short A/B comparison told a different story! ;)
Hard to describe...
Sounds smoother with more detail, but that is kind of a contradiction.
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
curtis
Hard to describe...
Sounds smoother with more detail, but that is kind of a contradiction.
haha k, I feel like I'm pulling worms from your nose ;) So it seems your comments was about the RAAL tweeter vs NrT, and not all ribbon tweeter.. My experience was mainly with the Fountek as mentioned. Btw did you get the RAAL towers?
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
I got it!!
A direct/reflecting tweeter array! Finally, licensing has become available from the inventor of this coveted technology, B*se, and now we Ascend customers will finally benefit!!
So when do we get the one-note bass Acoustamass technology to go with it?;)
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
merrymaid520
Wow, you guys crack me up! Won't you all be dissapointed when Dave announces the "uber" upgrade to be improved binding posts:D
Upgraded binding posts? I never thought about that option. Sweet!! :D
I love the current Sierra-1 binding posts, but I've always felt it colored the sound in a palpable way. The vocal presence seemed overly crystalline with not enough top-end air, while bass delivery could be a touch "wooden."
I think the overall sonic quality of the Sierra-1 could be improved by upgrading the binding post material. The best choice would be to use superconducting rhenium overlaid with a graphite/Delrin shield. The added benefit is that it could filter out harmful RF waves commonly known to impact sound quality.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to throw up now. :p
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
Did you guys not get the email from Dave :confused:????
The first upgrade is the stand for the Sierra. This will host the Rotary sub for the low frequencies. The sierra woofer will also move down here in a separated compartment and be servo controlled.
Uptop on the speaker cabinet, a new beryllium midrange will fit into the hole where the woofer use to reside. The last upgrade will be a plasma tweeter (have not read about this technology but from the looks of it, it should keep those pesky little fingers away after the first touch).
You guys creating all these rumors. :rolleyes:
Re: Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase?
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Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
I got it!!
A direct/reflecting tweeter array! Finally, licensing has become available from the inventor of this coveted technology, B*se, and now we Ascend customers will finally benefit!!
So when do we get the one-note bass Acoustamass technology to go with it?;)
Everyone knows B**e is the best. ;)
Funny story: back when I worked in live audio, I had a friend who mixed some of the shows as front of house engineer. I did enjoy his style of mixing, although some of the venues did give us a challenge. Anyway, I went over his house one time for a movie marathon. I heard he had quite a sound system. Imagine my surprise when I discovered a 5.1 Acoustimass setup! I never did figure out why...maybe he just liked the tiny cubes. :p
