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azanon,
does your receiver have 5.1 analog inputs and apply bass management to them? Do you have six rca cables to hook up the player? It is an additional expense people overlook. Hooked up properly and with good bass management, DVD-A's and SACD definitely sound better than DD5.1 and DTS.
Anybody know what the difference is between the 536 and 578 besides 42?
-curtis
Curtis, do you mean 563? I just looked up the 578 at Crutchfield and the pictures of it are actually of the 563! The only thing that stuck out from the spec's was the video: 103mhz, 12 bit processing(I believe). Unless they changed the bass management as well, I could not see any other differences.
Ed
oops...yeah....563....so I guess the difference is 15.
Would be nice if they made the bass management better....I'd even settle for just a 80hz global crossover.
-curtis
Me too! You would think that would be easy enough to implement. I also noticed that the 578 does NOT do native DTS decoding, but incorporates WMP playback, though I have no idea what that is!
Ed
WMP I believe is Windows Media Player.
I would not mind if the players give up DTS or DD decoding since all of that stuff is handled at the pre/pro or receiver now.
-curtis
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">does your receiver have 5.1 analog inputs and apply bass management to them? Do you have six rca cables to hook up the player? It is an additional expense people overlook. Hooked up properly and with good bass management, DVD-A's and SACD definitely sound better than DD5.1 and DTS.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Oh yeah i forgot about that; the hookup being different. From the outset, it seems odd to me that SACD/DVD-A wouldn't just use the digital hookup. I do have 5.1 analog inputs, but (without pulling out my manual) seem i vaguely recalled SACDs/DVD-A players only took a stereo, type connection (red/white)?
I have just a cheap 200 dollar sony receiver, albeit this year's model, so the bass management will just be one "hardwired" choice. I'm assuming by "bass management" you mean the built-in crossover point? Sony uses a 100hz crossover in their base model receivers and I guess that's ok for my VTF-2, though its a tad on the high side. (though supposedly a VTF-2 can handle up to 100hz).
What Curtis is getting at, and I found out the hard way with my Outlaw 1050, is that most receivers of the budget variety do not apply ANALOG bass management to their 5.1 inputs. All SACD/DVD-A players send a decoded signal via 5.1 outputs requiring connection through the 5.1 inputs on the receiver. You must rely on the players ability to apply proper bass management BEFORE it gets to the receiver. The 563a I have does not do this the way I need it to. You should try to determine what the crossover points are for SACD vs. DVD-A. You may need to purchase an Outlaw ICBM-1 bass controller like I am in need of.
Ed
Ed is right.
On the 563a, the crossover points for DVD-A and SACD are VERY high....I forget the actually numbers. That is why I was wondering if they changed it with the new 578.
-curtis
Mag Neato, I "borrowed" this from a post at AVS, poster was "ovation"
"Almost any player that performs Bass Management internally does so "digitally". Analogue BM, applied after the D/A conversion in the player, is mainly desirable to avoid an additional layer of A/D/A, not because digital is inherently bad. Everyone wants their player to have a hi-res digital link to the receiver for bass management performance, which, for those cases where it is happening (Pioneer Elites, Denon, and a few others) is digital."
The 578 does digital bass management. Though i'm definitely no expert on this, this sounds like a picky audiophile issue that probably wont amount to much of an issue in the end listening experience.
I'll make sure and hook it up right, but i'm not crazy about needing more cables. Ok so a question about that; do i need "special" 5.1 cables or can i just use 6 red/white RCA cables i have right now? I dont see why not, but if there's a problem with that, let me know, ok?
Azanon
"On the 563a, the crossover points for DVD-A and SACD are VERY high"
Long as it isnt above 100hz, i can deal with it, and so can my VTF-2. Even if its slightly above that, i'll still get "some sound" going to the main speakers as crossovers arn't a "fine-line cutoff"
As an aside, i love great music and music quality, but i just dont love it enough to buy, say, denon stereo parts. I spent more than i normally would on my speakers (5.1 ascend,HSU) simply because, unlike audio receivers, dvds, etc, these can realistally be used for many years, perhaps 20 years or more if i really take care of them. However, with stereo components, there will always be the next best thing coming out every couple years (ie; dolby labs advancements), so i just cant afford to buy, say, 1K dollar receivers, and dvd players that cost too much.
yes.....it is above 100hz. It is something like 120hz for DVD-A and 200mhz for SACD...or the other way around. It is not listed in the manual.
I allow for the HK 525 and Sherwood Newcastle P-965 to handle the bass management. Yes, it is converted back to digital to do this, but it still sounds great to me.
No need for special cables, 6 RCA cables will do it.
-curtis
Well, it sounds great and the progressive scan picture is a much better improvement over just letting my HDTV do the 3:2 pulldown, 480p conversion.
The bass management on the pioneer 578 is similar to my receivers, in that it allows you to set the 5 main speakers to large or small. Having tried it both ways, its sounded notably better on small. The manual didnt mention was the crossover point was (with the speakers set to small), but the sound was very rich with plenty of smooth depth, and i wasnt perceiving any sound holes.
SACD/DVD-A is obviously a step up in quality; i was hearing wonderful directionality and fidelity that far transended what I was hearing on DPLII music mode.
Glad to hear the unit is giving you the desired results...always a good thing! The SACD/DVD-A sound SHOULD be better with speakers set to "Small", as this will route the low freq's to the sub where setting to large will not. My main point is with the 563's bass management. As Curtis said, SACD is 120hz and DVD-A is 200hz. My sub does not allow for bypassing the internal crossover. 120hz is okay, though not optimal, but my highest setting is 150hz which would leave a 50hz hole in the sound with DVD-A's. since the woofer in my sub is 12", I'd like to keep it below 100hz. I only have one SACD right now, Peter Gabriel's "Shaking the Tree", so I haven't tried DVD-A yet! As for progressive scan performance...only a dream for now as I am struggling to replace my 27" Panasonic that lost it's power supply, an I.C. and two cap's!
Ed
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My main point is with the 563's bass management.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I wonder if the 578's is the same. If any of you guys find out, let me know.
I just discovered something REALLY cool about the 563a!! I had "The Mummy Returns" out from the library and stopped it in the middle of the fight with the the "Pygmes", for lack of a better term. My wife took it out of the player to return it for me. She renewed it instead. I'm expecting to have to scene index to find where I had left off....but no, I put the disc in and got a "last memory" in the display. I hit play and it starts exactly where I left off....COOL!!!! My old player would have lost it's place once the disc was removed.
Ed
Oh yeah....most players do that nowadays. Great feature!
-curtis
Not a bad movie either! I picked up a used tv over the weekend as my finances would not permit fixing the 27" Panny at this time. I found a 20" JVC with all the inputs I need(including component)with Hyper-surround,black level expansion, 3line digital comb and it even has a Theater-pro K6500 video setting!! With my "trade" it was $75 out the door....not bad, huh?
Ed
Just found this at AVS:
"The DV-578A-S is ONLY available in silver and the cross-over point for SACD is set at 80Hz (no bass management is available on SACD in accordance with the "red book" specifications) and for DVD-Audio, it can be set to either 80 Hz (large front speakers) or 120Hz (small front speakers).
Regards,
Roger R. Archambault
Senior Product Specialist
Pioneer Electronics of Canada, Inc.
300 Allstate Parkway
Markham, ON
L3R 0P2
Customer Satisfaction
Pioneer Electronics of Canada
300 Allstate Parkway
Markham Ontario L3R 0P2
Toll free: 1 (877) 283 5901
Fax: 1 (877) 746 4848"
Hmm, guess i need to set it to large then since ascends can do 80hz np and since 120hz is too high for a VTF-2. Guess i'll also get DVD-A's, given a choice :-).
Son of a...I quess they addressed the bass management issues. Hmmm, I wonder how liberal Circuit City's return policy is!!
Ed
Read the rest of that thread.....
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...0&pagenumber=3
-curtis
I called Pioneer. The firmware update for the 563a is available locally(for me). I called the service center and was told it is free for units under warranty. I asked about the bass management settings and if the upgrade corrected this. They said it should fix any problems which are related to this unit....I'm very skeptical! I haven't really tried any of the reported DVD-A titles that were not playing correctly. Heck, I have not tried ANY DVD-A's at all! I just want the bass management to work properly so I don't have to buy an I.C.B.M. from Outlaw. If the upgrade addresses this, I'll take the player in next week, but I don't trust that the tech on the phone really knew if it did.
OY-VEY!!!
Ed
Well....the bass management issue is not "improper"...so I doubt it is "fixed".
Did they say how long it takes for them to update the firmware? No way to do it yourself?
-curtis
Yeah, I don't think the bass settings would change either. I did not ask how long it takes, but only authorized service centers can perform the update. They must have a disc they insert to "re-program" the unit which is not available to the consumer. Have you encountered any DVD-A discs which would not play? Some of the titles mentioned were from Steely Dan, Neil young and several others using a newer authoring format.
Ed
Nope, I have not had a problem yet. (knock-wood)
-curtis
"Read the rest of that thread....."
The only thing i saw was 2 opinions from individuals that dont work for Pioneer, thus dont override what they said. I seriously doubt he pulled that specific guidance out of his ass.
True, but according to what Pioneer rep wrote, there is no way to turn bass management off...and that would be a first....and just wrong.
-curtis
Ouch!! I've read that the video performance has been improved, but nothing regarding bass management from any tests. I've noticed that it takes much longer to cue up discs than my Panasonic A310 took. I also miss the "bouncing ball" screen saver of the Panasonic. The Pioneer did play two DVDs from the library with no problem. I'm sure at least one of them would have made the Panny freeze up. So I guess I really can't complain.
Ed
"True, but according to what Pioneer rep wrote, there is no way to turn bass management off...and that would be a first....and just wrong."
Where did he say you could turn off bass management? (rhetorical, he didnt). He said there is no bass management for SACD, but by that he simply meant that there's only one hardwired selection, a crossover at 80hz, and toggling the large/small option will not alter this. Yes, technically speaking, having even just one crossover point is having bass management, but this is just a semantics issue.
Sounds like the 578 crosses over exactly where us ascend owners want it too.
The only problem i've noted so far which may be with the 578, is i cant get it to play my faith hill DVD-A correctly. What it does is when it gets finished playing any track, as soon as the next track starts, it sounds like garble. However, if i hit the back arrow (which starts that track at the beginning), it plays fine until it gets to the next song.
It doesnt do this on the two SACD's i have. I guess i'll have to pick up a second DVD-A and see if its just that faith hill DVD-A, or all DVD-A's that its doing that on.
Azanon
Azanon,
You have the unit....for DVD-A, is there a way to turn off bass management, or just set the speakers to large or small? According to the Pioneer rep, setting it to large puts the crossover at 80hz, small at 120hz. And what are the possible settings for SACD? From reading the Pioneer rep's statement, it seems that the setup for SACD and DVD-A is different...can you confirm that?
-curtis
>There are no separate bass management settings for DVD-A and SACD. The "bass management" section for the player is in a category of its own and thus (assumed) to apply to all analog 5.1 music. Its just called speaker settings, or something to that effect.
>The only separate DVD-A and SACD settings on the player are where you tell it whether to output the sound in analog 5.1 or via the inferior analog L/R output mode (forgot what that's called).
>There is no way to "turn off bass management", unless by that you mean can you disable the sub. If that's what you mean, yes, you can select "no" on the subwoofer, and naturally all low frequencies will be outputted to the respective speakers. Of course the .1 bass would be lost and not outputted.
>But yeah, going by what that rep said, apparently the large/small settings only apply to DVD-A.
So it appears that what you see on the player does not reflect the Pioneer rep's information. Correct?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But yeah, going by what that rep said, apparently the large/small settings only apply to DVD-A<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The rep said you can turn off bass management for SACD. How is that accomplished? "no bass management is available on SACD in accordance with the "red book" specifications"
By turning bass management off, I mean is there a way to run the speakers full range with .1 output? SACD's and DVD-A's specifically have .1 output in the mix.
-curtis
It's probably a standard setup....choose "Large" and the bass is routed to the mains, no sub. Choose "Small" and the set crossover point directs bass below the x-over to the sub. The big question is what is the true x-over for SACD vs. DVD-A?
Ed
I think you are right Ed.
It is just that the Pioneer rep said when set to large, the DVD-A crossover is 80hz.....which doe not seem right.
-curtis
the .1 is going to be there whether you set to large or small in speaker setup. large vs small bass management doesnt alter the LFE channel.
Going by my own ear, it sounds like when I have the 578 on large, all the bass intended for the 5 speakers is sent to the mains. With it set to small, its sounds full and rich again (the sub is obviously doing something). So my guess is yes, the rep is wrong, and "large" means what it does everywhere else; the full range of sound is sent to the mains. The "small" setting is clearly superior.
As for where the crossover is, i dunno, but i can tell you the DVD-A is notably better than the dolby digital version of the same track. The SACD's are also stunning.
Glad you are enjoying it!!
-curtis
Well, I actually had a chance to "listen" to my system over the weekend, and was very pleased. I played my one and only SACD, Peter Gabriel's Shaking the Tree(thr title track is really interesting and full of big drums!)along with some Rippingtons. The SACD resolution is definitely nice, but the crossover point through the 563a being at 120hz leaves the bass a lot looser than I'd like, bordering on tubby. In contrast, the regular CD through the digital connection allowed the Outlaw's bass management to work, and actually gave a tighter sound which I preffered. I could compare the Peter Gabriel SACD to my copy of "So" using the same cuts duplicated on both, and like the hi-rez stuff sans-the-bass! Kate Bush never sounded so good!!
Ed
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The SACD resolution is definitely nice, but the crossover point through the 563a being at 120hz leaves the bass a lot looser than I'd like, bordering on tubby<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I sure am glad they adjust the crossover on SACD to 80hz on the 578 then!