Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asliang
AMTs, like ribbons will have very wide horizontal dispersion so the sound will be much more spacious.
Actually, that is not true at all. Most AMT's have more limited horizontal dispersion compared to a dome, and the response also becomes very ragged / uneven. Dispersion width is fully determined by the width of the radiating area of the transducer. The smaller the width, the wider the dispersion and vice versa. Most AMT's you will see are quite wide, many even wider than 1" domes, in which case horizontal dispersion would be even less than the 1" dome.
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
Actually, that is not true at all. Most AMT's have more limited horizontal dispersion compared to a dome, and the response also becomes very ragged / uneven. Dispersion width is fully determined by the width of the radiating area of the transducer. The smaller the width, the wider the dispersion and vice versa. Most AMT's you will see are quite wide, many even wider than 1" domes, in which case horizontal dispersion would be even less than the 1" dome.
True not all are super wide. The Martin Logans are only somewhat wider than the Sierra-1 tweeter with about half the roll off past 5k, whereas the Emotiva AMT's very wide and are flat to ~9k at almost 90 degrees horizontal.
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asliang
whereas the Emotiva AMT's very wide and are flat to ~9k at almost 90 degrees horizontal.
Not even close, where did you see these measurements?
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
So, I've been through all four possible iterations of the Sierra bookshelves. I first bought S1s in like 2010, shortly thereafter upgraded them to S1 NrTs, then not that long ago upgraded those to S2s, which of course caused Dave to almost immediately release the S2-EXs, and I went ahead and did that upgrade, too. I guess I'm a serial upgrader.
The S1 is a terrific speaker in its price range, but it does have its limitations. As is not uncommon in fabric domes, there's a little lack of sizzle in the top end. Bass extension is very good for a bookshelf speaker with a 5.25" driver, but there's only so much you can do there. Still, an engineering marvel, particularly for the price. Maybe a smidge on the laid-back side.
The S1 NrT is the solution to the S1's lack of sizzle. Amazingly crisp highs for a fabric dome, with the added benefit of some additional clarity in the upper mids. The resultant speaker is also more forward than the stock S1. Because of that, the S1 to NrT upgrade is maybe not for everyone. It was right for me, but I wouldn't universally recommend it universally unless what you specifically want is that top-end sizzle.
The S2 is a pretty different animal than either of the S1s. A detail-recovery monster with tremendous wide soundstage and superior imaging. Brilliant treble. Splits the not-all-that-big difference between the S1 and the NrT in terms of laid back vs. forward, just a terrifically neutral speaker. Bass clarity improved vs. S1 models at the cost of a smidge of bass extension. A hard speaker to fault... until you meet its sibling.
The S2-EX is another engineering marvel, absolutely worth the relatively minor price difference over the S2. Frankly, IMO nobody should buy an S2 or upgrade to an S2, just go straight for the S2-EX. It's not that there's anything wrong with the S2, it's just that the EX is just straight-up better everywhere that the two are different. No change in character vs the S2, no loss of those gorgeous highs, but more bass extension than not only the stock S2, but over the S1. Even better bass clarity, too. Frankly, the bass on these is kind of brain-melting for a bookshelf speaker. They really do go sub-40Hz; they sound like towers. I was hoping to get rid of the subwoofer in my setup and they let me do it. (And I'm a bass player, so my standard in that range is not trivial to meet.) As a bonus, better midrange clarity, too, but not as dramatic as the difference in bass performance. It's the S2 just turned up to 11. Even looks better with the grilles off. That this speaker can be purchased for well south of $2K is slightly crazy. Dave is basically giving them away. (Now, from what I've read the Burchardt S400 gives the S2-EX a run for the money on the quality front, so maybe that's why Dave keeps the EX price where it is so he can undercut the Burchardt. I don't know, I've not actually heard the S400s, but they do measure well.)
So, while the S1 is a terrific speaker (especially for the price), the S2-EX is pretty much better than the S1 at everything. Highs that are both crisper, smoother, and more detailed? Yes. More full-bodied and clearer mids? Yes. Better definition and extension on the bass? In spades. If you think the S1 is close to where you want to be on bass performance, just wait until you hear the EXs. Night and day. It's more than a grand to upgrade a pair, so it's not cheap to do this, but there is a reason for the expense.
Oh, and you're right, your definition of "warm" is not typical. "Warm" usually means a frequency response bump in the lower mids/upper bass range. As far as I'm concerned, terms like warm/bright/dark/V-shaped are references to flaws; places where the frequency response of the speaker is not flat. So asking for added warmth to a neutral speaker just makes my head hurt. But I get what you mean.
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Thank you for that reply, that's basically exactly what I was hoping to read. Would you say the S-2EX has more bass impact than the S1, at a given volume? I'm trying to sound smart here - what I'm really interested in is a bit more "thump" to the bass, where appropriate. I don't want my string bass plucks to suddenly start bumping the floor, but I would be interested in kick drum and synthesized beats sounding fuller and hitting harder than what the S1 can muster, specifically at what most people would probably call "lower" listening levels. If the watt-meters on my amp are to be believed, I spend a lot of time sitting between .001 and .01 watts with the S1 in terms of power usage. Somebody smart than I can probably translate that to decibels :)
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Yes, the EX has better bass impact at lower volumes than the S1. However, don't expect it completely solve your issue.
Part of the problem is probably just simple psychophysics. As the overall volume level decreases, the human ear loses the highs and the lows before the mids (the Fletcher-Munson curve). This effect is even more pronounced for low frequencies than high frequencies, and the lower the frequency, the worse this is. Since it looks like you listen at really low levels (nothing wrong with that, yay for keeping your hearing), this will tend to suck out the highs and especially the lows, regardless of what speaker you're listening to.
A lot of amps used to have a "loudness" button, which essentially applied V-shaped EQ so that when you turned it down, the perception of the response was more even. These sounded so bad when you turned it up, though, that lots of people stayed away. Fundamentally, this is because people didn't really understand what that button was for. Also, some systems had really poor implementations, so that didn't help, either. Some brands of speakers—I won't name names *cough*B&W*cough*—intentionally build in a V-shaped response, which I still think is an attempt to game it so their speakers sound better when not played loud. The problem is that they sound... less than ideal, let's say, when played at higher volumes.
Anyway, it sounds like you spend a lot of time listening at pretty low levels, so it's not surprising the bass isn't as present as you want it to be--try turning up the bass a little on your tone control when you have your amp turned down really low. Even with your S1s, this should help.
Re: Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arrogantyeti
If the watt-meters on my amp are to be believed, I spend a lot of time sitting between .001 and .01 watts with the S1 in terms of power usage. Somebody smart than I can probably translate that to decibels :)
Each 10x increase in power is 10 dB. So between running at .01 watts or .001 watts vs. someone who runs there system at 1 watt average, you are down 20-30 dB in volume. Our ears work in a logarithmic manner so we easily hear music which is 20-30 dB quieter, but the problem is the ability to feel a beat in our chest is not logarithmic. 100-1000x less power than "chest thumping bass power" just doesn't have impact we can feel.
