Help with room acoustics? (Sierra-1 L/C/R)

Another update:

Sherwood finally responded to my customer support email and told me they highly doubt it's a hardware issue. They want me to test by calibrating off-centered. However, if that doesn't work, I'm not sure what my options are. I've thrown together some rough DIY Broadband Bass Trap plans, but I wish there was a better way to pinpoint the problem. I'll probably end up doing the panels regardless of the issue because it'll give me a nice after-work hobby ;).

Jonathan, I'm not sure if you're still monitoring this thread, but I was hoping you could give me your opinion on my DIY project. Basically I plan on making four 24" x 48" x 5.5" frames out of white pine. I plan on filling them with 4" of 1280 Mineral Wool, giving them an extra 1.5" of air (which I read improves efficiency). Will spacing those across my back wall do the trick (or at least a trick?) Thanks.

I really do not think the bass response of the speakers is throwing the calibration off, that would defeat the purpose of room equalization as the bass response is usually what requires the most equalization...

That stated, double check that your wiring at all speakers and also at the back of the receiver is the correct polarity. Positive to positive, negative to negative etc.

Based on your previous comment:

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I'm starting to believe it's a hardware issue. Two things led to my conclusion. If I set the EQ to "Speaker Distance and Level Only", dialogue only comes out the right speaker.

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Something is very, very off here... :(

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Originally Posted by davef

Something is very, very off here... :(

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That was my exact rebuttal to their claim. They responded by asking if I had all my speakers plugged in during the calibraion :rolleyes:. I've checked the speaker connections a minimum of 10 times, doing it again would just be crazy haha. The ONLY other possibility, besides a hardware malfunction, would be the EQ thinking my L and R handle dialogue better. It's a possibility, since I know the center channel works with the EQ off, but the weird glitch regarding level and distance doesn't add up. My "bass theory" has been thrown out since running test tones. If I had any complaints about the non-eq'd sound, it would be the center sounded weak and isolated. Standing it up improved the weakness, but it's still stands out during some content (if that makes any sense). Even after that, the calibration still reserved it for odd ambient sounds or film scores.

I wish I understood room acoustics better in order to think through what the problem could be (assuming its a room issue). Is it possible for a small room to create midrange nulls? I'm toying with the idea of DIY sound panels, regardless of how this ends. I figured it would give me something to do in my free time, plus worst case scenario, I absorb some reflections behind me.

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Originally Posted by Stump909

That was my exact rebuttal to their claim. They responded by asking if I had all my speakers plugged in during the calibraion :rolleyes:. I've checked the speaker connections a minimum of 10 times, doing it again would just be crazy haha. The ONLY other possibility, besides a hardware malfunction, would be the EQ thinking my L and R handle dialogue better. It's a possibility, since I know the center channel works with the EQ off, but the weird glitch regarding level and distance doesn't add up.

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From a technical standpoint, I don't see how Trinnov would decide that the left/right produce "better" dialogue than the center, thus deciding to send dialogue to the mains, unless of course, there is zero output from the center. Again, the point of auto equalization is to compensate for room/placement issues. Either the algorithms that Trinnov is using are inherently flawed (which is possible but doubtful) or something is not quite right in your receiver.

I strongly doubt room treatments are going to help Trinnov's logic (that would be counterintuitive as that is the purpose of Trinnov) --- why not try a different receiver?

Oy vey. :p

There's really only one way to come at this, at this point; and that is to do a thorough troubleshoot so that you can nail down exactly what is causing your problem.

Step 1: Reset your AV Receiver back to factory defaults.

Step 2: I'm not super familiar with your exact R-972 unit, but I believe it is possible to update its firmware. I also came across a fair amount of talk about it having had some bugs when it first came out - stuff that got fixed with a firmware update. I don't know the procedure for updating the R-972's firmware though.

So...talk to Sherwood and make sure you have the newest firmware for the unit. You can check the firmware version that is currently on yours by holding down the "Display" and "Enter" buttons on the front panel. I'm not sure how you go about updating the firmware, if there's a newer one, though. I imagine it's done through the USB port, but I'm not entirely sure...

Step 3: Go into the AV Receiver's menu and set the Front Main L&R speakers to "Large" or "Full Range" or whatever the name for no cross-over to a subwoofer is. Also set the Center speaker to "Large". And set all other speakers to "None" or "Off", including the subwoofer.

Step 4: Set the listening mode to Stereo

Step 5: Connect ONE speaker - and one speaker only. Start with the Front Left position. Connect one speaker to your AV Receiver's Front Left output. Do not connect any other speakers. Have a listen to just that one speaker, playing all by itself, with that speaker positioned where your Front Left speaker would normally go. Now swap out that one speaker for another one of your Sierra-1 speakers. Same thing - just the one speaker connected to the Front Left output of your AV Receiver, no other speakers connected, and have this 2nd Sierra-1 speaker in the same Front Left position. Have a listen to that speaker in that same spot. Then swap it out for the 3rd Sierra-1.

You just want to confirm that all 3 of the Sierra-1 speakers sound exactly the same when put in the exact same spot, and connected to the exact same output on your AV Receiver. All 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers should sound identical when you just swap them out, one after another, in this way.

Step 6: Now do the same process - ONE speaker only at a time, each of your 3 Sierra-1 speakers gets a turn all on its own - but using the Front Right speaker output on your AV Receiver, and putting each speaker in turn where your Front Right speaker would normally go.

Again, all 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers should sound identical - one after another, one at a time - in the exact same spot, using the exact same output. But try to take note if they sounded considerably different from when you tried them one at a time in the spot where your Front Left speaker would normally go.

Doing all of this, you should be easily able to confirm if one of your speakers has a defect (it will sound different from the other two Sierra-1 speakers, even though it's in the exact same spot, using the exact same output). And you should also be able to confirm just how much the sound changes when a speaker is in the spot where your Front Left speaker would normally go vs. when the speaker is in the spot where your Front Right speaker would normally go.

Step 7: After these tests, if you have confirmed that none of your Sierra-1 speakers has a defect, connect all 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers, and position them where they would normally go - Front Left, Center, and Front Right. At this point, you should be certain that the speakers themselves are all defect-free!

Step 8: Now put the AV Receiver into just standard Dolby Digital listening mode. (I'm kind of wondering if you might have been using the "Dolby Virtual Speaker" or "Theater" or "Neural Surround" mode, or something...)

Step 9: Put in a THX DVD. Not a Blu-ray. Just a DVD that has the THX Optimizer - such as Star Wars, or any Pixar DVD.

Use the THX Optimizer's Audio Tests. Follow the instructions to confirm that all of your speakers are wired correctly, and playing sound clearly.

At this point, you have NOT run Trinnov, and you have not made any changes to the speaker setup in your AV Receiver's menus, other than setting all 3 of your speakers to "Large", and turning all other speakers "off" or to "none". And you're using just the basic Dolby Digital listening mode.

Step 10: If you've followed the above steps in order, you should be able to confirm, at this point, if there is a hardware malfunction. Listen carefully to the static-noise test tones that the THX Optimizer plays. They should sound pretty much the same from each of your 3 speakers.

If you notice a big change in sound between the Front Left, Center and Front Right speakers when you go through the THX Optimizer Audio Tests while sitting at your seat, try moving away from your seat, and sit down more in the center of your room. Just go through the THX Optimizer Audio Tests while you, physically, are sitting more towards the center of your room and away from the back wall.

Doing this, you should be able to confirm if the differences in sound from Front Left to Center to Front Right are inherently coming from the speakers, or if they are more of a room acoustics issue.

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Basically, you just need to confirm that you don't have a hardware malfunction of some sort - either in your speakers, or in your AV Receiver. If you go through these steps, you should be able to pin point what is causing the issue. If you have confirmed that all of your speakers are problem-free, and you are sitting away from the walls, more towards the center of your room, and you're using just the basic Dolby Digital listening mode with no other processing going on at all - if you confirm all that, but the sound is wildly different coming from the Front Left vs. the Center vs. the Front Right speakers, then you will know that there is a malfunction in your AV Receiver. On the other hand, if everything sounds pretty good in this "stripped down" and most basic setup (with you sitting away from the walls of your room), then you will know that your problem is due to something else in either your setup, or your room acoustics.

Pin point the source of your problem first. Then we can discuss the best way to solve your problem. I'm all for acoustic treatments - and the plans you described are perfect for a broadband bass trap - but unless you figure out what is actually causing your problem, you're just chasing your tail, and introducing more variables!

I really hope we can figure this out. But we have to know, first, if your speakers have a defect, then, second, if your AV Receiver has a defect. Follow the steps above, and you should be able to nail that down :)

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Originally Posted by jonathan_teller

Oy vey. :p

There's really only one way to come at this, at this point; and that is to do a thorough troubleshoot so that you can nail down exactly what is causing your problem.

Step 1: Reset your AV Receiver back to factory defaults.

Step 2: I'm not super familiar with your exact R-972 unit, but I believe it is possible to update its firmware. I also came across a fair amount of talk about it having had some bugs when it first came out - stuff that got fixed with a firmware update. I don't know the procedure for updating the R-972's firmware though.

So...talk to Sherwood and make sure you have the newest firmware for the unit. You can check the firmware version that is currently on yours by holding down the "Display" and "Enter" buttons on the front panel. I'm not sure how you go about updating the firmware, if there's a newer one, though. I imagine it's done through the USB port, but I'm not entirely sure...

Step 3: Go into the AV Receiver's menu and set the Front Main L&R speakers to "Large" or "Full Range" or whatever the name for no cross-over to a subwoofer is. Also set the Center speaker to "Large". And set all other speakers to "None" or "Off", including the subwoofer.

Step 4: Set the listening mode to Stereo

Step 5: Connect ONE speaker - and one speaker only. Start with the Front Left position. Connect one speaker to your AV Receiver's Front Left output. Do not connect any other speakers. Have a listen to just that one speaker, playing all by itself, with that speaker positioned where your Front Left speaker would normally go. Now swap out that one speaker for another one of your Sierra-1 speakers. Same thing - just the one speaker connected to the Front Left output of your AV Receiver, no other speakers connected, and have this 2nd Sierra-1 speaker in the same Front Left position. Have a listen to that speaker in that same spot. Then swap it out for the 3rd Sierra-1.

You just want to confirm that all 3 of the Sierra-1 speakers sound exactly the same when put in the exact same spot, and connected to the exact same output on your AV Receiver. All 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers should sound identical when you just swap them out, one after another, in this way.

Step 6: Now do the same process - ONE speaker only at a time, each of your 3 Sierra-1 speakers gets a turn all on its own - but using the Front Right speaker output on your AV Receiver, and putting each speaker in turn where your Front Right speaker would normally go.

Again, all 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers should sound identical - one after another, one at a time - in the exact same spot, using the exact same output. But try to take note if they sounded considerably different from when you tried them one at a time in the spot where your Front Left speaker would normally go.

Doing all of this, you should be easily able to confirm if one of your speakers has a defect (it will sound different from the other two Sierra-1 speakers, even though it's in the exact same spot, using the exact same output). And you should also be able to confirm just how much the sound changes when a speaker is in the spot where your Front Left speaker would normally go vs. when the speaker is in the spot where your Front Right speaker would normally go.

Step 7: After these tests, if you have confirmed that none of your Sierra-1 speakers has a defect, connect all 3 of your Sierra-1 speakers, and position them where they would normally go - Front Left, Center, and Front Right. At this point, you should be certain that the speakers themselves are all defect-free!

Step 8: Now put the AV Receiver into just standard Dolby Digital listening mode. (I'm kind of wondering if you might have been using the "Dolby Virtual Speaker" or "Theater" or "Neural Surround" mode, or something...)

Step 9: Put in a THX DVD. Not a Blu-ray. Just a DVD that has the THX Optimizer - such as Star Wars, or any Pixar DVD.

Use the THX Optimizer's Audio Tests. Follow the instructions to confirm that all of your speakers are wired correctly, and playing sound clearly.

At this point, you have NOT run Trinnov, and you have not made any changes to the speaker setup in your AV Receiver's menus, other than setting all 3 of your speakers to "Large", and turning all other speakers "off" or to "none". And you're using just the basic Dolby Digital listening mode.

Step 10: If you've followed the above steps in order, you should be able to confirm, at this point, if there is a hardware malfunction. Listen carefully to the static-noise test tones that the THX Optimizer plays. They should sound pretty much the same from each of your 3 speakers.

If you notice a big change in sound between the Front Left, Center and Front Right speakers when you go through the THX Optimizer Audio Tests while sitting at your seat, try moving away from your seat, and sit down more in the center of your room. Just go through the THX Optimizer Audio Tests while you, physically, are sitting more towards the center of your room and away from the back wall.

Doing this, you should be able to confirm if the differences in sound from Front Left to Center to Front Right are inherently coming from the speakers, or if they are more of a room acoustics issue.

------------------

Basically, you just need to confirm that you don't have a hardware malfunction of some sort - either in your speakers, or in your AV Receiver. If you go through these steps, you should be able to pin point what is causing the issue. If you have confirmed that all of your speakers are problem-free, and you are sitting away from the walls, more towards the center of your room, and you're using just the basic Dolby Digital listening mode with no other processing going on at all - if you confirm all that, but the sound is wildly different coming from the Front Left vs. the Center vs. the Front Right speakers, then you will know that there is a malfunction in your AV Receiver. On the other hand, if everything sounds pretty good in this "stripped down" and most basic setup (with you sitting away from the walls of your room), then you will know that your problem is due to something else in either your setup, or your room acoustics.

Pin point the source of your problem first. Then we can discuss the best way to solve your problem. I'm all for acoustic treatments - and the plans you described are perfect for a broadband bass trap - but unless you figure out what is actually causing your problem, you're just chasing your tail, and introducing more variables!

I really hope we can figure this out. But we have to know, first, if your speakers have a defect, then, second, if your AV Receiver has a defect. Follow the steps above, and you should be able to nail that down :)

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Thanks again Jonathan. I feel bad every time I read one of your thorough responses...I don't want to waste your time haha.

After speaking with Sherwood directly, I may have stumbled across a bug related to my receiver. There's a theoretical work around, so I'm going to give that a shot (fingers crossed). I have swapped between the 3 speakers, and didn't notice any change in sound or quality. I'm still considering panels for just the sake of improving room related issues (also sounds like a fun DIY project). One thing I did notice was how much my "hollow and isolated" center improved by standing it upright (and rotating the tweeter). I know you said that was just splitting hairs, but I no longer find myself cringing with EQ off. Perhaps it's just placebo...

No worries! Anything I write is totally voluntary :)

It just bugs me like a tic when I know someone has really good gear, but they're getting unsatisfactory sound. I have a friend who took me up on my offer to put together a really nice, but inexpensive surround sound system for him. I got him the Pioneer SP-FS52 Towers, SP-C22 Center and SP-BS22-LR Bookshelf surrounds along with a Fluance 10" sub and a heavily discounted Onkyo TX-NR709. Did the quick and basic setup, and right away, I noticed things just didn't sound right coming from the Front Left speaker. Put my ear right up to it, and voila, there was no sound coming from the tweeter! Just had a bad SP-FS52 Tower unit. No biggie. Swapped it out for a new one, and everything was right with the world :) Did the "subwoofer crawl". Put his sub on an Auralex SubDude. Opitmized speaker placement. And then ran Audyssey MultEQ XT. Did a ton of A/B comparisons for all of the "volume levelling" options. Wound up liking Dolby Volume on the "low" setting the most, by far. He and his wife really, really wanted to keep the dynamics under control, but not give up too much detail. Have to say, while I still prefer no dynamic compression/adjustment of any kind, myself, Dolby Volume on "low" wasn't too bad. And it really made my friend and his wife happy!

But it all started out with a defective speaker. And my friend kept saying how he never would have noticed it at all - haha. There are just so many settings, though, and so many variables, that I really feel it is vital to just go one step at a time. Confirm at every step that things are working correctly. When that's done, you can "tinker" and adjust the sound to taste. But having all of the basics down pat is absolutely critical.

So I'm very glad to know that you've confirmed there are no defects in your speakers, themselves. That's key! As I outlined in the steps above, though - have a seat out in the middle of your room, well away from any walls. Try each speaker position (Left, Center and Right) one at a time, with only one speaker connected at a time. Really try to nail down if there might be a problem with your AV Receiver. Sitting in the middle of your room, the speakers should all sound very close to identical - regardless of whether they are in the Left, Center or Right position.

If they sound pretty much identical when you are sitting in the middle of the room, but then the sound changes when you move back to your regular seat, then at least you will know that the problem is an acoustics issue, and not a hardware malfunction in your AV Receiver. One by one, we need to eliminate the variables that might be the cause for your problems.

Finding out about a possible bug in your AV Receiver is certainly important! As I say, I'm not really familiar with the R-972, but I've read that it had a few bugs upon release. Definitely get it updated to the newest firmware if yours has an older version at present.

But knowing for sure that it is not a defective speaker is a huge first step. The Sierra-1 are excellent speakers, so we know there is a problem with something else. You could actually do what I did with the Pioneer speakers that I got for my friend: go right up close to them while they're playing. Put your ear right up next to them. And make sure that the sound coming from each of them while connected to the Front Left, Center and Front Right outputs of your AV Receiver are identical. When you are right up close to the speakers like that, there is no chance for room acoustics to be the problem. If the sound is different coming from one of the speakers when you are right up close to the speakers like that, then you'll know there's a problem with the AV Receiver. But make sure the AV Receiver is in its most "basic" state when you do this. No Trinnov. No extra processing. No fancy listening mode. Just basic Dolby Digital, all other processing turned off. The sound should be exactly the same coming from each speaker. And if you have your ear literally right next to the speaker, as close as you can, you will be able to confirm if your AV Receiver is outputting something wrong ;)

Stump909,
I'd love to hear your solution if one was found.

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Originally Posted by dougand

Stump909,
I'd love to hear your solution if one was found.

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Sadly (luckily?), it was a glitch with my receiver. Apparently it's EQ system only handles 2.1 or 5/6/.1. During the process I discovered rotating the center vertically had a slight improvement in sound quality (with EQ off), but not enough to block and inch of my TV. My solution was to rerun the calibration, and it when it came to the rear test tones, I plugged the L/R into the rear outputs and quickly spun the mic 180 degrees. Now the center sounds great, and I don't really mind losing the rear data.