I thought it was funny. Relax everyone this is the interrant, nobody needs to take their ball and go home. I am about to order some Ascends...where can I get the cable forged in Mt. Doom? I gotta have that!
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I thought it was funny. Relax everyone this is the interrant, nobody needs to take their ball and go home. I am about to order some Ascends...where can I get the cable forged in Mt. Doom? I gotta have that!
I respect that Curtis shut it down. Why should we have to put up with Rockteer behavior here that has bought at least one forum to lock down all speaker threads. Brad gave two cool it warnings that were ignored including both sides the first time.
I was speaking in general terms, not really targetting anyone. Then Heretic goes and flames me, the flame gets to stand, and I get no rebuttal? I think not. Bye!
It's just that why lock a thread? (Not just here, anywhere) I can see REMOVING a thread if it is that offensive to people but to lock it? It's still there is it not? But I don't really know what I am talking about...haven't for years.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azanon
I was speaking in general terms, not really targetting anyone. Then Heretic goes and flames me, the flame gets to stand, and I get no rebuttal? I think not. Bye!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Actually it's hectic1...but who's asking anyway...I'm not quite sure how I "flamed" you though...I simply asked if you had experience in measuring speakers. You thought it would be funny to post some "hilarious" response to egg on someone that obviously has no idea what they are talking about to elicit a response...well I gave you one.[:o)]
Like Rodney K. said, "can't we all just get along?".
Bradley,
While I normally greatly appreciate humor (if you met me you'd know), there's a time and place for it and humurous mocking of another company when tensions are a bit high and there is already discussion of 'bashing' probably isn't the best time. That said, I think locking has more to do with the fact that not all of the comments in the thread seemed to be good natured and certainly weren't seen as good natured.
I wouldn't want to see you go and I hope you can see my point of view. We've certainly had lots of great discussion on this forum and I hope to see a lot more.
As for 'why lock?', it's an online forum method of behavior modification - no two ways about it. It isn't about removing offensive statements, but about slapping people on the wrist when things get out of hand. Of course I didn't lock it, so you'd have to ask curtis about his exact reason.
Thanks for the lead in Brad.
I locked it for that very reason....there is no need to mock the other companies methods. We may not agree with them and we can certainly discuss them with out mocking. A good natured discussion is much more appropriate.
With good discussions we may be able to learn more, and ask more questions.
Perhaps a warning or two from me would have been more appropriate, but I was busy doing my departmental budget, and ofcourse trying to read the posts on both threads. I am hoping my budget does not get kicked back to me.
Brad, thanks for trying to keep order.
If you guys want to keep questioning me, go right ahead, I do not have much to do tonight.
-curtis
It's been quite some time since I've had much time to devote to our audio hobby ( since college and now I'm 44). My business has kept me away from many hobbies unfortunately. With a desire to find a high quality and affordable system I went to the internet to find as much info as possible. While I don't approve of outright bashing of ones personal tastes in audio I did enjoy the somewhat satirical comments of Azanon and Jake. I didn't feel the intentions were to offend anyone (or company) in particular but were humorously pointing out the exact same thing that came to mind when I investigated the Rocket line- that there was an overwhelming desire by the Rocket followers to convince the auditioning customer that there was something wrong with him-his room-his equipment-his emotions-the phase of the moon etc. For a relative newbie this is quite obvious- (I am qualified to make this statement!) One thing that I have gleaned from all the surfing I have done before I purchased my Ascends is that all speakers have their own signature and I beleive that the Ascend followers, this Forum and the Ascend Company itself has done an excellent job in communicating this. With the accurate opinions conveyed to me thru the various forums I felt that on order day that I knew exactly what my new speakers would sound like. I didn't want or have time for alot of tweaking and/or additional purchases to make "me" happy. That is what won me over to the Ascend line (and am grinning ear to ear as I listen to them at this very moment!) I expected excellent results when I first hooked up the cables- and I definately got it. Plug and Play- no surprises! In closing I think that the folks from Ascend, the Ascend Forum and the Ascend consumers deserve to be able to "puff their chest" now and then for being associated with a product that delivers such incredible perfomance.
Randy
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Actually it's hectic1...but who's asking anyway...I'm not quite sure how I "flamed" you though...I simply asked if you had experience in measuring speakers. You thought it would be funny to post some "hilarious" response to egg on someone that obviously has no idea what they are talking about to elicit a response...well I gave you one<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
No you have no idea what you're talking about. I assumed an average level of intelligence here, but that clearly was not applicable to you. My point was, my Ascends sounded wonderful right out of the box. No alignment with the planets was necessary. Oh sure, i had some issues with my receiver, and some rear speaker mounts, but that had nothing to do with the Ascends. An indirect conclusion both Jake and I came to from MLS's response in that other thread was, that's not necessarily the case with the RS750s. I'm sorry on your behalf you obviously missed the point, and the humor.
And I dont give a rats ass what your name is, evidenced by my mispelling it.
To the mods: Heretic got two shots at me now. That's my only and final one.
bradjudy/curtis,
You guys have been respectful from beginning to end, no problem there. Probably the thing I find most enjoyable on forums is the ability to debate with such large #'s of like-minded people. Naturally, there's some heat that goes with them from time to time. AVS Inc/av123 seems to be taking a rather laid back approach to it (they'll close a thread, but it takes a lot), you guys, including David, wanna keep it quite a bit tighter. I prefer the former. No harm, no foul. Not every messageboard is for everyone.
David, I dont think a competition, in any form, necessitates a wedge between you, MLS, and/or whomever else. I tend to suscribe to your former explanation a week or so back, which explained that your relationship and/or coexistences are mutually beneficial. I truly believe that, per your detailed explanation to that effect (which i'll not repost). I sort of envisied you two guys laughing about this at a bar somewhere thinking how great business is per you guys wonderful products; 100s of folks fighting over which of your speakers they'll buy. It ends in one of your speakers being purchased! And hey - I dont blame them! I'm a believer!
I guess some might be turned off by an associated, aggressive messageboard. I just wanted the best speaker for the money though :-).
But for the record, getting flamed doesnt bother me. I certainly ask for it at times. But not being able to respond? Now, THAT does.
Azanon
Azanon - Locks fall where they fall, otherwise threads would just keep spiraling as everyone got in their 'last words'. Someone is always going to get in before it and others won't. If you feel the need for more words after a lock, I think it's best to take it offline into PMs or e-mails. A lock demonstrates that a moderator doesn't want the conversation to continue and you said you respected that in your openning post of this thread. I appreciate that even though I'm not a moderator.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If you feel the need for more words after a lock, I think it's best to take it offline into PMs or e-mails<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I realize its luck of the draw, my main complaint was the "early trigger" (see the title). To your second comment, you do recognize the inadequacy of a public shot see by all, merely countered with a private email right? Not exactly fair.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by azanon
[quote]
No you have no idea what you're talking about. I assumed an average level of intelligence here, but that clearly was not applicable to you. My point was, my Ascends sounded wonderful right out of the box. No alignment with the planets was necessary. Oh sure, i had some issues with my receiver, and some rear speaker mounts, but that had nothing to do with the Ascends. An indirect conclusion both Jake and I came to from MLS's response in that other thread was, that's not necessarily the case with the RS750s. I'm sorry on your behalf you obviously missed the point, and the humor.
And I dont give a rats ass what your name is, evidenced by my mispelling it.
To the mods: Heretic got two shots at me now. That's my only and final one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
azanon, I'm not quite sure what your issue is as I haven't taken any "shots" at you here. Why don't you take a moment and go back and read my post again...Look at who is the one personally attacking people around here. I evidentally have no idea what I'm talking about huh? I'll ask you again, do you have experience measuring speakers? Do you have experience with Rockets? I feel that most speaker will sound better after break in and proper positioning...would you agree? I have NEVER had an issue getting my Rockets dialed in...Have you and Jake also come to the conclusion that Ascend speakers would never need to be positioned properly to sound good? HHMM, you admitt that you were making fun of Rockets?
Evidenally you don't care what my name is as you have no respect for people.
To the mods, azanon has taken 2 shots at me!!![:X]
That was my first response to you hectic. My original posts were regarding MLS's post. If you made a similar post, i was completely unaware.
hectic, you've taken this so far offbase, i'm not going to continue. Again, jake and i were just poking fun at all the apparent adjustments that are needed for a fair rs750 comparison. The reviewer didnt do anything special to the 170s either, but they "won". I'm not suggesting modifications/adjustments arn't helpful for the 170s too. But what I am saying is, cbm170s sound superb right out of the box. That's it. Nothing more.
It was intended as a joke, and definitely was not targeted at you,..... not the post in the other thread anyway. Sorry if it offended you dude, but you clearly attacked me twice prior to me responding to you once. Re your name: You brought that on by pettily correcting me. Ask and ye shall receive, dude.
Lets quit this, eh hectic?
azanon, whether I made the post or MLS made the post shouldn't matter. The simple fact is that ALL speaker will benefit from proper placement...
I have no doubts that Ascends are superb right out of the box and you have never seen me say that they aren't. I understand that Ascends, Rockets, Klipsch, etc all will have a different sound and there is no "perfect" sound for everyone. I was simply posting here to give you guys all the information as I was the person that Mike was working with on getting both the ROCKETS and ASCEND speakers dialed in.
I'm cool with you as all I want at the end of the day is for Mike to find the right speaker for him whether that be Ascend, Rocket, or whatever...[8D]
Have a good night...
respectfully,
Bob
Maybe it is time to re-post this post I made a month ago on another thread about a review on audioreview-
1/10/04
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Quinn
While, Mad Dog's fevor towards all things Onix/Rockets has IMO increased. I really doubt he would do such a thing. He frequently posts that the Ascend 170s are a great value. Now as for someone cutting and pasting from one of his posts is quite possible.
Your feelings toward Mad Dog reminds me of some emails Curtis and I traded right before Smokey with Curtis' assistance got this forum on-line. Those e-mails were how to keep this place and our posts on other boards helpful and informative regarding Ascend w/o creating any backlash like the Rockets' crowds have done a number of times.
If you were reading AVSforum previous to about six months ago you likely saw how much time MLS of AV123 spent defending positions that Rocket-heads had put him in. Also, the number of threads locked down because of the firestorm that occurred anytime a poster questioned a Rockets product or MLS was pretty high. I personally think the av123 forum came about because it was easier for MLS to give the Rocket/Onix/Perpetual Technologies fans a place to post and pat each on the back w/o causing an uproar on one the boards, then it was for him to spend so much time defending himself and his products on other boards. Again, these were positions that Rocket fans had managed to put him in not anything he'd done himself. Avsforum was the second home of the Rocketeers. I believe they,the rocket crowd, settled in there after getting tired of the hostilities at Harmonic Discord after much of the same stuff.
It was not all their fault but how you respond to trolls, and there were many, effects perception of the company in addition to the poster.
And now I can't stand to go on av123 community and only do so to checkout a post referenced from another board. I still have a negative view of the Rocketeers to this day and am so sick of them I'll likely never buy an av123 product. BTW-- I do recommend the ELT to those whose parameters it fits. I can also vouch for the great CS at av123 as I bought speaker cable from there before I got sick of it all.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The main point is how you respond to trolls(and those with a different opinion)has an effect on how people perceive the product and company as well as how they perceive the poster.
I guess I need to look at myself because I don't always walk the walk about this.
Bob,
I'm probably too lazy to go back and look at MLS's first response to "santaeruza". But just going on recollection, i recalled it being much more than just placement issues; it was a bunch of complicated stuff, at least for layfolks like me, as well as some expensive equipment that was needed. Just FYI, my Ascends came with a very basic guidebook that included proper spacing, proper height, and suggested toeing. I did that stuff, and i'm sure santa did that with the rs750s as well.
So i'm admitting to you what you're saying; I'm not an expert when it comes to complicated audio adjustments. As a consumer that just wants great, affordable speakers, i needed a super product that would function as it was intended with just basic, anyone-can-do-it, adjustments. That's all my 170s got. Thanks to clutchbrake, they were balanced by an SPL meter as well. Certainly appreciated, but the 170s sounded great before the SPL meter too. My sub benefited the most from the SPL meter anyway, not the 170s.
Bradley
Heredity57...settle down. You made the first jab at azanon...go back and read it. There's no question.
Also, Azanon's and my posts do NOT blatantly bash the Rockets. They are taking a humorous stance at what we've observed on the Rocket Forum.
Why the big reaction? Because the posts have a lot of truth in them.
The truth hurts doesn't it?
I mean c'mon...selling a $1500 "tuning" software for a speaker that only costs $1400? Who the heck in their right mind would buy that? I can see if the speakers costs $40,000 that maybe it would justify the costs, but $100 more than the speakers?
Another thing...SPEAKER STANDS...FOR TOWERS. Hullo? Made by the manufacturer no doubt.
All these little side items being sold for the 750 can only mean one thing...even av123 knows the sound is lacking...bigtime.
I thought our posts were pretty funny. Even the church of AV123 followers must have found some humor in it.
Heredity234...go and read the "muffled 750" post on the av123 forum. You'll see some of the crazy suggestions I was getting at in my post.
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calm down...you don't have to read it.
Sheesh, just having a little fun.
I though the internet was supposed to be fun?
By the way...a new batch of wire just arrived from Mt. Doom.
Lemme know if anyone wants a pair. It won't make a physical difference in your sound, but psychologically it will.
OK....so I get back from dinner to read this stuff. Lets chill a bit. Tomorrow, like DF suggested in his letter to us, I will create a section for "Humorous Musing" with some kind of disclaimer stating they are only personal opinions and are read at your own risk.......or something like that.
As for wire....I agree, my new speaker cables that I made do not seem to make a difference, but I like they way the look.
-curtis
My last post was an attempt at closure too, and I felt like Bob and I were getting there. I agree, lets not continue beating this issue anymore.
Humurous Musings? lol. I think i'll pass. If i get in the mood to rip an individual or company a "new one", i'll go with AVS, Inc. Agree Jake? This is America baby, and i'm all for maximum exposure if I feel convicted enough about something or I think some unfair practices (to consumers) are occurring. This forum has few enough visitors as it is. Besides, arn't we defeating the purpose of that (annoying) disclaimer when you enter the site anyway?
As ive heard MLS say more than once.... you're entitled. Damn straight i am MLS, but thanks for pointing that out anyway :-).
Azanon
This post is to Azanon in specific and others in general. To everyone, I’m sorry for the length this grew to – good luck reading it if you choose. Jake the troll: have what fun you will - I will continue to enjoy laughing *at* you.
Azanon, I also like some bite in my humor, but I’d like to share a feeling that’s developed over a few years of living. To ensure the humor is enjoyed I believe you need to make the friend *first* and then make sure they understand when you are using humor. That being said, we are all still human, and make mistakes in what we say and write. Sometimes things need to be retracted if it becomes clear they were misunderstood.
Now to the bulk (and it is bulky) of my message. IMO a lot of misinformation has been stated (mostly by the aforementioned Jake), and many have seen red too much to respond well. Anyway, here’s my rambling take on a lot of the bashing that’s been going on:
I laugh at comparing the CBM-170s to the Rocket 750s. That a comparison would even be interesting shows what value is available with the Ascend monitors. I actually tune that out as the only comparison I’d be interested in would be bookshelf to bookshelf - the 170s vs. 250s, or Onix Ref1 for that matter.
Re speaker measurements: I'm not knowing how the speakers were measured, but it seems obvious to me that if you put the microphone too near to one part of the speaker and some drivers are more distant, that the speakers aren't going to sound "right." The drivers extend a large physical distance on the 750s while the drivers on the 170s are right next to each other.
I'd also guess that one could use the CBM-170s as nearfield monitors and place them near your ears - heck, maybe even strap them onto your ears. The same goes for other bookshelf/monitor speakers (personally, I happen to like headphones - I find them lighter. [:)]) Interestingly, I'd also think that a tower speaker that uses only two drivers could be used that nearfield – it just comes with it’s own stand built in, Ok, maybe the larger enclosure buys you something too. However, the 750s have a driver array, take some space for the soundwaves from the driver array to coalesce. That can be bad for some applications but good for others. What do I get out of the whole discussion: that 750s shouldn’t be used as headphones.
Re SOCS: SOCS is for *any speaker.* It just happens to have been demoed on the 750. Heck, if you want you could use that “$1500 program” for $100 speakers. The interesting question is, is it better to spend $40,000 for speakers, or $100 + $1500. It’s an audiophile question. Without the extra $1500, don’t ask it. It is *not* $1500 more to correct a $1500 mistake.
IMHO, this technology is going to be a lot more widely applied in the future. It’s something to enjoy speculating about as it is only just about to be born. One speculation is that sometime in the future, when you buy your Ascend CBM17,000s and they will come with a little flashcard. You plug that flashcard into your receiver and it will do the correction. My personal hope however is that they will license the full RCS system to receivers, including the MMK programming and coefficient derivation software. It's probably a HTPC thing...
Re cables: Hmmm, Ascend sells speaker cables. Jake's malicious comments could be used there just as well. Why isn’t plain zipcord enough? The same goes for high-end vs. throwaway interconnects – that’s a whole different flame war that will rage forever… It's just brought in here for machine gun effect.
Re 750 stands - I agree with his point, but in no way his phraseology. Interesting also that Ascend has speaker stands for exactly the same price as the Rocket Risers…. In general, I increase the cost of any monitor speaker by the needed price of stands. Maybe the 750s are just monitors with a 4-driver woofer array. (OK, so they still suck for nearfield applications [:)] ).
But I'd like to return to the whole “how to conduct ourselves on these kinds of forums” question. I for one marvel that we get to interact with all levels of people from the audio world on these forums. There are the people creating the products, like Mr. Fabrikant or Mr. Schifter. I am respectful to these people. To me, it’s an amazing opportunity afforded us by the internet - I think it’s a shame to waste it by insulting them. I may have no interest in a micro-cube/bass module Lifestyle system; but I would not treat Omar [edit] Amar [:I][/edit] **** with anything but respect and I’d be mightily interested in what he had to say.
There are people who’ve spent a lot of time on this hobby – from them I hope to “cheat” and avoid the lessons they may have painfully (expensively?) had to learn. But many of them are highly opinionated. I listen to what they say, try not to insult them, and take what they say as anecdotal. Here, I apply a quote from Dr. Dean Edell: “The plural of anecdote is not data.”
Then are others like me, who want to learn, share a little of what they see, and maybe a little humor. There’s a lot of us out there, some of them pretend to more knowledge than they have. To that end I remember a phrase from a long time ago (I can’t remember the source for it however): “The Internet is an exercise in anarchy.”
Finally, there are those I can’t understand, nor do I enjoy, Here’s a quote from Robert Heinlein from which I derive how I treat them: “Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate–and quickly.”
I am in *no way* advocating any kind of violence. In applying it here, I make major effort trying to understand wherever someone comes from in their writing. If I can’t find any way to read it that makes any kind of sense, or if it seems needlessly malicious – I dismiss it and don’t let it aggravate me.
In *major* risk of being pedantic, I hope this has been helpful. It is my way of trying to give back to the forums that have given so much to me.
enjoy,
Eric
Eric,
Glad to see you here, and thank you for your thoughts.
You post here and the points you have made or tried to make, will open up more questions and debate.
Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better".
Speaker measurements - Mad Dog posted measurements of the ELT, RS750, and Ref1. His findings were not near the AV123 specs. But, his methods were not questioned. Can you explain to me why? Whose specs are more accurate?
SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?
The stands for the Ascend monitors vs Rocket Risers you have shown is not apples to apples. It is implied that monitors should be a certain height, and to achieve this, you place them on something. This is not the case for tower/floorstanding speakers. The RS750 is sold as a floorstanding speaker. Or are you implying misinformation? The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".
-curtis
Cables: best to say I'm a wire agnostic and leave it at that. I've had my poor RatShack interconnects publically "dissed" before.
Speaker measurement: I'm only replying to Jake's tirade, which I was I believe about the measurements taken at the Oregon speaker mfr location. Please *do* question MD's methods - heck, I question them; and I question Tom Nousaine's methods with subwoofers for that matter. I also question Sterrophiles objectivity. There's all kinds of methods for speaker measurement, and knowing what was done (and by whom) might help you evaluate what worth it provides to you. If you think this is bad, look at subwoofer comparisons. [:0]
SOCS: Who presented anything as an independent "review?" I think we've been lucky to get reports from inside parties. The most interesting thing from MD or hectic1's reports to me has been that these people who like their Ref1 monitors for two-channel audio now find the SOCS-equipped speaker is competition.
I'm one who (I consider myself lucky enough to) got to hear a pre-release demo. I did write up my comments on audiocircle, but it was intended as "WOW! wait for what's coming up." I also wanted to explain an analogy I'd had that day comparing audio-frequency spectral smearing to how an image looks when you look through a prism.
Who knows how long this technology will take to trickle to more widespread application (if it will at all). The only recommendation I'd make right now is that if someone had a P-1A in hand that they might not want to sell it, or if you found one cheap and were curious about SOCS, it might be a real-good deal - Nothing more.
The demo happened to be on a 750, but to me a valid statement would be that the CBM-170s with SOCS might sound better than [your choice of $3,000 monitors]. That was the intended point of saying this technology is confusing (ticking off?) some of those who have been chasing this ideal with lots of dollars.
And IMO I totally agree with the price of the 750s being the price of the 4-driver-array monitors and their stubby stands. Or put them on your own little platforms. Or cut down the legs on your sofa. Or sit on the floor. Maybe a mistake was made in the design - I don't know. Maybe they should include the risers and raise the cost.
One could raise the question of why the CBM170s don't come with a prettier design or don't cost as little as a pair of Fluance monitors. It is a specious argument. How much do you want to pay for your speakers? Do you like how they sound (and look)?
But as to how Jake put it? To borrow from Bull Durham (and hopefully a smile to some people's faces):
"Well, I believe in the soul, ...[edited out for family hour], the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good Scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter, I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long slow deep soft wet kisses that last three days."
And I believe that "Jake"'s purpose is to inflame, not to inform through humor.
enjoy,
FYI...
The SOCS relesase coming up is ONLY for the 750's.
It was ONLY programmed for the 750's, I believe, according to MLS.
Marketing, Marketing, Marketing
****, ****, ****
Garbage, Garbage, Garbage.
Again...my opinion.
Jake,
There has been mention that SOCS will be available for other speakers later down the road, and that there will be a "kit" so people can customize the software for whatever speaker they own. If the later happens, then I think we can see some more interesting posts.
Eric,
You have heard a SOCS on a RS750? Can you point me to where you posted your thoughts?
-curtis
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Azanon, I also like some bite in my humor, but I’d like to share a feeling that’s developed over a few years of living. To ensure the humor is enjoyed I believe you need to make the friend *first* and then make sure they understand when you are using humor. That being said, we are all still human, and make mistakes in what we say and write. Sometimes things need to be retracted if it becomes clear they were misunderstood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well, now I was mostly defending Jake, Eric. I dont think I really crossed any line, other than perhaps my lashing out at Bob once -and i'd like to think we've since made up. My snickering at what MLS said was just reinterpreting what it sounded like to a lay-folk; a bunch of complex adjusment needed to make RS750s sound right - something i'd never be able to do. I wasnt making fun of him, just the situation, that make sense? Now I'll admit I do share Jake's humor regarding "Rockets" approach (not sure the name of their company, lol) to slashing 50% off their speakers, then jacking it back up. I believe MLS has to be accountable to the consumers for that, so I think that's fair game. I understand others, like BradJudy, are perfectly ok with that. Regardless, if Ascend ever does that, I hope I never find out because I couldn't help but feel like i got ripped off. Speakers arn't like, say, computers where an existing technology will sell for half the price 1 and one half years later because they will have increased that much in performance in that time (Moore's law).
As for retraction, I don't believe in regretting what you say. If regret is really necessary, it should be a major exception to the rule, especially for someone as old as I am (32). My approach is clarification, when its needed. Truth isn't always pleasant, and I don't personally think that someone has to be my enemy simply because I disagree on this point, or that point. I dont make friends well with sensitive people, as I tend to be quite blunt. So if the other feels agreement on all issues is necessitated for friendship, oh well! I dont believe in compromising values to make a "false friend".
Azanon
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by curtis
Jake,
There has been mention that SOCS will be available for other speakers later down the road, and that there will be a "kit" so people can customize the software for whatever speaker they own. If the later happens, then I think we can see some more interesting posts.
Eric,
You have heard a SOCS on a RS750? Can you point me to where you posted your thoughts?
-curtis
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http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/v...t=5708&start=0
Actually, if I understand it right, the software is a general phase and volume correction. The coefficients can either correct for either the speaker-only (SOCS) or for the whole speaker and room part of the audio chain (everything from the electrical signal at the end of the wire to your ear) (RCS). If you want the second, or if they have not yet developed coefficients for your specific speaker, you use the mobile measurement kit (MMK) to measure your equipment and then send it back to them to develop the corrections coefficients.
The last set of demos Mr. Schifter has been giving were with a set of RS750 coefficients. It have read about demonstrations of earlier instantiations using Vandersteens and Martin Logans at different times - I don't recall the models.
It will be an audiophile-thing for some time, what with the cost. Maybe in a few years, when we're all driving anti-grav floating cars, we'll be able to have the receiver tell our Asimo robot to wander over to the speakers, take the measurements, and then it will correct the room. More likely, I'll have to choose between the Ascend Acoustics and AV123 nerve implants that broadcast sight, sound, and smell directly to my brain.
But then we''ll be saying that the Onix nerve implants make wine smell like soda pop! [:D]
enjoy!
Curtis,
Boy...where to start? I guess this is as good a place as any...
Quote: Yes, Ascend does sell speaker wire, a third party brand. But nowhere on this forum has anyone said "the Ascend speaker wire will make your speakers sound better."
So you're actually stating that the speaker cable sold by Ascend has no sonic value whatsoever, but is purely for looks? But wait a second - what about this...
Quote: The very notion of Rocket Risers implies that "we know that enough of you will need to raise the speaker to make it sound better, so we offer the risers".
Hmmmm...seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. Your argument is so flawed I don't even know what angle to refute it from. Using YOUR rational, as stated above, does not "the very notion" of speaker cable offered for sale through a speaker manufacturer imply an improvement? It must, otherwise there would be no reason to carry it...correct? Surely David's not going to tell me I will hear absolutely no difference whatsoever by using the expensive cables he sells - but is this what YOU are stating?
Thank you for putting words in our mouths, Curtis, but the truth is we do a pretty good job of this ourselves. Should you actually care to know the reason for the Risers, you would find out that these were created specifically at the request of several RS 750 owners for reasons not isolated specifically to sonic improvement. The most notable of these is stability. The 750 is a fairly narrow speaker with a somewhat small footprint. As a result, our customers with this speaker on a high-pile carpeting, or with dogs, children, high traffic areas, or other reasons for concern tend to need something with a slightly larger platform. Rather than create 2 accessories - like many companies have done ("outrigger" supports and stands) - we created the Risers to solve a couple issues simultaneously. We've never spoken, though you seem to know what I'm thinking before even myself. However, had you actually called me on this one, you would have learned that in many instances I will advise against the 750 Risers depending on the room environment. They are certainly not necessary for everyone, and are not "needed" to improve the 750 anymore than an Ascend customer MUST have wall mounts and speaker cable.
But I see your point - we should be punished for offering this, and any other accessory for that matter. You know, I wasn't going to buy the lens kit for the new digital camera I purchased, but I guess I have to now - if they're offering it, it must be the only way my camera works well!
Quote: SOCS - What is the claim that it will do? That for $1500, it will make a $1500/pr of speakers sound like a $40,000 pair? There is not even a set release date for this product, yet there are already reviews on how well it performs, and the reviews are not written by a third party. Who is the target audience?
I love this one. Where exactly did we say that it'll make a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40K speaker? I can't seem to find us stating this anywhere...oh yes, I forgot...YOU are speaking for us now. I'm going to cut this one short...please do me a favor, Curtis, and don't post on subjects you have no first hand knowledge on. SOCS is currently in beta test, and the reviews you have seen thus far are from these beta testers. Please give me your definition of third party, because I think we're getting crossed here.
Regards,
Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com
Steve,
You need to attribute who the quotes you use are from. People are going to think those are all from Curtis with his name at the top and not take the time to read all this junk to see they are mostly from Jake.
Azanon,
I don't regret intent. I just sometimes regret the execution of it if I failed to communicate - even if it's only to a few people while the majority of others "get it." I have a good friend that isn't that sophisticated in humor. It is easy to jerk their chain or to put one over their head and so ridicule them in front of others. There has been a few times I've regretted fast words there, and believe me I have no intent to harm.
I "Mr." Mr. Schifter sometimes as a weak inside joke. He is younger than I, and has told me on more than one occasion to call him by his first name. But in this venue, I also mean it to show he and Mr. Fabrikant the respect I feel they are due, to welcome their input on these forums. Neither would I come to your house and "diss" you in front of your children.
[:I] BTW, it's Mr. A M A R ****. mea culpa.[:I]
And I also have a massive amount of respect for those people like Mr. Bott and Mr. (?) Curtis [;)] who give of their time to try to bring a little order to this exercise in anarchy that is the internet.
I do get some insight from a large discount being offered on a sale.
Moore's Law is an interesting point. So are mass-production manufacturing methods. I also wonder about things like overhead, warehouse space, inventory taxes, as well as profit margins. In the actual discussion of that sale, I read some interesting things like comparison of the costs through the manufacturing plant vs. the cost delivered to Colorado.
Then there's our personal decisions as consumers. We have to consider sales tax, use tax, shipping costs, whether I'm destroying the local economy by not purchasing through a brick and mortar store. "Made in America," vs. where the profits are going (My Toyota Tacoma was manufactured in Fremont, California - I drive past it daily).
I just happen to find it a complicated matter - guess that's all. Keep yoru sense of humor, and enjoy the wit but consider the veracity of people like Jake.
enjoy!
They were in his post, so I attribute them to him. If I'm mistaken, I'll be the first to apologize.
Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com
So when this one gets locked can we just start another one right above it like we did the last one? :-)
just kidding...just kidding...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But in this venue, I also mean it to show he and Mr. Fabrikant the respect I feel they are due, to welcome their input on these forums. Neither would I come to your house and "diss" you in front of your children.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Fully agree with that. To my knowledge, Ascendforum.com isnt MLS's house even figuratively, though I'm well aware he's welcome here. I'll also continue to show DF respect here, as I have thusfar. But to clarily, disagreement does not equal disrespect, which is the extent of anything I've had with DF on these forums.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Ozmai
They were in his post, so I attribute them to him. If I'm mistaken, I'll be the first to apologize.
Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com
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Please link the post. Because most of these I only find in posts that Jake made.
I'll be honest with you here - I have no desire to read Jake's post and I'm not even going to bother to do so - I've wasted enough time with this guy and I know the type - these forums are a great way to boost your self esteem when reality just isn't cutting it. I did, however, read Curtis' posts as he is a moderator on this forum and participates quite frequently on the AV123 forum. His words ARE of importance to me and I read what he has to say - just as I'm sure he's reading this.
Again, if I misread his post, the one that contains the quotes I included, I am sorry and I have no argument. Let's clear this up...because I honestly don't have the time or the desire to go through and find hidden meanings. WHO is the one that is implying that our SOCS makes a $1500.00 speaker sound like a $40,000.00 speaker? WHO is stating that the Risers are "necessary" to make the 750's "sound better?" If it's not Curtis then I sincerely apologize - seriously - and it's my bad (I'll delete the post if so). If it IS Curtis, then my argument stands.
Sorry for any confusion.
Steve Ozmai
steve@av123.com