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Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Dave,
This kit sounds peaks my interest, but thinking ahead the possibility also raises a few concerns.
1. How important is the fact that: 'Left / right pairs are matched by hand to within ± 1dB'? Obviously installing the upgrade kit in the Sierra 2 will eliminate the matched pair speakers.
2. I have been amazed by the detail and wide dispersion of the Sierra 2 that results in a soundstage that is both higher and wider than anything I've experienced previously. My only minor grip is that, at times, the Sierra 2 can sound a little thin in the lower midrange. Your description of the EX sounds like it might address this which is great, but I hope not at the expense of what I enjoy about the original Sierra 2.
3. After the upgrade I will have a pair of great Seas woofers and cross-overs just wasting away. Knowing me, I will either build a box or buy a knock-down flat pack kit of similar dimensions and configuration to the Sierra 2 and build another set of speakers. The only problem is I will need tweeters. Can you provide the specifications of the original cross-over to assist in finding an appropriate tweeter. Any recommendations other than your Raal, which is too expensive for my level of speaker building craftsmanship? Also, anything too expensive and it would just make sense to just buy a set of EXs instead of upgrading.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
1. I'd imagine that the components will be matched regardless of whether you get them as an upgrade vs
complete speakers.
2. From reports I've "heard" they should still have the same qualities we love, but fuller mids as well.
3. The crossover for the Sierra-2's was specifically designed to integrate the RAAL with the SEAS Curv
Woofer and I'd suspect it would not work with anything else. Dave has traditionally taken the swapped
components back as he'd rather have them vs someone reselling them and having them "out there".
Each of us must weigh what makes sense regarding upgrading existing speakers vs selling existing speakers & buying new vs just buying new.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitey019
Dave,
This kit sounds peaks my interest, but thinking ahead the possibility also raises a few concerns.
1. How important is the fact that: 'Left / right pairs are matched by hand to within ± 1dB'? Obviously installing the upgrade kit in the Sierra 2 will eliminate the matched pair speakers.
2. I have been amazed by the detail and wide dispersion of the Sierra 2 that results in a soundstage that is both higher and wider than anything I've experienced previously. My only minor grip is that, at times, the Sierra 2 can sound a little thin in the lower midrange. Your description of the EX sounds like it might address this which is great, but I hope not at the expense of what I enjoy about the original Sierra 2.
3. After the upgrade I will have a pair of great Seas woofers and cross-overs just wasting away. Knowing me, I will either build a box or buy a knock-down flat pack kit of similar dimensions and configuration to the Sierra 2 and build another set of speakers. The only problem is I will need tweeters. Can you provide the specifications of the original cross-over to assist in finding an appropriate tweeter. Any recommendations other than your Raal, which is too expensive for my level of speaker building craftsmanship? Also, anything too expensive and it would just make sense to just buy a set of EXs instead of upgrading.
All good questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitey019
1. How important is the fact that: 'Left / right pairs are matched by hand to within ± 1dB'? Obviously installing the upgrade kit in the Sierra 2 will eliminate the matched pair speakers.
For upgrade parts, all components are electrically tested against our reference standard. We hold the individual component to a very tight tolerance against the standard (effectively equivalent to +/- 1dB). However, due to tolerances, it is possible that one component can be in the +1 range while another also in the +1 range. This means that when assembled, worst case is that the overall result would be +/- 2dB. Fyi, typical industry standard for high performance speakers is +/- 3dB. So, while we can not guarantee a +/- 1dB match for speakers that have been upgraded with kits, the matching is still very close and even in worst case, likely to be completely inaudible. Hope I worded this so it makes sense, been too many sleepless nights this past week ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitey019
2. I have been amazed by the detail and wide dispersion of the Sierra 2 that results in a soundstage that is both higher and wider than anything I've experienced previously. My only minor grip is that, at times, the Sierra 2 can sound a little thin in the lower midrange. Your description of the EX sounds like it might address this which is great, but I hope not at the expense of what I enjoy about the original Sierra 2.
What you mention in the lower mids exactly what the Sierra-2EX addresses (as well as many other across the board improvements). I have not been able to detect any audible differences in dispersion, and on paper - technically the S2-EX is better. I do not suspect you would notice any differences in dispersion / imaging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whitey019
After the upgrade I will have a pair of great Seas woofers and cross-overs just wasting away. Knowing me, I will either build a box or buy a knock-down flat pack kit of similar dimensions and configuration to the Sierra 2 and build another set of speakers. The only problem is I will need tweeters. Can you provide the specifications of the original cross-over to assist in finding an appropriate tweeter. Any recommendations other than your Raal, which is too expensive for my level of speaker building craftsmanship? Also, anything too expensive and it would just make sense to just buy a set of EXs instead of upgrading.
Crossovers are complex circuits. I am not quite sure how someone defines specs of a crossover so that a different tweeter can be used. Crossovers are designed for a specific woofer and tweeter, never the other way around. Even if I published the electrical curves of the high pass and low pass circuits on the S2 crossover, I am not even sure how one would go about looking at tweeter specifications to see if that tweeter would "work"... Reason being is that every different tweeter model out there is going to have a different impedance profile, and the filter slopes of a crossover directly correlate to these impedances. Any difference in impedance from one tweeter model to another will have a dramatic effect on the filter slopes, thus having a major effect on the blend between woofer and tweeter. Add to that frequency response corrections and level matching (all of which the S2 crossover, or really any properly designed crossover should do) -- and it makes the job of finding a tweeter that will work as a replacement for the original tweeter pretty much impossible, and likely not even a possibility.
If there is enough interest, I suppose I could design a new crossover for that S2 woofer to be used with our Sierra-1 tweeter. That could be one solution to the spare parts, but either way - that S2 crossover is effectively useless without the original components it was designed to be used with.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Well, I am pretty certain I will be buying a kit for my new domestic cabinet Sierra 2’s. But I do not think I would have the heart to simply toss the Sierra 2 woofers into the trash so count me in on an interested party to send them back for such an Ascend special project.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Dave, would it be possible for those who will have no use for the original S2 woofers to return them to Ascend with free return shipping? Otherwise they would end up either tossed in the trash, sitting on a shelf/in a box/etc., or showing up on the used market. Don't know if there's any value in it for you, but would be a nice option to have available.
I am hoping to be a EX up-grader at some point and will have no use for the old woofers, though I'm a ways out from being able to get the kits.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
Dave, would it be possible for those who will have no use for the original S2 woofers to return them to Ascend with free return shipping? Otherwise they would end up either tossed in the trash, sitting on a shelf/in a box/etc., or showing up on the used market. Don't know if there's any value in it for you, but would be a nice option to have available.
I am hoping to be a EX up-grader at some point and will have no use for the old woofers, though I'm a ways out from being able to get the kits.
This is an interesting idea and I would hate for these parts to simply get tossed. Send me an email when you are ready and we can work something out.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Dave, could 2EX Upgrade Kit buyers send back both the woofers and crossovers for you to pair with Sierra 2 ribbon tweeters? These paired Sierra 2's could be classified as Sierra 2 "C Stock" and priced lower than normal "B-Stock Sierra 2's. Just an option to avoid many tossed woofers and crossovers. I'd be happy to contribute to such a project rather than throwing these great units out.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Returning the original Sierra 2s woofers and cross-overs sounds interesting.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Hi Dave,
I just received my upgrade kit, and managed to find one of the magnetic protectors for the RAAL. Is there a proper way to place the magnetic protector back on the RAAL? The warning about air pressure blowing out the foil is making me pause.
Thanks,
Ryan
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
Hi Dave,
I just received my upgrade kit, and managed to find one of the magnetic protectors for the RAAL. Is there a proper way to place the magnetic protector back on the RAAL? The warning about air pressure blowing out the foil is making me pause.
Thanks,
Ryan
Do the upgrade instructions for the EX state that you should install the covers? You should be fine without them as they were intended as an extra measure of protection for shipping. If you are simply removing the RAAL in order to disconnect the leads from the crossover and then reverse the process, you should be ok without them.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
Do the upgrade instructions for the EX state that you should install the covers? You should be fine without them as they were intended as an extra measure of protection for shipping. If you are simply removing the RAAL in order to disconnect the leads from the crossover and then reverse the process, you should be ok without them.
The instructions say if you have them, you should use them. I think it’s probably more to protect against a slip of the screwdriver than anything else. Anyway, I just slid them back on and it was fine.
Thanks,
Ryan
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
The instructions say if you have them, you should use them. I think it’s probably more to protect against a slip of the screwdriver than anything else. Anyway, I just slid them back on and it was fine.
Thanks,
Ryan
Cool. Interested in your impressions once you complete the upgrade!
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
Cool. Interested in your impressions once you complete the upgrade!
Just finished the kit. Took maybe an hour or so to do both. Very simple. One small issue was the connectors for the leads to the woofers...a little loose and my pliers were probably not the right tool for the job. I debated soldering them on, but remembered my DIY days and that one time I accidentally had the iron too hot and literally melted the terminal right off a tweeter. It’s a funny anecdote on a $30 tweeter, not a $300 woofer. So I managed to crimp them a bit and think it’s good enough. I’ll check in a few days and make sure they’re still tight.
Turned them on and two things I noticed immediately, without giving the woofer a fair chance to break-in:
1. They are definitely warmer than the standard S2, which I prefer.
2. The bass is huge. I also have the Buchardt S400s and didn’t think I’d find a small bookshelf that could equal their bass. Well, I think the S2-EX may be at their level.
More to come.
-Ryan
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
Just finished the kit. Took maybe an hour or so to do both. Very simple. One small issue was the connectors for the leads to the woofers...a little loose and my pliers were probably not the right tool for the job. I debated soldering them on, but remembered my DIY days and that one time I accidentally had the iron too hot and literally melted the terminal right off a tweeter. It’s a funny anecdote on a $30 tweeter, not a $300 woofer. So I managed to crimp them a bit and think it’s good enough. I’ll check in a few days and make sure they’re still tight.
Turned them on and two things I noticed immediately, without giving the woofer a fair chance to break-in:
1. They are definitely warmer than the standard S2, which I prefer.
2. The bass is huge. I also have the Buchardt S400s and didn’t think I’d find a small bookshelf that could equal their bass. Well, I think the S2-EX may be at their level.
More to come.
-Ryan
Really can’t wait to hear your impression specially against the buchardt s400
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Sounds promising! Keep us posted. I’ll be upgrading sometime this year.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rifmon
Dave, could 2EX Upgrade Kit buyers send back both the woofers and crossovers for you to pair with Sierra 2 ribbon tweeters? These paired Sierra 2's could be classified as Sierra 2 "C Stock" and priced lower than normal "B-Stock Sierra 2's. Just an option to avoid many tossed woofers and crossovers. I'd be happy to contribute to such a project rather than throwing these great units out.
This would be something we would have to carefully consider. Ultimately, the Sierra-2EX will replace the Sierra-2 and sales have been brisk thus far such that using Sierra-2 cabinets for anything other than Sierra-2EX can possibly lead to inventory shortages.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
Hi Dave,
I just received my upgrade kit, and managed to find one of the magnetic protectors for the RAAL. Is there a proper way to place the magnetic protector back on the RAAL? The warning about air pressure blowing out the foil is making me pause.
Thanks,
Ryan
Hi Ryan - the protectors should simply be slid on or off. Instructions are listed on them but give us a call if you are having issues.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
2. The bass is huge. I also have the Buchardt S400s and didn’t think I’d find a small bookshelf that could equal their bass. Well, I think the S2-EX may be at their level.
More to come.
-Ryan
Do you run a sub with these and if so what do you cross it over at? I’m curious if a sub is used whether the EX driver will make much of a difference in bass response with a crossover of 80hz or higher. Since both speakers should be measuring pretty flat is there actually more bass output or just lower extension? Not sure how to interpret “more bass” if the frequency response is flat for both the regular Sierra 2 and the 2EX.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
This would be something we would have to carefully consider. Ultimately, the Sierra-2EX will replace the Sierra-2 and sales have been brisk thus far such that using Sierra-2 cabinets for anything other than Sierra-2EX can possibly lead to inventory shortages.
Dave, Glad to hear that your investment with SEAS in producing the EX woofer is a success!
I am bummed that I will have to wait a bit to join the EX club, but I know it will be worth the wait.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
djDANNY
Do you run a sub with these and if so what do you cross it over at? I’m curious if a sub is used whether the EX driver will make much of a difference in bass response with a crossover of 80hz or higher. Since both speakers should be measuring pretty flat is there actually more bass output or just lower extension? Not sure how to interpret “more bass” if the frequency response is flat for both the regular Sierra 2 and the 2EX.
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...0877#post60877
Hope that helps!
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
djDANNY
Do you run a sub with these and if so what do you cross it over at? I’m curious if a sub is used whether the EX driver will make much of a difference in bass response with a crossover of 80hz or higher. Since both speakers should be measuring pretty flat is there actually more bass output or just lower extension? Not sure how to interpret “more bass” if the frequency response is flat for both the regular Sierra 2 and the 2EX.
I have these in my home theater with a couple of PSA subs. Right now the crossover is set to 80hz and it blends nicely. I have also been listening to them quite a bit full range in my living room stereo set up, and if I were using them exclusively for 2 channel music I wouldn’t see the need for a subwoofer...at least with the music I listen to.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
For those of you did the upgrade, what are you planning on doing with your old woofer and crossover?
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Right now I have them just sitting in a bin with a bunch of other speaker parts. 😊 If Dave finds a use for them I will happily send them back to him.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Hey Dave! I'm definitely considering the EX upgrade for my L R C in the theater! Not sure what I'd do with the old woofers either.
Side note--are you planning to offer this same upgrade for the Luna speakers? I have a pair on my computer setup.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tknice
Hey Dave! I'm definitely considering the EX upgrade for my L R C in the theater! Not sure what I'd do with the old woofers either.
Side note--are you planning to offer this same upgrade for the Luna speakers? I have a pair on my computer setup.
I would highly doubt there would be a similar upgrade for the Lunas. The EX woofer was made for the White Diamond tweeter, and only after that upon overwhelming customer requests was it made to work with the RAAL tweeter in the Sierra-2.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
This upgrade does look great, I'd take the old woofers and drop them in a parts express flatpack enclosure. Reuse the crossover and find a tweeter with similar impedance and sensitivity for a bedroom speaker. Bit of eq and it probably wouldn't sound half bad for non critical listening
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Agreed, my guess is the phase plug would reduce the surface area of the already much smaller Luna woofer too much.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tknice
Hey Dave! I'm definitely considering the EX upgrade for my L R C in the theater! Not sure what I'd do with the old woofers either.
Side note--are you planning to offer this same upgrade for the Luna speakers? I have a pair on my computer setup.
Honestly, I hadn't even though about this type of upgrade with our 4.5" Curv woofer. I am not sure if it could even be done without new toolings being made, which costs a fortune. The upgrade worked out very well with our 6" Curv woofer because the motor system of the W16 woofer (magnet and Faraday rings (pure copper shorting rings) were able to be used in our already existing custom made basket frame, of which we own the tooling for. Let's just say we have no plans for an upgraded woofer in the Luna, nor do I feel it would be cost effective vs any performance improvements due to the fact that the cabinet volume is extremely limited.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
I have been using Sierra2 as mains paired with the horizon center and PSA XS15se sub. I use this system to watch movies, TV, and listen to music. The setup is working well for me. Should I upgrade the mains to new EXs? Would the bass diff be enough to use the upgraded speakers without a sub?
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
parmodmehta
I have been using Sierra2 as mains paired with the horizon center and PSA XS15se sub. I use this system to watch movies, TV, and listen to music. The setup is working well for me. Should I upgrade the mains to new EXs? Would the bass diff be enough to use the upgraded speakers without a sub?
For home theater, we always recommend using a subwoofer - even if you have large full range tower speakers. The EX upgrade does more than just improve bass - overall dynamics is considerably better and this is an important characteristic for home theater. If the upgrade is within your budget, I highly recommend it.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
For home theater, we always recommend using a subwoofer - even if you have large full range tower speakers. The EX upgrade does more than just improve bass - overall dynamics is considerably better and this is an important characteristic for home theater. If the upgrade is within your budget, I highly recommend it.
Thanks...I ordered the upgrade kit.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Hi Dave,
Just now reading about the Sierra 2EX upgrade. I currently have Sierra 2’s with a Horizon Raal center. Would the upgraded Sierra 2EX’s be a good match with the Horizon Raal center? The increased dynamics are of interest to me for home theater, but I want to confirm that the front 3 speakers will provide a consistent soundstage for dialogue and panned effects.
Gary
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
parmodmehta
Thanks...I ordered the upgrade kit.
Btw - any plans for a similar upgrade for horizon?
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
parmodmehta
Btw - any plans for a similar upgrade for horizon?
And, any plans for an EX upgrade for the Sierra-1 NrT's!?!
Ted
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
theophile
And, any plans for an EX upgrade for the Sierra-1 NrT's!?!
Ted
There’s a kit for Sierra 1 to Sierra 2EX. And if you want to keep the NRT instead of going to RAAL, I believe I saw Dave put together a kit for someone else in that situation, though it’s not available online.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RMW
There’s a kit for Sierra 1 to Sierra 2EX. And if you want to keep the NRT instead of going to RAAL, I believe I saw Dave put together a kit for someone else in that situation, though it’s not available online.
Thanks RMW, I read of the same situation. I've already asked Dina to get a quote for me (EX kit w\crossover for NrT users), as I plan to keep my S-1 NrT speakers! :cool:
Ted
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
theophile
And, any plans for an EX upgrade for the Sierra-1 NrT's!?!
Ted
If you mean to keep the NrT dome and use the EX woofer, we already have a design for this and the customer absolutely we made this for loves the speakers. I don't know if he is a forum member, if he is -- hopefully he will post something. That said, yes - we can do this.
If you want to convert Sierra-1 NrT to Sierra-2EX, you just need to order the Sierra-1 -> Sierra-2EX kits.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davef
If you mean to keep the NrT dome and use the EX woofer, we already have a design for this and the customer absolutely we made this for loves the speakers. I don't know if he is a forum member, if he is -- hopefully he will post something. That said, yes - we can do this.
If you want to convert Sierra-1 NrT to Sierra-2EX, you just need to order the Sierra-1 -> Sierra-2EX kits.
Thanks so much Dave (I pick door #1)! I just sent an e-mail to you to get some questions answered!!
Ted
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
I had US made Satin Expresso S-2s with a finish I knew I liked. I considered selling them and buying new S-2EXs. I considered buying the EX kit and modifying mine. In the end, I decided not to sell my S-2s (all those wanting to sell theirs can thank me for not contributing to a saturated market!), and to have Dave do the modification for me. That saved me a bit of modification hassle, but cost me time preparing for shipping and subsequent receiving. I also had to pay shipping costs, but it got me a pair of S-2EXs that are factory tested and matched to new pair spec. Ascend does not currently charge to do the mod for you - you pay for the kit and the shipping (which was a bit expensive going to them, but quite reasonable for the return leg). Maybe about +$100 compared to getting the kit and doing it yourself. Just another option for you all.
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Re: Sierra 2EX upgrade kit questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimb
I had US made Satin Expresso S-2s with a finish I knew I liked. I considered selling them and buying new S-2EXs. I considered buying the EX kit and modifying mine. In the end, I decided not to sell my S-2s (all those wanting to sell theirs can thank me for not contributing to a saturated market!), and to have Dave do the modification for me. That saved me a bit of modification hassle, but cost me time preparing for shipping and subsequent receiving. I also had to pay shipping costs, but it got me a pair of S-2EXs that are factory tested and matched to new pair spec. Ascend does not current charge to do the mod for you - you pay for the kit and the shipping (which was a bit expensive going to them, but quite reasonable for the return leg). Maybe about +$100 compared to getting the kit and doing it yourself. Just another option for you all.
Do you have them back yet? Any first impressions? I’m looking at doing the same thing. Just need to get a few things figured out. I’ve got a pair of the natural USA made cabinets that I really like.
The hardest part will be the 2-3 weeks without speakers. Lol. I actually contemplated just ordering a new pair for that reason.