Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
Just to add, I rarely listen over 85db and my current 12" ported is set to <1/4 volume in order for audyssey to calibrate (I.e. not end up -12db on my marantz). Budget isn't 100% fixed at 1k, but greatly prefer to stay close.
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
I have two F12's and really love them, would highly recommend a pair. Remember that if you order two at once you get a 10% discount as well, helps a bit. Mine are in a 14'x11' room and I run them at half volume on their dials and -3.0 dB on my processor and they are capable of gut busting, room shaking bass, FWIW. They are insanely clear as well, no boominess at all and I don't even have room treatments yet. I've never heard the L series subwoofers, though, so I can't really comment on how they stack up. The main difference is the drivers and I feel a lot more confident in my aluminum drivers than I would in paper cones for theater duty, but since you're listening at lower volumes I doubt it would matter, so the L series would probably be fine.
Do not get two different subwoofers, whatever you get, make them an identical pair, there are even worse headaches than crossovers, they just will not blend correctly. The only way I've seen people make it work is with pairs of different subs, and using one set as a midbass module.
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
My father in law is the lv12r (paper cone vented) and I have the F12. If you are looking for a sub (ideally a pair) I would not hesitate to recommend the L12 based on my listening sessions on my father in laws system. While a different sub, it uses the same paper cone and sounds amazing and digs deep.
While I love my F12, I bought it primarily for the PEQ. Funny thing is, after I set it up....I have never turned on the PEQ. I guess what I am getting at here is that if you are worried about needing the PEQ, I wouldn't.
So in closing ( or TLDR), I am suggesting you get two L12s. I think you will be very pleased.
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
I have had a L12 for a little over a year and I like how it sounds A LOT. I cannot have two systems, so although I use the one I have for both Music and HT, my aim has always been to get it right for Music first.
The L12 is a little (and inexpensive) wonder. My room is 18x14x8 with two large openings into the rest of the house. Typical modern "open floor" layout and yet the L12 rattles the windows with movies and keeps its finesse with Music.
I think you would be even happier with two! :-)
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MJP
Just to add, I rarely listen over 85db and my current 12" ported is set to <1/4 volume in order for audyssey to calibrate (I.e. not end up -12db on my marantz). Budget isn't 100% fixed at 1k, but greatly prefer to stay close.
When you say that you rarely listen over 85dB, does that mean that you rarely listen to the volume set where there are 85 dB peaks? Or do you mean that you rarely listen to where the Marantz is at or above 0 dB, like say +3 dB for example? The two are quite different, especially with movies. If you rarely listen to more than 85 dB peaks, then the F12 or L12 might be enough for you. But, if you are sometimes (but rarely) listening with the volume set at 85 dB, which means that for a movie it is an average of 85 dB, but as much as 105 dB peaks in the 5 or 7 main speakers, and as much as 115 dB peaks for the subwoofer. For those 115 dB peaks the F12 or L12 are probably not going to be able to deliver in your room. If you really luck out and get some room gain between 45 and 70 Hz, those frequencies might get close, but at the other frequencies I don't think you will even be close.
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
Thanks, I mean avg music of <85db. Peaks usually <90. I.e not defending (been there done that in my car audio days). Ocassionally I may crank it up to mid 90s, with peaks typically<105 per be meter.
On a whim I ordered an f15hp and will try to get another in 6 months to a year if budget allows. Reading some reviews it sounded like it has great depth and is still plenty tight. Per this thread I was almost sold on two l12s, it think that would work great here and not, but just worried if I move somewhere with bigger rooms, they may end up too small. The 15 is probably overkill now, but I'm less worried about not having enough latter. Also I need a new end table and the 12 was a bit too small :)
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
I have S2's and bought a single used F12 from ebay. It sounds great but the F12 is only barely noticed.
I have the sub set pretty low as I have downstairs neighbors and I'm not the biggest sub head. But when I first got my S2's I felt the bass was a little lacking compared to my prior speakers so I kind of panicked and bought the sub. But once the S2s broke in, their bass really came alive.
It's now been about 4 months with the S2's, and while I like the F12, sometimes I think I wouldn't have bought it if I had heard the S2's perform the way they do now. But it's kind of a subtle thing when its on - I don't so much as hear it as feel it. So I will probably stand pat with this combination for a a while.
FWIW, I can't see having TWO subs, but then my room isn't all that large and I don't crank my system as much as others might.
Re: Subwoofer for sierra-2
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MJP
Thanks, I mean avg music of <85db. Peaks usually <90. I.e not defending (been there done that in my car audio days). Ocassionally I may crank it up to mid 90s, with peaks typically<105 per be meter.
I am in a similar situation as you. The room I am planning to build is about the size of your room (except I would love to have those 10 foot ceilings, but I can only get about 7.2 foot ceilings) and I listen at about the same levels it sounds like you do as well. I think a F12 would be fine most of the time, but those occasional times when I crank it up is where I will need a F15HP. If it was just music I was listening to, the F12 would be fine even when I crank things up. But, movies can have huge peaks in the LFE channel where I want the F15HPs just to be safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blingleberry
FWIW, I can't see having TWO subs, but then my room isn't all that large and I don't crank my system as much as others might.
The point of getting two subwoofers is not to help it so that you can crank things up much louder than you could with one. In fact with the F12 subwoofer if you are only about 2 meters away you might be able to hit somewhere between 100 dB and 105 dB before compression starts to set in. So what happens if you add another F12 subwoofer in your room? Well you might get another 2 to 3 dB more output if you place it randomly in the room. If you place it right next to (or on top of) the other F12 then you may get another 5 to 6 dB output.
But wait... the F15HP has about another 5 dB more output than the F12. So this isn't the most cost effective way to get louder bass from the subwoofers, since two F12s cost more than one F15HP. The idea is that with two subwoofers you can place them across the room from one another and the interaction between the two will begin to reduce the huge peaks and dips caused by the room. Furthermore, it will begin to make it so that each seat in your room will have a similar frequency response. If you have a similar frequency response in each seat you can then use EQ to flatten out the frequency response and each seat will have close to a flat frequency response. With one subwoofer if you measure the subwoofer in one seat and try to EQ it flat for that seat, you mess up the frequency response in most other places. In fact, you could have some big 30 to 40 dB differences in some frequencies. Some frequencies could be inaudible, yet others could cause you to jump for the remote to turn down the volume and all of this could happen while you are listening to the same passage of music.
If you have a sealed rectangular room, then typically two subwoofers will give you a huge difference in seat to seat consistency over one subwoofer and four will give you a slight improvement from there. If your room is not a sealed rectangular shape, then you can still use multiple subwoofers to improve the bass similarly, but it is less predictable how many to use and where to place them in the room. But, again four will not again be much louder than two. The point is to get the bass in each seat to be the same, or very close to it. I'm planning a home theater with two rows of seats. I will also listen to music in that room. Because the room is on the smaller side, the only placement options for subwoofers are the corners. Because I also want to get the bass to be as good as it possibly can be, I planning on getting four subwoofers, one for each corner. So regardless of which seat I end up sitting in, the bass should be excellent. If I had to chose the seat I would sit in, of course pick the sweet spot with the best imaging and soundstage, but going with multiple subwoofers improves the bass in that seat as well, since the nulls the big dips aren't as large as they were before. Often EQ can't fix nulls anyways, but multiple subwoofers can sometimes fix them, or at least minimize how bad they are.
