Hello and Advice Requested

Hi, I am a musician and director of music at a church in the Houston, TX area. I, at one time, practiced law and was fortunate enough to build a decent two channel system based around the BEL 1001 MKV power amp and a Magnepan 1.6, with Vandersteen 2WQ sub. Then I married a beautiful lady whose dad was one of the on air engineers for the local NBC affiliate and TV and home theater immediately became a part of my life.

Now, we have added a child and I seldom get to just sit and revel in audiophile bliss. I recently did add a DAC and mac mini music server for hi rez flac and DSD for those instances I get to listen. All of this stuff is in a really convoluted, messy set up in our living room. Magnepans, Vandersteen, BEL1001, Onkyo receiver, DirecTV box, Richard Gray 400 Pro, Mac, DAC....It is a mess. I think I will soon be able to update and modernize the whole set up. I have enjoyed this forum immensely as I have done research for the new system and before I ask my questions, I will commend this entire community for its spirit of helpfulness, patience, joy for audio and its lack of the negative, hostility that seems to infect so many online communities...Well Done.

Here is what I have on my plate:
1. Front end: Deciding between doing something like the Pioneer Elite SC-99 or the Marantz 7702 Mk2. If I go with the Marantz, I may buy some more BEL 1001s for separate power or maybe even some Outlaw 2200s...thoughts? Anyone with experience using a HT front end for 2 channel DAC critical listening?
2. Finding surround connectivity options (We have a vaulted ceiling with no crawl space to run speaker cable from front end.)
3. Speakers under consideration:
- Pioneer Elite Atmos enabled Andrew Jones designed system
- Tekton Lore Reference 5.0
- Ascend system that cherry picks best speaker for application. RAAL Tower with Horizon? HTM or CBM for surrounds?
4. Subs under consideration:
- Hsu VTF-15H Mk2
- Rhythmik 15 (no idea which)
- Tekton Enzo or Cinema Sub
- I am a little confused what the real world difference would be between an “audiophile” sub and a HT sub would be…

I would really like some input/insight. No comment or observation is too detailed or simple. Can I really have good two channel AND HT performance without emptying my savings?
How much consideration should I give to Atmos? I understand that there is not that much out now, but I will be living with system for the next 10-15 years.
Lastly, is there any way to get descent, stable wireless connectivity where I can’t run a wire?

The room is of large volume because the entire downstairs area is an open floor plan. The is a relatively open area that is roughly 25' x 58'. The front is the entry/dining area. The kitchen is in the middle with large counter and triple wide opening into the living area. The actual living/HT space is about 25' deep x 18' wide. The ceiling is sloped and fairly high 10' on two sides sloping up to almost 20'.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!

Stan

You should contact Dave directly for his thoughts, he's extremely helpful and honest. You won't regret it.

As for my two cents, you've got a lot of things to consider and you have certainly done your research in the same places I did on my journey to my setup. I too was really enamored with Tekton Design for a while, but after investigating I just couldn't take the plunge. Ascend's speakers have complex crossovers that correct for phase and time alignment, producing measurably incredible speakers that are intensely accurate and smooth at the same time. Tekton uses only a capacitor as a high pass filter to their tweeter, so I have read many complaints of them being imprecise and inaccurate. They are engineered for dynamics, not to be true to the source. They only list a couple of specs, and no +/- dB rating, whereas Ascend gives you tons of measurements and frequency response graphs with your towers. You also get bamboo cabinets instead of lightly braced wood cabinets.

Tekton and HSU subs are really, really big and consume a lot of power. They're really easy to overdrive. Rythmik subs have servo technology that makes them never sound flubby or distorted like other subs. Rythmik really is something else when you sit down and compare a sub cranked up. Just go with whatever fits your budget, you'll be happy. I have two F12's and they fill my large room with intense, tight bass. Don't let the "audiophile" sub stuff fool you, they're all just trying to say they sound better than other subs out there.

If you have a vaulted ceiling, atmos enabled speakers won'd do anything for you. They need a flat ceiling to reflect sound off of. It won't sound right without that flat ceiling.

I have a Marantz AV7701 connected to an Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 and I'm really, really happy with it right now. Sounds pretty fantastic. If I was to upgrade, I'd get a system with better room correction, but that is way down the road. The 7702 gives you Atmos, so if you want that down the road when you have a room where you can mount speakers in the ceiling, then get that. I'm sure you'd be really happy with the outlaw amps with it as well.

I have the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters and yes, you really can have amazing two channel AND HT performance. It's intense and beautiful. I couldn't be happier, and I didn't empty my savings at all.

I think if you started off with the Sierra Towers and Horizon Center and a few HTM 200 SE's for surrounds you'd be incredibly happy. When you have a different room and/or want to add Atmost speakers, buy some more HTM 200 SE's and another amp and there ya go. Or, take a big plunge and buy Sierra Sats that are coming out soon, but those are going to be a lot more than the HTM 200 SE's.

Thanks Sludgeogre. I think at this point I have begun ruling out the Lores. The reason the Elite speakers are even in consideration is purely from a budget situation. I am wondering if I have some other things to accomplish around the house if the Andrew Jones designed Elites are a special enough speaker to justify spending a little less and upping the level in other areas.

I am wondering whether I should do the vented or sealed sub(s)?

If you want to go for a more budget friendly setup, maybe go with Andrew Jones' new ELAC speakers instead of the Atmos enabled Pioneer ones. Those would be more sensible.

They generally say to go with vented for HT primary use and sealed for music primary usage. I went with dual sealed as I just enjoy the extreme extension that sealed subs provide. Since you have a large area and you're going with one sub, I'd say go with a vented sub.

The Ascend CBM-170SE's and CMT-340SE's would be better options than the ELACs.

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Originally Posted by curtis

The Ascend CBM-170SE's and CMT-340SE's would be better options than the ELACs.

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Indeed, my bad, was just sticking with Andrew Jones for some reason. I have heard his budget Pioneer speakers and they are indeed fantastic, but not nearly as accurate, smooth, and impactful as the Ascend gear.

OK, thank you, that is valuable insight. I actually started my Ascend search with he CMT/CBM in mind, then I just kept reading. I am probably dealing with two basic issues here:
1. I have been listening to a really strong combination of speakers and amp and I am afraid of what I may be giving up, and
2. I have champagne taste and a church worker pocketbook.

That is just something I guess I have to figure out on my end.

I guess I have two options:
1. Start with the CMT/CBM system, supplemented with Rythmik subs and upgrade the LCR later to RAAL tower/horizon, (then slide the CMT up to a flex room with second TV) or
2. Forget about 3.1 or 5.1 at the moment and do a pair of RAAL towers, then add pieces as I go...

What thoughts do you have about those options, is there a third I am missing?

As a Sierra Tower owner, I'm a bit biased, and I would recommend picking up the towers and adding a Horizon and Sierra Sats when you can afford them, but that's just me :)

The towers are insanely good at everything, and I'm sure you'll be extremely happy with them as just a stereo pair until you can fill out your 5.1 set. I upgraded to my Towers from Magnepan Tympani 1D speakers, made in 1972. I did love those speakers, they have a huge soundstage and a really lush, sweet sound, but they lacked dynamic punch. My Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters keep me enthralled with rich mids and insane impact. It's a night and day difference for me.

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Originally Posted by curtis

The Ascend CBM-170SE's and CMT-340SE's would be better options than the ELACs.

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Completely agree - there is so much hype about the B5's and B6, but I need to state that other than the build quality (which is fantastic at this price point), I was not impressed by their performance, not even the slightest bit. I have much respect for Andrew Jones, some of you know might know that Jones was lead engineer on what is likely my favorite speaker, but these speakers were clearly designed for that typical mass market sound (in that regard they are very good) - but these are not what I would consider to be detailed speakers...

You guys rock. OK, I am down to this:

1. I have given up on doing a pre/pro with separates, I just don't have the cabinet space. I am down to wither the Denon AVR-X7200WA, Marantz SR7010 or I have not yet ruled out the Pioneer Elite SC-99. What do the esteemed wisemen, er people, on this forum think about those options?

2. I am still torn on whether to start with RAAL towers only or go with CBM/CMT 5.0 with dual Rythmiks to establish multichannel audio, then switch out the CMTs later for RAAL towers and RAAL horizon. I would really like Dave's input on this one...

Personally I would go with the Denon AVR-X7200WA. It has a great AKM DAC, Audyssey XT32, and discrete amps. Just my opinion based on what little I have heard. All three are very reputable brands and models, so you shouldn't be disappointed with any of them, but it looks like the Denon has the most value and highest quality parts.

With your focus on 2-channel in the past, I think you should start with the RAAL Towers first.

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Originally Posted by curtis

With your focus on 2-channel in the past, I think you should start with the RAAL Towers first.

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Agreed!

OK point taken. If you haven't figured out yet, I do a lot of "figuring"...I am a maximizer, which is good when you are an audiophile that works for a church, you have to make every penny count. Here is what I am thinking about based on your recommendations:

How important is the Denon front end piece? We are basically talking about enough money to fund the Horizon, the HTMs or CBMs and at least one sub. Rather than running all of the video through a 4k receiver and really simplify the system, I could run separate HDMIs from all my sources to the 4K TV and use my ONKYO TX-NR807 as audio central and use the TV as video central. So, my power, DACs and video processing is not optimized, but I would have all the speakers.

Where do the priorities lie?

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Originally Posted by stanfnelson

OK point taken. If you haven't figured out yet, I do a lot of "figuring"...I am a maximizer, which is good when you are an audiophile that works for a church, you have to make every penny count. Here is what I am thinking about based on your recommendations:

How important is the Denon front end piece? We are basically talking about enough money to fund the Horizon, the HTMs or CBMs and at least one sub. Rather than running all of the video through a 4k receiver and really simplify the system, I could run separate HDMIs from all my sources to the 4K TV and use my ONKYO TX-NR807 as audio central and use the TV as video central. So, my power, DACs and video processing is not optimized, but I would have all the speakers.

Where do the priorities lie?

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The priority is always the speakers first. I think it is totally fine to use your current receiver for amplification and use your TV as the switch if you are OK with doing that. You'll have plenty of power, so you should be good to go.

Also realize that unless the source you're using is 4K, it doesn't matter if you use the receiver or not. There isn't a lot of 4K content besides a few things on Netflix and the new UHD Blu Rays. Other than that, everything is still 1080P, so using your current receiver, it would look exactly the same. The only time you'd need to bypass the receiver is if you're actually watching 4K content.

Right. We already have a 4K Genie. We have some 4k content on the Mac.

I think I am going to pass on the Denon at the moment and see what I can swing in speakers alone...

The RAAL towers are magnificent speakers. They are a bit out of reach for this father of 3 college students, and I ended up with Sierra 2s and a Rythmik F12SE sub.

When my kids graduate, they'll get a modest present. I however will get a new set of RAAL towers, and build out a whole new HT set up, all Ascend. I won't mind a bit that it will be 5.1, and start with a 15 year old Denon AV Receiver.

As long as I can remember, the adage "start with the speakers" has been around and well supported. Nowadays, a well designed listening space is often ranked up there with speakers in terms of importance.

I agree. I am just a little apprehensive because I have rolled different amps through my system, including some highly rated AVRs. The difference between virtually anything else was startling. The precision and clarity of the BEL was truly night and day. Now, I suspect it, even at a modest 50w/ch into 8 ohms is much more capable of driving the 4ohm maggies. I am hoping I have a different experience with the Ascends.

Funny thing is, I don't have the same experience with the Maggie center. It sounds more or less fine with most other power sources.

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Originally Posted by stanfnelson

I agree. I am just a little apprehensive because I have rolled different amps through my system, including some highly rated AVRs. The difference between virtually anything else was startling. The precision and clarity of the BEL was truly night and day. Now, I suspect it, even at a modest 50w/ch into 8 ohms is much more capable of driving the 4ohm maggies. I am hoping I have a different experience with the Ascends.

Funny thing is, I don't have the same experience with the Maggie center. It sounds more or less fine with most other power sources.

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Maggies are a whole different story with amps because they need something that can grab on to a stable 4 ohm load with real power. Most AVRs really don't cut it, especially when they're rated at two channels most of the time. My Tympani 1D's were terrible with 105 watts, and then 300 watts even, but once I bi-amped them with 600 watts per channel, WOW! Amazing difference. Totally night and day.

However, even when amped to their best, my Ascend towers beat the pants off of my old Maggies, and they don't need nearly as much power.

I think the Maggie Center isn't as big of a difference because there is so little radiating area when compared to the mains panels, so they just don't need as beefy of a power amp to make them sing.