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I have a pair of Sierra 2’s that I think might benefit from more power. Currently I run them full range with a musichall audio integrated 50Wx2 setup.
I’m in between a pair of monoblocks from outlaw model 2200 (200W each) or a parasound a23 (125Wx2 dual channel amp).
Any recommendations?
Thanks for the time!
Hard to answer without knowing room size, type of music, etc. I ran my S2s with a variety of gear. 85wpc Yamaha integrated, 120wpc Plinius integrated and 250wpc Teac integrated. Finally settled on a 70wpc Marantz integrated and it works well in my treated 18 x 10 listening room.
You have amazing speakers, and my experience would suggest electronics won't make a huge difference. Depending on your situation, $ may be better spent on room treatments, a solid DAC or turntable (if you're into vinyl).
My journey indicates that speakers, turntable/cartridge, DAC and SACD player choices (in that order) have yielded more noticeable improvement than electronics. And the Plinius and Teac units are no slouches ... the latter sharing engineering with the Esoteric team.
Quick question -- how far back is your main listening position from the speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by davef
I sit about 4.5ft away from the speakers. I have since then upgraded to an ATI AT6002 amplifier.
Wow!! 300wpc and only 4.5’ from the speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Do you notice any kind of difference from the 50wpc integrated? If so, can you describe it for us?
Wait, did I just write that? It must be a sign :) It was a typo. I actually upgraded to an ATI AT1802 180W/channel.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
The most noticeable difference to me is there is a perceived pronouncement of certain instruments in the lower mid range. I hear some bass tones more pronounced than I used to. Most sounds are clearly more pronounced.
The low range bass is definitely tighter which is always welcome. Overall I'd say much better control and better emphasis on certain frequencies (I can only imagine it's cleaned up a bit).
One welcome addition is the peak light indicator, whenever I see those just hint I immediately back up on the volume. It does surprise me that I can still make the amp peak being this thing is massive! It was almost impossible to move this amplifier around (so heavy).
I did however come from a pretty good integrated (musichall audio 15.3 amp). I am still using it as a pre-amp untill I can source a dedicated pre-amp.
I use an older five channel version of that amp, the 1505. I am surprised you can light up the peak light, I never have, and I have cranked it pretty loud, but I do use a sub.
Yeah, I was surprised too. Maybe it’s too new and needs a break in? Could also be the gain level output of my pre-amp is too high.
I don’t know enough about it to be sure though.
Maybe Dave can chime in. What SPL levels do you feel comfortable with the Sierra 2s?
When listening in Ascend’s demo room, with a stereo pair of S2’s, we hit close to 100db peaks as a test(I forget the exact number, it was much louder than even my loudest listening levels) Dave was measuring with his calibrated mic. I think that was 12’ away using an ADA PTM-6150, which is also a 150wpc amp.
Personally, I don’t think I get listen much more than 90-95 dB peaks at most. I sit about 9.5’ away.
Yeah, so maybe there is an issue with the gain levels.
Something isn't right... That is an extremely powerful amplifier (we have one in our demo room) I have never had the peak indicator light up, not even once, even with a listening distance of 12-14 feet away from the speakers. Please keep in mind that if that peak indicator is lighting up, you are hitting the Sierra-2 with at least 200 watts, which is well above their max power handling capability. You risk doing serious damage to the speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
In addition, at only 4.5 feet away, it is important for you to realize that you are reaching a volume level of above 110dB, which can easily cause permanent damage to your hearing in less than a minute... This may be why you are seeing so much movement on your ribbon tweeters.
Amplifiers do not break-in... Power amplifiers like these have fixed gain, and the peak indicator measures either the voltage level of the amplifier output, the output current, or power supply ripple current, either way - when the peak indicator lights up - your amplifier is reaching its absolute maximum output. Only 2 possibilities here, you are either listening at a ridiculously high volume level and pushing the speakers too hard, or there is something wrong with your amp...
Maybe I'm going deaf lolQuote:
Originally Posted by davef
Maybe I can hit two birds with one stone here while we check some stuff out.
I've been toying with the idea of adding some absorption panels (since I know there are a tone of reflections in my listening room)
I have been looking into running REW but cant decide if thats the best tool for what I need. But now I also want to measure SPL levels to see if maybe I am really pushing more than I should be on volume levels.
What would kill two birds with one stone Dave? What do you suggest I do for this scenario with tightning up the room and also measuring to see what volumes I have been pushing the speakers to.
Thanks for all the help.
J
The first step should be getting a calibrated SPL meter so we can determine what exactly is going on...Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Dave,
Do you think this will do the trick?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07558DPKN/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ADEITUI78DBPL&psc=1
I think you forgot to attach something...Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Fixed!
No, you need an SPL meter that has "C" weighting. Something like this: http://a.co/cpLetKYQuote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
You can find plenty of videos on youtube about how to properly measure peak SPL...
I received the SPL meter that Dave recommended.
I tested the same tracks that I usually saw the “peak” lights on.
It was reading about 100-103db before there was a slight indication of the peak light coming on.
That’s pretty loud. That’s your “normal” listening levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
At those peaks, I still don’t think you should be seeing the peak lights.
Those aren’t my normal listening levels.
I’d say it’s momentarely. Well I’m not sure if they were peaks. I’d say that was average dB.
Would a tweeter failing trip the peak lights?
if that’s average, that is crazy loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
As as for the tweeter failing, Dave would need to answer that. At that average level though, it might qualify as abuse.
Really I’d have to check if those are peaks or averages.
I would think I’d see peak and average on the device but I would have to read the manual it came with.
Like mentioned before, lighting up the peak lights on the amp all the time, something isn't right, and it jives with extremely loud listening levels that you just measured.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
I can drive people out of my room before those lights come on with my amp.
I might not be making my point correctly. The lights are NOT on all the time. They will flash briefly at those levels at which point I lower the level until they do not come on again.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
I agree with driving people out of the room at those levels, it really depends on peoples thresholds.
My question is: Why do they even come on at all? Do you wish you can listen louder than what the amp/speakers will allow?Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
With your listening position at 4.5 feet, I really don't understand it.
BTW...this seems like a regular occurrence, hence my use of "all the time".Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Reading the tweeter thread, this does seem to be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
Initially I commented what I had seen. It is a new amplifier. My old amplifier did not have this.
I’m ok with the levels it sounds now. In a previous moment Dave and I were set out to find what might be happening. Based on the spl levels and when the peak lights would come on, we would find more information.
If the lights came on at the levels I reported then we can assume the amplifier is operating correctly. It is reaching the levels expected where that would be an occurrence.
If the peak lights went on at an SPL reading of 80db then something else might have been going on.
Did I say 4.5ft? I meant meters...
The tweeter thread might correlate with what we are seeing here. High power amp, high levels, ribbon flexes and moves all over the place.
I am already in talks with Dave on an issue related to this.
Ahh! That would explain it. That requires a lot more power to meet that 100-103db than at 4.5 feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
Yes sir. On the other hand, I am beginning to think my pre amplifier might be having an effect on the amplifier showing the peak lights.Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis
See I am using what used to be my previous amplifier (integrated music hall audio) as a pre amplifier. The more I look at the specs, the more it makes me think this might be part of the issues with that.
I have been "upgrading" my setup little by little (as much as my time permits me to do research).
The pre-out line voltage is actually pretty low 660mV. This could be clipping or maxing out the signal as it gets to the amplifier. Maybe, just a theory and I don't know enough about it to be sure.
From the specs off of the ATI AT1802, the amp requires 1.8V input for full power output.
Good news is, this week I get a brand new Belles audio pre-amp sent out to me (which based on what I've read should be just what I am looking for).
Their line out is reated at 3V so if it is having an effect on what I am seeing, this might be part of it.
I shall report more soon.
I don’t think the input side has much to do with it.
To reach 103db will always take the same amount of output from the amp. With more line out from the preamp, you will just get there sooner.
To play at continuous 103dB volume at 15ft with an 87dB sensitivity speaker like the Sierra-2 run full range requires somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-400 watts of power. That far exceeds the rated power handling of the Sierra-2 which is 150 watts continuous. I would not be surprised to see the RAAL tweeter dancing around like a belly dancer under such conditions.
The issue is not your pre-amplifier, the issue is your volume levels combined with your listening distance. Everything is functioning as should be expected, because you corrected the distance that did not make sense from 4.5 feet to 4.5 meters.Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmc
To reach 103dB at your listening position with a pair of Sierra-2's will require 400 watts of power. This is considerably more power than your amplifier can provide (without clipping), and also considerably more power than the Sierra-2's are capable of handling. You are seeing the ribbon tweeter move like you mentioned because you are damaging it, you are also likely damaging the woofer as well.
If you wish to listen at these volume levels at 4.5 meters away and with that ATI amp, you are going to need speakers with a rated sensitivity level of at least 90dB and that can handle 200 watts of power. I am honestly very confused about everything as you had originally mentioned to me that you listen at low volume levels and in the nearfield. 103dB is extremely loud and 4.5 meters is definitely not nearfield listening.
The math in calculating this is simple and I strongly suggest you research it a bit.
At this point, I recommend you upgrade to our Towers, or start listening at lower volume levels which will not clip your amp or push the speakers with more power than they are designed for. Your safe volume level with this amp and at your distance is peaks of 99dB, which is still plenty loud. When those peak lights are activated, in many cases, it is already too late. While it might seem like no big deal to go from 99dB to 102dB, that seemingly small jump in volume requires double the amount of power, from 150 watts in this case, to 300 watts.
Jiminy, is that you?!!