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Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
So my friend bought a pair of Sierra 2 off of the internet but the tweeters aren't working. So can we buy new tweeters from Ascend to replace. There seems to be some tears in the tweeters. Not sure what could have caused this.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Probably caused by someone playing too loud and an amp clipping.
You should call Dina/Ascend on Monday -- they'll likely be able to sell you the tweeters.
S1 to S2 upgrade kits are also available directly on the site. These have the tweeter, but also include woofer and cross-over which you won't need.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
Probably caused by someone playing too loud and an amp clipping.
You should call Dina/Ascend on Monday -- they'll likely be able to sell you the tweeters.
S1 to S2 upgrade kits are also available directly on the site. These have the tweeter, but also include woofer and cross-over which you won't need.
Thanks...can we upgrade to the EX with the tweeter?
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Thanks...can we upgrade to the EX with the tweeter?
The Sierra-2 and the Sierra-2EX both use the same the same RAAL tweeter, so the answer is yes. The upgrade kit for to the Sierra-1 to Sierra-2EX will also include a woofer, tweeter, and crossover.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch..._Code=7SR1T2EX
The Sierra-1, Sierra-2, and Sierra-2EX all use a different woofer.
The Sierra-1 has a different tweeter.
Did your friend know the speakers were damaged before buying them?
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
The Sierra-2 and the Sierra-2EX both use the same the same RAAL tweeter, so the answer is yes. The upgrade kit for to the Sierra-1 to Sierra-2EX will also include a woofer, tweeter, and crossover.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch..._Code=7SR1T2EX
The Sierra-1, Sierra-2, and Sierra-2EX all use a different woofer.
The Sierra-1 has a different tweeter.
Did your friend know the speakers were damaged before buying them?
The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?
You should be able to just get the tweeter if that is what you want.
As racrawford posted, call Ascend/Dina to get your options.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
RAAL tweeters won't work perfectly if torn...they won't work at all...no way to vibrate to create sound. You could try talking with seller since he was not 100% upfront (he did say about the tear). Depending on how paid, you may have recourse.
If you get the S1 to S2EX upgrade, you get everything needed -- woofer, tweeter, crossover.
If you get the S2 to S2EX kit, you get everything needed - woofer, crossover. No tweeter as S2 and S2EX have same.
So, if you want to upgrade to the EX, that would be the way I'd go. If you just want to replace the tweeters, you'll need to call Ascend. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you one. I blew one on my S2's awhile ago and was able to get a tweeter.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch..._Code=UPGRADES
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Looks like Curtis is a faster typist :-)
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Eek! "Appears to be torn" is an understatement! My stomach sank for you when I saw the title.
Give them a call. Things are a little upside down over there right now and Dina has been a little slow getting back to me, but was absolutely willing to work with me and I'm sure you guys can get a resolution figured out. Too bad the EX kits don't include a tweeter too. You could not only fix, but upgrade them too.
Just brace yourself. Those tweeters ain't cheap! This is a positive case of you get what you pay for tho. Best sounding tweeters I've heard.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
Looks like Curtis is a faster typist :-)
I've had my morning coffee. :)
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
RAAL tweeters won't work perfectly if torn...they won't work at all...no way to vibrate to create sound. You could try talking with seller since he was not 100% upfront (he did say about the tear). Depending on how paid, you may have recourse.
If you get the S1 to S2EX upgrade, you get everything needed -- woofer, tweeter, crossover.
If you get the S2 to S2EX kit, you get everything needed - woofer, crossover. No tweeter as S2 and S2EX have same.
So, if you want to upgrade to the EX, that would be the way I'd go. If you just want to replace the tweeters, you'll need to call Ascend. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you one. I blew one on my S2's awhile ago and was able to get a tweeter.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merch..._Code=UPGRADES
Man, the tweet in that pic... it looks like someone flat out poked some holes in it! I almost had to sniffle a tear back. Is that what they look like when driven into clipping? I've never seen a torn RAAL before.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?
Yeah. I think op might have a leg to stand on here. There's no way it's going to "work perfectly" with such a bad tear in it. I hope the buyer has some way to dispute this purchase or got one hell of a discount for those.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pogre
Eek! "Appears to be torn" is an understatement! My stomach sank for you when I saw the title.
Give them a call. Things are a little upside down over there right now and Dina has been a little slow getting back to me, but was absolutely willing to work with me and I'm sure you guys can get a resolution figured out. Too bad the EX kits don't include a tweeter too. You could not only fix, but upgrade them too.
Just brace yourself. Those tweeters ain't cheap! This is a positive case of you get what you pay for tho. Best sounding tweeters I've heard.
Thats what sucks. The money spent on replacing the tweeters could have been spent for the EX upgrade.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pogre
Man, the tweet in that pic... it looks like someone flat out poked some holes in it! I almost had to sniffle a tear back. Is that what they look like when driven into clipping? I've never seen a torn RAAL before.
I was thinking the same thing and had the same question.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
I was thinking the same thing and had the same question.
Yeah. I'm seeing what look like pinholes, not tears in that ribbon. Whatever happened to those the perpetrator knows good and well what it was.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Thats what sucks. The money spent on replacing the tweeters could have been spent for the EX upgrade.
Is the protective screen in the slot nice and tight still or is it loose or warped in any way? That would indicate the magnet might have grabbed onto something metal and pulled it into the ribbon element. Those magnets are extremely powerful. I know. I tried to measure my towers from the front with a tape measure and it sucked the tape right into the screen. I 'bout shit myself...
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
That's both speakers with the tweeters damaged not just one! We only took a pic of the one. Yeah, it's only speculation as to how they got that way. Like I said the rest of the speakers are in mint condition.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
My guess is amplifier clipping.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Looks almost like the one I blew due to amplifier clipping. Pic attached
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pogre
Is the protective screen in the slot nice and tight still or is it loose or warped in any way? That would indicate the magnet might have grabbed onto something metal and pulled it into the ribbon element. Those magnets are extremely powerful. I know. I tried to measure my towers from the front with a tape measure and it sucked the tape right into the screen. I 'bout shit myself...
I had the same measurement experience and reaction.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack1949
I had the same measurement experience and reaction.
Did it do any damage? My screen is a little warped now and it scraped my tweeter enough to leave a mark. I was considering sending just the tweeter back so Dave could repair it, but he determined it was only cosmetic and would have no effect on performance. Not worth the cost of repair (~$100 plus shipping both ways). I don't hear any difference and the mark is so tiny you really have to get close with a bright light to see it. At first I thought it was a piece of dust.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
I didn't have any damage. Nothing was playing at the time, so maybe I just lucked out.
I didn't even think about the magnets when I stared the measurement, but they quickly came to mind during it. Afterwards I thought "well that was pretty dumb of me".
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jack1949
I didn't have any damage. Nothing was playing at the time, so maybe I just lucked out.
I didn't even think about the magnets when I stared the measurement, but they quickly came to mind during it. Afterwards I thought "well that was pretty dumb of me".
I just met you, but we already have much in common! Here's what happened to mine.
Attachment 1968
Attachment 1969
Dave told me it's only cosmetic and not worth the cost to repair, but damnit all...
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
So whats the deal with these speakers you can't play loud with them? Never heard of tweeters getting blown. Maybe it's better to order them wit the dome?
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
they get plenty loud - just have to make sure the amp has the wattage to get to the sound pressure levels you want. No different than any speaker -- if the amp clips, you risk blowing a tweeter.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
they get plenty loud - just have to make sure the amp has the wattage to get to the sound pressure levels you want. No different than any speaker -- if the amp clips, you risk blowing a tweeter.
Exactly. A combination of not enough power and too much volume will blow any tweeter.
In fact tweeters tend to be the first thing to go when things do go south, whether dome or ribbon. When you exceed an amp's limits and it starts clipping the signal bad things can happen to any speaker.
The Sierra 2s do get plenty loud, but they need good clean power to do it.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
So whats the deal with these speakers you can't play loud with them? Never heard of tweeters getting blown.
Really? I've blown loads of tweeters in my lifetime. Especially in college, trying to play too loud.
In fact, for years I had a set of speakers that had Audax tweeters in them, and I blew the tweeters often enough that one time when I was driving through Madison, I stopped at Madisound and picked up a half-dozen of them so I'd be ready to replace them if I had to. (This is pre-internet.) I think I still had a couple left when I finally got rid of those speakers, but I ended up using most of the replacements.
Quote:
Maybe it's better to order them wit the dome?
The tweeters I used to blow all the time were domes. The problem isn't the tweeters, it's the amp clipping. If your amp never clips, you won't blow a tweeter.
I haven't blown one, dome or otherwise, in ages. Amps are better now, and I have more disposable income to put toward them. I don't generally listen as loud, now, either.
If you're worried about it, decide how loud you want to listen (maximum), your distance from the speakers, look up how efficient your speakers are, and work out how much wattage you need for that volume level (there are calculators for this on the web). Then add at least 20% to that for safety margin, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about blowing a tweeter.
Example: THX "reference level" says you need to hit 105dB for peaks (this is crazy loud, BTW, and I never listen even close to this). But let's say that's your target. Let's say a pair of S2s near the wall, you're 9 feet away. Calculator says 120 wpc, so I'd go for at least 150 wpc. But if you have a 120 wpc amp and try to go to "reference level" loudness, don't be surprised if you end up frying a tweeter. Your midline Dennon 3700 is right around this much power so it'd be chancy.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SunByrne
Really? I've blown loads of tweeters in my lifetime. Especially in college, trying to play too loud.
In fact, for years I had a set of speakers that had Audax tweeters in them, and I blew the tweeters often enough that one time when I was driving through Madison, I stopped at Madisound and picked up a half-dozen of them so I'd be ready to replace them if I had to. (This is pre-internet.) I think I still had a couple left when I finally got rid of those speakers, but I ended up using most of the replacements.
The tweeters I used to blow all the time were domes. The problem isn't the tweeters, it's the amp clipping. If your amp never clips, you won't blow a tweeter.
I haven't blown one, dome or otherwise, in ages. Amps are better now, and I have more disposable income to put toward them. I don't generally listen as loud, now, either.
If you're worried about it, decide how loud you want to listen (maximum), your distance from the speakers, look up how efficient your speakers are, and work out how much wattage you need for that volume level (there are calculators for this on the web). Then add at least 20% to that for safety margin, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about blowing a tweeter.
Example: THX "reference level" says you need to hit 105dB for peaks (this is crazy loud, BTW, and I never listen even close to this). But let's say that's your target. Let's say a pair of S2s near the wall, you're 9 feet away. Calculator says 120 wpc, so I'd go for at least 150 wpc. But if you have a 120 wpc amp and try to go to "reference level" loudness, don't be surprised if you end up frying a tweeter. Your midline Dennon 3700 is right around this much power so it'd be chancy.
I thought about mentioning sensitivity too. The Sierra 2 is an amazing sounding speaker but with 86 dB sensitivity it's going to take more power to hit higher spl than say, a speaker with a more average sensitivity of 88-89 dB.
Just a 3 dB (like 86 to 89 dB) difference in sensitivity represents a doubling of power to hit the same spl.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pogre
I just met you, but we already have much in common! Here's what happened to mine.
Attachment 1968
Attachment 1969
Dave told me it's only cosmetic and not worth the cost to repair, but damnit all...
DANG Pogre, AGAIN! you're really giving us a lesson on what not to do.
sorry to see that really! I just had to throw out a comment to ya.
I an still eyeing the DUO center but i cant get the smile i need from the wife , YET.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
You guys are starting to scare me. I've got a pair of 2EX coming (should arrive tomorrow) and now I'm wondering just how fragile these Raal ribbons really are!
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qman
You guys are starting to scare me. I've got a pair of 2EX coming (should arrive tomorrow) and now I'm wondering just how fragile these Raal ribbons really are!
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.
On the other hand, I dont see a lot of dialogue about other customers blowing ribbons. Certainly can't be a common problem or you'd think you'd hear more about it.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Keep in mind also, those are regular S2's. The EX uses a steeper rolloff to the RAAL which increases its power handling and dynamic ability, so it can take greater power loads.
Still, make sure you have enough clean power to drive them as loudly as you intend to listen.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mag_Neato
Keep in mind also, those are regular S2's. The EX uses a steeper rolloff to the RAAL which increases its power handling and dynamic ability, so it can take greater power loads.
Still, make sure you have enough clean power to drive them as loudly as you intend to listen.
Thanks..that makes me feel a little better! :)
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qman
Thanks..that makes me feel a little better! :)
ill try and copy a quote from Dave:
davef davef is offline
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Default Re: Sierra Ribbon Towers and Safe SPL
Quote Originally Posted by Beave View Post
That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.
Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.
Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.
Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened
post #40 under sierra ribbon towers and safe SPL
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
audiohead
DANG Pogre, AGAIN! you're really giving us a lesson on what not to do.
sorry to see that really! I just had to throw out a comment to ya.
I an still eyeing the DUO center but i cant get the smile i need from the wife , YET.
Tell me about it! I feel like a speaker abuser!
What's telling tho, is when I mention something like this others suddenly come out of the woodwork and and have experienced the same issues! Tho I will point out that both of my issues were more user error than the fault of the speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.
I've never blown a tweeter either, whether dome or ribbon but fried tweeters are a lot more common than you seem to realize. They're usually the first thing to go. Those ribbons can handle high spl, but it has to be clean unclipped power. I really do believe this was a volume control issue with your friend's speakers, not frailty. That is unless someone actually physically poked holes in it, which looks like might have happened.
The tweeter used in the towers is A LOT more robust and can handle 3x the power of the one used in the Sierra 2s. I measured just a hair under 100 dB with my ribbon towers at my seat (15 ft away) and they were barely breaking a sweat. That's incredibly loud, louder than what's safe to listen at for any extended period of time. I repeat tho, it has to be clean unclipped power. I do have a very powerful amplifier.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
audiohead
ill try and copy a quote from Dave:
davef davef is offline
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Default Re: Sierra Ribbon Towers and Safe SPL
Quote Originally Posted by Beave View Post
That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.
Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.
Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.
Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened
post #40 under sierra ribbon towers and safe SPL
That quote seems familiar...
:p
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
I don't think these tweeters need a bad reputation!
I love mine, i have the stereo on all the time now and absolutely love the sound from the towers!
i still am using my Boston Acoustics center and can tell a HUGE difference when the Movies come on! , they sucks compared to the towers.
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Re: Sierra 2 tweeter damage...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MDinno
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.
There is nothing wrong with the RAAL tweeters. The problem here has nothing to do with what kind of tweeter it is.
If your amp clips, you'll blow the tweeter regardless of whether it's a dome or a ribbon.