Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
Very welcome Shaz. I wish more people would take the approach you did and simply ask the manufacturer / engineer rather than attempting to draw conclusions from measurements.
Believe me that particular web site would be getting a letter from a lawyer especially when you stated you couldn't duplicate their measurements. That's making false claims and they have cost you business with their BS reviews. I would go for the throat. This isn't the nice guy business here.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Believe me that particular web site would be getting a letter from a lawyer especially when you stated you couldn't duplicate their measurements. That's making false claims and they have cost you business with their BS reviews. I would go for the throat. This isn't the nice guy business here.
This is comical.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shazb0t
This is comical.
Definitely NOT comical and I ask that you please respect the opinion of others. I have seen even highly revered and decades old review sites / magazines get sued over reviews.
Let me just say this, Amir has angered a LOT of manufacturers. His company sells Harman gear, he has been advised and trained by Harman employees, he receives speakers direct from Harman for review (we call these golden samples) yet for other companies - he mostly gets them from customers sending them in. He doesn't have the background or knowledge to know if that particular speaker from said customer has been modified, or is performing properly - he simply publishes the results without having ANY contact with the manufacturer.
That is typically not how things are done.
We have had our products reviewed and measured, in every case - we have been contacted in advance of any publishing to review it. Not to change any subjective comments, but to check it factually and in the case of measurements, to see if they make sense. In fact, every professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a product for a company I have been associated with has proceeded in the same manner - contacting the manufacturer for a fact check prior to publication.
Even when we had a few of our products measured at the NRC, and this was by a team of professionals who have been doing this for more than a decade, the measurements were all reviewed in advance of publication.
In the next few days, I will document to you why this is so important.
That stated, I have had correspondences with Amir and while I do not agree with the way he is doing things, I do respect what he is attempting to do and should he get sued and his site shut down (yes, it can happen and at this point it wouldn't surprise me) - it won't be from us.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
Definitely NOT comical and I ask that you please respect the opinion of others. I have seen even highly revered and decades old review sites / magazines get sued over reviews.
Let me just say this, Amir has angered a LOT of manufacturers. His company sells Harman gear, he has been advised and trained by Harman employees, he receives speakers direct from Harman for review (we call these golden samples) yet for other companies - he mostly gets them from customers sending them in. He doesn't have the background or knowledge to know if that particular speaker from said customer has been modified, or is performing properly - he simply publishes the results without having ANY contact with the manufacturer.
That is typically not how things are done.
We have had our products reviewed and measured, in every case - we have been contacted in advance of any publishing to review it. Not to change any subjective comments, but to check it factually and in the case of measurements, to see if they make sense. In fact, every professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a product for a company I have been associated with has proceeded in the same manner - contacting the manufacturer for a fact check prior to publication.
Even when we had a few of our products measured at the NRC, and this was by a team of professionals who have been doing this for more than a decade, the measurements were all reviewed in advance of publication.
In the next few days, I will document to you why this is so important.
That stated, I have had correspondences with Amir and while I do not agree with the way he is doing things, I do respect what he is attempting to do and should he get sued and his site shut down (yes, it can happen and at this point it wouldn't surprise me) - it won't be from us.
Everyone has an opinion. Calling something what I believe it is isn't intentionally disrespecting others. But since you seem to think what I said isn't grounded in reality I'll expand on it some more.
Most of the basic facts of your proposed argument aren't true. What would you or a similar manufacturer actually sue him for? The way he operates made us mad isn't grounds for a lawsuit. As far as I'm aware, you yourself aren't actually disputing the measured performance of the speakers. You have an entire 4 part (for now) post series documenting how you've found what you thought to be incorrect measurements to actually be accurate. At least as accurately measured by the Klippel system. Maybe manufacturers really need to sue Klippel?
Even if the measurements were wrong you'd have to prove that Amir had malicious intent, that he was purposefully posting fake measurements in order to hurt your and others companies or profit from it himself. And on top of that, that it's materially affected your business. This is going to be very difficult to do. He has freedom of speech. He's not acting as a company. He's not acting as a professional, he is a hobbyist. He doesn't get speakers from Harman. He doesn't work for a competitor in your field. He has disclaimers acknowledging his audio install business and potential bias in each review. He's not getting paid to do the reviews. He receives no ad revenue on his site or from YouTube. He has no sponsors. He has no obligation to contact you for "corrections". He uses an automated third party instrument to perform the measurements that was specifically designed by a respected company in the audio field to accurately measure loudspeakers. There is a large pool of audio science and mathematics behind the design and use of said product that you would also have to contest.
You or anyone else who pursues this would have a real uphill battle here. There is basically a zero chance that you would be able to win a lawsuit against an independent hobbyist speaker reviewer who operates like Amir (not for profit). That's just the truth. Let's be really clear on this, I think it's safe to say that it isn't an accident that Amir has setup his operation this way. He obviously understood that someone suing him for slander or libel was a possibility when he got into objective measurements of loudspeakers, some of which are made by very large companies with fully staffed legal teams. He's clearly intentionally insulated himself from these kind of legal openings which would have allowed those teams to pursue that type of litigation. Suing a professional reviewer or publication for slander or libel is a slippery slope and bad PR in most scenarios already, but in this case, it clearly has even tougher hurdles to clear. That's why I called the suggestion comical. Should my opinion also be respected? Are all opinions equally valid? When am I allowed to call out a silly suggestion as such?
I don't even want to argue with you about something like this. I'm an Ascend owner and I think you make great products! I also think it's fair to not always agree in an echo chamber. It's easy to bash ASR here and say Amir is a jerk who doesn't know what he's doing. It's all a conspiracy against Ascend! He's a Harman plant! Klippel is a bunch of hokey math for nerds! Amir should be in jail! The government should shut down ASR! The problem is that these things aren't fair. Sometimes you have to speak up when you see unfair statements. Could that result in my being kicked off this forum? Maybe. Is one of the points of participating in this forum a willingness to encourage others to bash anything or anyone that gives a "negative" review to an Ascend product, despite the facts? I hope not.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Funny how ASR did a complete 180 on his review of the Denon AVRX3700H after Denon called him because of his initial negative review of it. Very suspicious. Actually, very comical. I would have loved to have heard that phone call. That "science" changed real quick.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Shazb0t, I don't know you, but I do read some of your posts.
Perhaps I have missed it, but is there anything that ASR has posted that you disagree with? Maybe a review of something you have heard/demo'd. Maybe a methodology? Or any post? Did you speak up?
Also, perhaps I also missed it as well, but is there any transparency as to who you are besides an Ascend owner? Maybe you have had that communication with Dave. It seems you started posting here when ASR reviewed an Ascend speaker.
As you pointed out, Amir seems to work on his own. He does have a business. People can take that for what it is worth to them.
Amir doesn't post listening impressions(blind or otherwise) before he measures anything. He doesn't have others post impressions before he measures. I think this type of stuff to backup his science would be valuable.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
Shazb0t, I don't know you, but I do read some of your posts.
Perhaps I have missed it, but is there anything that ASR has posted that you disagree with. Maybe a review of something you have heard/demo'd. Maybe a methodology? Or any post? Did you speak up?
Also, perhaps I also missed it as well, but is there any transparency as to who you are besides an Ascend owner? Maybe you have had that communication with Dave. It seems you started posting here when ASR reviewed an Ascend speaker.
As you pointed out, Amir seems to work on his own. He does have a business. People can take that for what it is worth to them.
He doesn't post listening impressions(blind or otherwise) before he measures anything. He doesn't have others post impressions before he measures. I think this type of stuff to backup his science would be valuable.
I'm not anyone special. I don't think that should matter though. The point of online forums is for discussion amongst all sorts of people is it not? I think the posts I've made stand on their own and don't rely on some sort of implied appeal to authority. I don't have any vested or financial interest in any of this if that's what you're suggesting. I'm just a hobbyist.
I don't agree with all of Amir's methodology and I've made posts here and at ASR regarding my thoughts. I too believe Amir should perform his listening tests prior to taking measurements and have said as much before. He's not immune to bias. I find it a little off-putting when he discusses the fact that we all have bias but defends his measuring before listening protocol by claiming his Harman listening training has given him the ability to push through his own. I also don't think harmonic distortion is as big of an issue as it's made over there. I've said as much in threads for speakers I've owned/listened to (including the Horizon and Uni-Fi threads at ASR). I've posted here before ASR measured any Ascend speakers because I owned mine before those reviews. I think if you looked at my post history on ASR as it pertains to Ascend you'd probabaly refer to me as an Ascend fanboi. I guess it all boils down to perspective huh?
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shazb0t
I find it a little off-putting when he discusses the fact that we all have bias but defends his measuring before listening protocol by claiming his Harman listening training has given him the ability to push through his own.
If that is what he says, that's more than off-putting. That shows he is very biased or does not have much confidence in his "training". How can you defend someone that doesn't practice what he preaches?
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
If that is what he says, that's more than off-putting. That shows he is very biased or does not have much confidence in his "training". How can you defend someone that doesn't practice what he preaches?
Personally, I don't put much faith in anyone's subjective evaluations if they aren't grounded by something demonstrable, like objective data. I think that no matter who is performing the review some of the information may be valuable while other parts may not. That's why I enjoy picking through the data/measurements and trying my best to understand the science behind what we are observing. In cases like this I take the good with the bad.
Re: Sierra Towers (RAAL) vs Sierra 2 EX's as front L/R
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shazb0t
I've posted here before ASR measured any Ascend speakers because I owned mine before those reviews. I think if you looked at my post history on ASR as it pertains to Ascend you'd probabaly refer to me as an Ascend fanboi. I guess it all boils down to perspective huh?
I am very new here in this forum and just getting ready to own some Ascend speakers, but out of my curiosity, what were your deciding factors to purchase and own Ascend speakers without ASR measurement data? Meanwhile, any reason(s) why you didn't go with other speakers ASR has already reviewed and recommend?
TIA