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We've had the setup below for about 6 months now and it has been just awesome! Really happy with the sound.
Sierra-2 L/R/C
HTM-200 rears
Rythmik LV12R
After some discussions with audiophile friends and realizing just how much dialogue comes from the center channel (movies & TV), I've been wondering if upgrading the center Sierra-2 to the Horizon would be worthwhile? Anyone running the Sierra-2's L/R with a Horizon center?
Thanks, this forum has been great!
That's a toughie!
First up, the Horizon RAAL and the Sierra-2 share an excellent timbre match, IMO. I run three custom Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers as my Front 3, but I spent a considerable amount of critical listening time comparing the Sierra-2 to my Horizon RAAL speakers.
It really all began because I started with Sierra-1 NrT Surrounds, Backs, and Heights. So I had those 6 Sierra-1 NrT speakers, I had my 3 custom Sierra Horizon RAAL Front speakers; but, the real kicker is that I also have a pair of super custom bookshelf speakers that use the Sierra-1 cabinet, but have the Sierra Tower midrange driver and the larger RAAL 70-20 tweeter (so the exact same midrange driver and tweeter as the ones in my custom Horizon RAAL speakers). I use these super custom bookshelf speakers as my Front Wides.
Naturally, being the nut job that I am, I couldn't help myself, and I tried putting those super custom bookshelf speakers - the ones with the Tower midrange and 70-20 ribbon tweeter - in my Surround positions just so I could compare how they sounded to the Sierra-1 NrT as Surrounds. I also tried the Sierra-1 NrT as my Front L&R, the Front Wide bookshelf speakers as Front L&R, and compared them both to my custom Horizon RAAL Front L&R speakers.
To cut to the chase, there was a fairly obvious difference in timbre between the Sierra-1 NrT speakers and my Horizon RAAL Fronts. The Sierra-1 NrT are excellent speakers in their own right, please do not get me wrong! But their tone and timbre simply did not sound identical to the Horizon RAAL speakers. Meanwhile, the super custom Front Wide bookshelf speakers did sound identical in timbre to my Horizon RAAL Front speakers, but the super custom Front Wides need to be crossed over to my pair of subwoofers quite high - I use a 120Hz crossover, which seems to work very well - because, after all, they are only using a dedicated midrange driver, not a bass driver.
So for my Surround positions, I decided that I really did enjoy having that perfect timbre match, which the Sierra-1 NrT weren't quite providing. But I also wanted speakers that could cross over to my subwoofers at a lower frequency than 120Hz. My Surrounds are very close to my seats, so any chance of localization in the bass frequencies was something I want to avoid.
So all of this led me to getting the Sierra-2 upgrades. And this is where we get to the real meat :D
I am hyper critical. And, like I mentioned, my Surround speakers are physically very close to my seats. So the simple fact is that what I observed might not really be a shared experience by other listeners. And if my setup were in a larger room, it really might not even apply to me!
But to cut to the chase, the timbre match between the Horizon RAAL Front, super custom Front Wides, and Sierra-2 is excellent. Essentially flawless. And it is - I can't say "dramatic" - but, IMO, really a fairly obvious difference from the Sierra-1 NrT. Again, not taking anything away from the Sierra-1 NrT. It's just that the timbre match with the Sierra-2 to the Horizon RAAL speakers really is just extremely close.
So there's just that greater uniformity to the timbre of the sound all the way around the room now. And that is kind of a magical thing when you hear it :) Honestly, it's pretty rare in terms of moments in recordings or soundtracks where that timbre match is an audible benefit. I still maintain that if you are going to "skimp" anywhere in your speaker system, you ought to skimp on your Surround speakers because the vast majority of the time, if they're playing anything at all, it's just ambience or the odd sound effect. But for those few, rare instances where a sound actually pans all around you or you're listening to full surround sound music, it really is kind of nice when the timbre just matches perfectly all around you. One of those, "it's tough to go back" type of things ;)
But all of that praise aside now, I do not think the Sierra-2 sound identical to the Horizon RAAL speakers. First of all, the Horizon RAAL can play louder. That is almost certainly not a necessity in most rooms since the Sierra-2 can play plenty loud! It isn't even remotely needed in my tiny theater - haha. But nevertheless, that is an objective fact.
But more than that, I have found - through A-B comparisons - that the Horizon RAAL are just a little bit more resolving. The way I describe it is that the Horizon RAAL make it seem as though the singer or the instrument has moved maybe 5 feet closer to you, but without getting any louder.
So just imagine that someone is speaking to you and they're 10 feet away. That would be the Sierra-2 in this analogy. Now imagine that the same person is speaking to you, their voice isn't any louder, but now they're only 5 feet away. That would be the Horizon RAAL. You can probably imagine how you would be able to hear some really subtle details when they're 5 feet away that you can't quite make out when they're 10 feet away. I like to say that with the Sierra-2, I can hear their breath, their lips pulling apart and coming back together, the click of their teeth. But with the Horizon RAAL, I can hear them blink -- haha. That might be a little bit of hyperbole, but it's that sort of experience. So hopefully that type of silly verbal illustration will get across what I'm trying to convey ;)
So to put it simply, IMO, the Sierra-2 and the Horizon RAAL Center would make for an excellent match. Would going from a Sierra-2 Center to the Horizon RAAL Center be a big upgrade? No. I honestly would not think that to be the case. They sound FAR more similar than different.
But I would say that they do not sound identical and that the Horizon RAAL does remain that little bit clearer and that little bit more resolving. Would that be worth the cost to you? I honestly cannot say. It is your money and your determination of value.
I, being a crazy person, am glad that I went with the custom Horizon RAAL Front speakers. I am super glad that I went with my super custom Front Wide speakers; having that perfect sonic match across all 5 speakers at the front of my room is just sort of a magical-sounding thing. As front Height speakers, even the Sierra-1 NrT were honestly a close enough sonic match. I went ahead and upgraded those to Sierra-2 anyway, but I can honestly say that, at least in my experience, the Height channels just don't require a perfect timbre match because the placement and the way we humans hear just makes small differences in tone and timbre inaudible.
I can say a very similar thing for the Surround Back positions. I'll say that I'm glad I upgrade those to Sierra-2, as well, but I can't honestly say it was really necessary. So little critical sound ever comes from those Back channels that, again, the Sierra-1 NrT probably would have been every bit as good, even without a perfect timbre match.
My Surrounds, though, they're the real trick. Being so physically close to my seats, they're practically headphones in my setup! haha. The Sierra-2 were very, very worthwhile to me as an upgrade over the Sierra-1 NrT. Having a really, really close to perfect timbre match going from the Fronts to my Wides to my Surrounds is a thing of beauty. BUT, I do know what those super custom Front Wides can sound like in my Surround positions. And as good and as close as the Sierra-2 are, like I said, I don't think they quite sound identical.
So since I want to get into Atmos, and maybe even Auro-3D, I actually think I might end up getting a pair of Sierra Towers RAAL to use as Surrounds. Yes, that would take me to 13 speakers and 2 subwoofers in a tiny apartment home theater. In case you couldn't guess, yes, ladies, I am still available :p
Anywho, that is my extremely long way of saying that upgrading from a Sierra-2 Center to a Horizon RAAL Center might be worthwhile. It's really tough for me to just yell "go for it!" because the difference really is subtle, not large, and because the Sierra-2 already match the Horizon RAAL extremely well in timbre and tone. But, IMO, they do not sound identical, and the Horizon RAAL does still sound just that little bit clearer with just that little bit better resolution. And objectively, it can play louder and with greater dynamics.
That might not be much help, but I hope it will give you an idea of what you might be in for if you decide to go ahead with the Horizon RAAL purchase!
Take care,
Rob H.
First, you have an amazing number of Ascend speakers and variations. Wow.
Second, that is an incredibly detailed description. Wow.
Third, who wants my Satin Dark Cherry Sierra-2 center?? I've been convinced to upgrade!
I really love that satin dark cherry, very warm.
Thanks Rob, really appreciate the insights!
The 2's really shine as surrounds with multichannel recordings.
The timbre-match is well worth the extra $$$ IMHO!
My Surrounds are also rather close at hand so it does make a BIG difference.
I just purchased Sierra 2s for my fronts and am using some Aperion audio speakers that I won as surrounds. There is definitely a difference between the two speakers. It sounds to me like the Aperions can't "keep up" with the Sierra 2s. The Sierra 2s image well and have fast transient response. I can hear how this kind of goes away when I have some sounds pan from the fronts to my surround speakers. It isn't often, but when it does happen it is distracting. Unfortunately, I am planning to have a dedicated theater room in the near future that is only about 11.5 or 12 feet wide with two rows of seats. If each row is for two or three people, the outside person would be very close to the Sierra 2s, if I am using them as surrounds. I may not have the option of going with Sierra 2s as surrounds and just have to settle with HTM 200s, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by essneff
Have you made the switch yet? Just curious because I am about to buy a pair of Sierra 2s for my fronts, and I am trying to decide if I should go with the Horizon RAAL or Sierra 2 for the center.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
I haven't yet, but working on it! If I were you and not too concerned about the higher price, I'd upgrade to the Horizon. Don't get me wrong, the Sierra-2's are incredibly nice and are great for L/R/C. The Horizon, from what I can tell, is a more "dedicated" center channel speaker. If you're like me and questioning it at this point in your purchase, you might as well upgrade now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipless
I'll update once I do get the Horizon.
Thanks for the reply! I find myself agreeing with your logic, but of course the other argument is that having Sierra 2s across the front (as you currently do) is the ideal setup since everything is perfectly matched. Not to mention, it's over $600 cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
Thus, I am anxious to hear what you think once you've had a chance to compare the two. Please keep us posted, and thanks again for the response.
It'll be a few weeks before I get the Horizon center (looking like after Thanksgiving). They are back ordered.
I have the Satin Dark Cherry color. I've learned that the cabinet makers for the Sierra-2's (Asia) and the Towers & Horizon (California) are different. This means Satin Dark Cherry is a bit different between the two cabinet makers, not sure about other colors. If you want things to match, better to do it on the front end. You can get the Sierra-2's to match the Towers & Horizon, but you need to specify that is what you want.
Thanks for the update as well as the info about the colors. That is definitely good to know. Now the real question is, can I hold out over a month to place an order, and then possibly have to wait another month or so to receive my presents?...I already sense myself losing that battle, but I will try nonetheless. Thanks again!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I was wondering if you finally did upgrade to the Horizon center and your before/after impressions.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
I'm considering the same upgrade from Sierra 2 center to a Horizon because I'm mostly home theater, and I've been advised that the best center channel possible is the way to go, and the Horizon looks like the ultimate Center channel. What gives me pause is that I'd lose the timbre matching inherent with my current Sierra 2 L/C/R setup due to the different woofer and driver complement.
My Horizon was delivered today - the cabinet itself is just beautiful. I really like the California made cabinets, very impressive. It is massive compared to the Sierra-2's. The dimensions on a website are one thing, while setting it up is another to really appreciate the volume (size) of this beast. Mounting it to a wall would be challenging... really challenging. I didn't want to set my expectations too high and was slightly expecting to not notice a big difference. I was wrong. In just watching some TV, there was a very noticeable difference in how much clearer dialogue sounds. I'm playing some music now through all five channels to get some time on it and it's just fabulous. These speakers not only sound amazing, but look great too. I really dig that Satin Dark Cherry. I will run Audyessy this weekend to get everything set-up properly and so far, so good!
Wish I could give you a more technical review, but I'm still learning.
Since the Horizon is more efficient than the Sierra-2, it probably is playing a little louder. That could be a factor in the better sound along with better sound. :D Could you try to match levels and then compare the two for us? I'm curious if it's still that dramatic of an improvement.
I agree with Nate...make sure the Horizon is level matched. If you didn't, then it is definitely playing louder than the Sierra-2's.Quote:
Originally Posted by natetg57
Is this something that will correct with running Audyssey?Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
Yes. Any auto setup/"room eq" software should be able to do this just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
Can you check your levels before and after? It's likely that Audyssey will adjust the Horizon down to -2 or -3 relative to the front left and right speakers. If you prefer the Horizon to be a little louder, than there is nothing wrong with boosting it back up a little after Audyssey is run.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000m2
Do we have pics of the Sierra-2 Center?
It's a standard Sierra-2 on its side, tweeter rotated 90 degrees, with a full length grille.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roen
Is there any argument to use a vertically oriented S2 based on these results?Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...valuation.html
If you can do a standard Sierra-2, then do it. A Sierra-2 on its side has no performance advantage, just aesthetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roen
I think 3 vertical S2's are how I'll be arranging the speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
So my issue now is that I cannot maintain the same vertical tweeter height across all 3. Even horizontal S2 would not solve my problem.
I have my S2's on 30" stands, and the tweeter is higher than the bottom of the TV.
How bad would it be to raise the S2 Center as high as possible, and tilt it so that it aims on a straight line to my ears?
Is there any other way of orienting the speakers that you would do?
Rake angle.
I had three vertical S2's across the front also. The center's tweeter was a good foot to foot and a half below the L & R's. Didn't matter as I had it angled up so that a straight line, projected out from center of the ribbon, converged on the same spot as the L & R's at the MLP.
Seamlessness across the front three was perfect.
I made my own stand pretty simply, but you can buy isolation pads that are angled, or even just use door stoppers.
schweeet.Quote:
Originally Posted by mose harper
Should I raise the speaker at all or just point it up?
And lastly, definition of MLP?
3 vertical S2's is a terrific option, offering a bit more symmetrical horizontal dispersion than a horizontally configured S2. It is absolutely OK if the tweeters are not all at the same height. How far back are you sitting from the center and at what vertical height will the center be placed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roen
Left and Right are measured at 8.6 ft by YPAO. Center should be Similar distance. Center will be 5 3/4" lower than L and R, so will need a tilt to compensate. L and R are currently on 30" stands.
This the route I'd go if I end up going with Sierra 2's in the future. 3 Sierra 2's vertical. I have 3 bookshelf speakers now as LCR, actually I have bookshelf or studio monitors now for all 5 channels. I love it. A great bookshelf and a great sub are as good if not better than towers in my opinion.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2017...9744fa2bd1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by JC1
Works very nicely.
Using IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R 155 to tilt.
Wow how sick does that sound? What are you using for surrounds? I was actually thinking of going with 5 Luna's and adding a second sub. Think I could get away with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roen
None yet, will probably go two Luna's.
Will need to change out the Atmos upfiring from AFX to R50.
Sounds seamless, definitely nicer than horizontal centers.
I think Luna's with two subs should be fine, as long as you have a sub that can fill in the bass range well between the Sierra-2 cutoff and the Luna cutoff, in addition to the bass range below the Sierra-2 cutoff.
I wonder, what would be a better setup, LCR S2, like I have, or LCR Horizon?
I feel like my room setup would be the ideal candidate for 3 co-linear Horizon across the front, all slightly tilted up.
Pic of current room setup: https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0721c2bb1e.jpg