Speaker Positioning (toe-in)

The Ascend manual recommends that speakers be placed apart .73 times the distance of the midpoint between the speakers to the listening position. The manual also then says that speakers should be toed-in so that the tweeters point directly at the listening position, about 5 or 10 degrees. From my calculations, one would need a 21.6 degree angle to have the tweeter point directly at the listening position.

I’ll lay out how I came to that conclusion below.

Let’s say we sit 10 ft from the midpoint between the speakers. That places the speakers 7.3 ft apart. Divide 7.3 by 2 and add .313 ft (for half the width of the speaker), and we get 3.96 ft. Now we can use Pythagorean theorem to find out the distance between the listening position and the tweeter. That number is 10.76 ft. When we plug these 3 numbers in, the angle of the speaker should be 21.6 degrees.

A 10 degree toe-in angle would put the listening position 22.5 ft away.

Assuming that math is correct (I hope it is because I’ve checked it about 7 times!), which guideline should be followed more literally? Tweeters pointed directly at the listener at 21.6 degrees or a toe-in angle of 5 to 10 degrees?

Thanks!

Clearly I have a little too much time on my hands with the long holiday weekend....

I would start with the 10 degrees, then experiment with increasing the toe in and see what you like better. Another consideration is if you have a wide listening position, like a couch. 10 degrees may just refer to the overall listening area.

I’m right around 10 degrees now, maybe a touch more. Due to aesthetic reasons and room constraints, my speakers are only about 5’ apart, and I sit about 8.5’ away from the midpoint. I’ve experimented with more aggressive toe in and found it enhanced the center image, but the soundstage suffered a bit. My listening position is a 3 seat couch, and the tweeters pretty much point right at either side of the center cushion. This seems to be a good balance between soundstage and center image but also sounds good enough when my wife and I are sitting on the couch together.

I’m curious to hear what Dave recommends as an ideal toe in for a single listener.

What specific speakers do you have? Note the RAAL ribbon tweeters Ascend uses have very wide horizontal dispersion, so varying from theoretical perfect toe-in for any Ascend speakers with ribbons should be less problematic than those with other tweeter

I have the Sierra-2. I almost forget that Ascend makes speakers without RAAL tweeters as well, and that this manual is a general guideline for all Ascend loudspeakers.

All I've read, discussed, heard-about and learned for the past 44 years are that some monitor toe-in for 2-channel stereo is recommended and even desired. For the most part, I agree. As any component (especially speaker systems) were changed and integrated into my home stereo audio systems, I always took time to set toe-ins to achieve maximum soundstage, imaging and debt that my best recordings offered.

However, my latest 2.1 dedicated listening room presented some balancing challenges. It is a small bedroom (used strictly for high end music platback) that has just 90sf of real-estate (9'x10'x11' ceiling). This room comprises a 9ft equipment wall + speakers, listening position on opposite 9ft wall in a 2-seater couch, has a 10ft depth with double window translucent shades on one side and double door closet panels on opposite 10ft wall. Have 6 large framed paintings\prints on the side walls and back listening space. The flooring is berber carpet over cement slab with the walls and ceiling being 1\2" sheet-rock over 1\2" sheet-ed plywood. Overall, the acoustics sound neutral and natural (no detectable reverberation or brightness) and any nulls\peak in playback responses seems to be controlled and minimal in this dedicated "near-field" listening environment.

My Ascend Acoustic Sierra 1 NrT's are (spaced C to C) 5'3" apart and my centered sweet spot listening position is 7'3" away from either Sierra...a near perfect .73 ratio! I quickly discovered that due to very limited room dimensions, regular furniture treatments, surface materials and a quasi near-field set up, I achieved "my" desired music playback characteristics by setting the Sierras straight ahead...no toe-in whatsoever.

After these past 3 years (and some delving into acoustical holographic "Bacch 3-D" program info\data), I recently experimented with fine-tuning room speaker placements. To my surprise and delight, I was able to achieve a significantly better defined and focused soundstage with great height, depth and width (well beyond my room boundaries) by simply "Toeing-OUT" [about 5 degrees] the Sierra 1 NrT's!! With this increase in 3-D sound and Holographic presentation, even the centered Sweet Spot opened up enough for 2-person full stereo focused seating positions!! Any further toe-out started to bloat the imaging UN-naturally and created roll offs in the upper ranges. But, at just 5-degrees, it became jaw dropping Realism!!!

I have not yet looked into formal room treatments, but may need to experiment with that further to find if I can take my listening room to even greater audio-bliss heights!! Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! :cool:

Ted


--------------2.1 Dedicated 9ft X 10ft Stereo Listening Room (Not toed-in or out)--------------
Attachment 1709

-------------------------2.1 Stereo Listening Sofa (2-person)---------------------------------
Attachment 1710

My experience measuring with REW/DL measurements, toe-in angling affects the high frequency response (above 6k) at the listening location because that's where tweeters tend to start becoming directional, this tends to have limited audibility since the main difference is "air."

Generally toe in becomes a necessity when there's a crossover mismatch--the woofer is too large and the crossover isn't low enough, and this causes gaps in the frequency response in the crossover region when the speakers are point directly forward. To me this is a common problem when you have a 1" tweeter crossed over something like a 7" woofer. With the Sierra 1s for example I feel like toe in isn't really necessary because with a small 5" woofer you don't have to worry about a dip in the response in the crossover region.

Depending on your situation it may be good with a little TOE-OUT! I discussed this with Arnie Nudell and he agreed. Especially if your speakers are close together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blutarsky

Depending on your situation it may be good with a little TOE-OUT! I discussed this with Arnie Nudell and he agreed. Especially if your speakers are close together.

---

A little 5 degree Toe-Out certainly was good for my situation!! :o

Ted

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by theophile

I have not yet looked into formal room treatments, but may need to experiment with that further to find if I can take my listening room to even greater audio-bliss heights!! :cool:

Ted

---

FWIW,

Since my January report on "toeing-out" the Sierra NrT's, I did experience another substantial and definitive improvement in my 2-channel capability when I replaced standard RCA interconnects with a CD high resolution RCA set. With these, have gained even more openness, clarity and even further high frequency extension. Thus, re-hearing details and nuances in all of my recordings that I hadn't before!!

In March, took the next logical step and received some GIK 2A Alpha AbFusers 2ft square x 2" deep panel room treatments (absorber & diffusor). However after 2 weeks, no matter where I tried (listening wall, side walls, setup wall), I could not "improve" the live acoustics of my listening room. Primarily, I lost some focus, air and openness in the upper midrange and lower treble regions. Placement behind the Sierra's were the least intrusive to the stereo holographic presentation, but nevertheless a detraction that did nothing to "improve" the live 3D experience, the wide and deep soundstage and strong center focus that my small intimate listening room offers! :D

Ted

With about 2 months of break in time on the new interconnects (orchestral, pipe organ, choral, vocal, piano, night club R&B and jazz genres), the soundstage has grown in size, mid-bass speed, punch and tonality has improved, pinpoint imaging focus has tightened and even dynamics have increased!

Still have the Sierra-1 NrT's toed-out 5 degrees, the power amp passing on the 70hz high pass signal from the pre-amp and have finally settled on optimum room placements. Seems these on-going incremental changes (High Pass, Toe-Out, High Res Interconnect, Room Placement) have really combined to transform the full potential of the "Live Music Delivery" that the AA Sierra-1 NrT Monitors are capable of in a 2.1 stereo presentation! :o

Ted