F12 vs L12?

Per thread title, I'm trying to understand the difference(s) between the F12 and the L12 especially any audible difference.

I have a 5.1 system with Sierra 1's, large room (5400 cu ft) that is relatively "live," mostly HT use but with some non-audiophile music listening. I had decided on an SVS 13 but the SVS rep convinced me that in my room two smaller subs such as the SB2000s would be preferable. I've been impressed with my Sierra 1's and thus decided to compare the SVS option to Rythmik.

I would appreciate any comments re the F12 and L12 and how they compare to the SB2000s.

These are all high-quality subs and it's hard to go wrong here. Rythmik, SVS, and Hsu are generally considered the class leaders in price/performance in this range. There are certainly differences here but they aren't huge, and all three of these are good options.

Relative to the L12, the F12 will play lower and louder, and is more tweakable. A lot of the differences between subs from the same manufacturer are primarily in their ability to play lower and louder, hence the price difference.

Relative to the SVS, the Rythmiks will play lower (particularly the F12), but the SVS will play louder. The servo system in the Rythmiks generally result in a tighter, more defined sound. This is sometimes mistaken for having less impact; in reality, it's just a less boomy sound. Some people prefer the somewhat more boomy sound, so YMMV. Also, the Rythmiks have a steeper crossover available, which may make integration easier but again, this may not make much of a difference in your setup.

I hesitate to comment, for two reasons. First, SunByrne has largely answered your question. Second, because my comment will address something other than the question you asked, and generally I try not to do that.

I'm just concerned that you match the sub(s) to the job they are to do. In this case, I'm concerned that the F12, as fine a sub as it is, will be swamped by the size of the room, and also that it won't give you the bottom end most people want from HT.

You might want to consider a pair of servo ported subs, such as the Rythmik FVX15 or even the FV15HP. The ported subs can dig deeper, play louder, and because they are servo subs, can do so with considerably less distortion (both easier to integrate with your mains, less boomy, and they can do a surprisingly effect imitation of a sealed sub for music). I suggest a pair because it makes it much easier to tame room modes and therefore make a bigger "sweet spot" for listing to either HT or music.

But again, what makes this work is the servo mechanism. With SVS or HSU, I think you have to choose between music (sealed) and HT (ported). With Rythmik you can use ported for both. At least, I use ported for both (pair of LVX12s in a 2500 cu ft sealed room). The sound I get is as if my Sierra 2s just suddenly went flat down to 20Hz. Excellent for music. Excellent for HT.

That said, a single F12 in a 5400 cu ft room will sound fine as long as you don't try to play too loud. What happens when a sub runs out of steam is called "compression" which is the sub version of clipping. And I'm thinking in a 5400 cu ft room, that could happen at fairly low volume levels. IDK exactly where but you can chart it out in your room with REW or an equivalent software package.

Anyway, I'm answering a question you didn't even ask, and probably muddling your thinking in the process. I apologize.

I was going to post a couple of days ago, but didn't have the time. Bruce has said everything that I was thinking of saying. I'll just add one thing.

I know firsthand what it is like to take a subwoofer about the size that Bruce has in a small room like his into a much larger room. It is kind of strange because the bass is still there and yet much of the feeling that you get in the bass region disappears. For me HT is the priority and this is unacceptable. Music might be different for some, where this is much less of an issue. If that is the case and you don't listen at higher volume levels, then maybe these smaller sealed subs are okay. But, if it were me I would want the larger ported models, as Bruce mentioned to be a better fit for the room size.

Well, shoot my reply got deleted (?).

Thanks for the info! "Flat to 20hz" is a good description of what I would like, along with the ability to "keep up" with movie soundtracks. Question then becomes, how to do this? I was thinking that 2 12" subs, sealed, would be ideal but it sounds like maybe not.

I might be able to make 2 15" ported work, but size and weight may be problematic. Is 2 ported 15s essentially the consensus of "ideal" for my setting?

Thanks again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tm3

I have a 5.1 system with Sierra 1's, large room (5400 cu ft) that is relatively "live," mostly HT use but with some non-audiophile music listening.

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Is your large room sealed or just the room dimensions and it is open to several other rooms?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tm3

Thanks for the info! "Flat to 20hz" is a good description of what I would like, along with the ability to "keep up" with movie soundtracks.

I might be able to make 2 15" ported work, but size and weight may be problematic. Is 2 ported 15s essentially the consensus of "ideal" for my setting?

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Yes, you need at least 2 ported 15s for this room if the ability to handle movies is important to you. To determine if the ported 15s are enough and you don't need even larger subs depends on the answer to the first question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N Boros

Is your large room sealed or just the room dimensions and it is open to several other rooms?



Yes, you need at least 2 ported 15s for this room if the ability to handle movies is important to you. To determine if the ported 15s are enough and you don't need even larger subs depends on the answer to the first question.

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If I understand sealed, yes, it is as it has closable doors. It is relatively "live" ie hardwood floors and area rugs.

I read somewhere that subs can be positioned in diagonally opposite corners, one behind the source and one behind the listening position. True? If so I *might* be able to get away with large subs wrt WAF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tm3

If I understand sealed, yes, it is as it has closable doors. It is relatively "live" ie hardwood floors and area rugs.

I read somewhere that subs can be positioned in diagonally opposite corners, one behind the source and one behind the listening position. True? If so I *might* be able to get away with large subs wrt WAF.

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Yes, if you can close off all doors and openings to the space, then it is sealed. So, in that case some ported 15 inch subs should do well in that room.

With two subwoofers in a sealed rectangular shaped room, the best position would be midpoints of opposing walls. Diagonally opposite corners is also good, but not quite as good for minimizing the variation in bass as you move from one seat to another. If you have a receiver with the highest level of Audyssey, then it can play around with the phase, which acts like moving them around the room without actually moving them. This too can help if you can't get the optimal positions in the room.

If you room is not a rectangular shape, then it is very difficult to predict what the best placement of the two subs should be in the room. It would be either trial and error or the Audyssey method mentioned above.