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View Full Version : Placement of my new 340c - what would you do?



mulveling
04-11-2005, 11:18 AM
Hi all,
I've got a 340c and pair of 170's due for delivery today, to complement my existing setup: A pair of 340m's, a Denon AVR-3805, a Denon DVD-2910, and a Sony 34" widescreen set.

Pretty excited, but I'm concerned about my placement options for the 340c. The Sony monitor, which lacks anything remotely resembling a flat top, is not going to easily accomodate a 340 on top of it. My easiest option is to place it on the top shelf of my TV stand, which will barely accomodate its height. The top shelf only sits 11.25" off the ground (hald the height of a pedestal stand). My ears are 36" off the ground in the listening position about 9'-10' away. I will only be able to angle it up a little, and even then the top metal lip of the stand will begin to overlap the front speaker baffle - should I still angle it up in that case? At least the stand is open back so no problems with porting. Still, will this sound reasonable? Better than a phantom center?

I just noticed that the 340c on a pedestal stand would just barely (exactly, actually) fit under the bottom edge of the monitor's screen glass, so I guess I could order another stand and place it in front of the screen - though it would look ugly.

Here's a link to a pic of my setup as it currently stands (yep, the room is pretty horrible acoustically):
http://photo.head-fi.org/showphoto.php?photo=2236&size=big&sort=1&cat=500

Advice? What would you do?

Quinn
04-11-2005, 11:24 AM
Maybe one of these-

http://www.racksandstands.com/prods/Sanus/TVSb-and-TVSc/Center-Channel-Speaker-Stands/0C276/0PSY0054.htm

chas
04-11-2005, 12:38 PM
I've seen those little tv top stands - they're kinda slick.

I have noticed that the current crop of Sony's all seem to have small curved tops that are very unfriendly for center speakers. With the boom in home theater you'd think they would keep the center speaker in mind when designing cabinets!

Good picture of the 340's by the way. You have a nice clean, modern looking set-up!

metalaaron
04-11-2005, 04:30 PM
will the 340 fit on the middle shelf? that's probably what i plan to do when i get a similar tv. the dvd player and cable receiver will stack fine, and the 3805 will fit on either side.

GaryB
04-11-2005, 06:34 PM
Not to put words in his mouth, but I think by "top shelf", mulveling actually means the middle shelf ("11.25" off the ground"). Probably not ideal - the 340c may sound a little "chesty" in this position so close to the floor - I'd ask Dave F.'s advice.

Siting a relatively large, heavy center channel speaker such as the CMT-340c is a real problem with many modern microdisplay RPTVs (DLP, LCD, etc.), even when using one of the available accessory shelves, such as the B-tech BT14 (http://www.hi-fidelity.com/mounting.htm#bt14). The flimsy cabinets just don't seem to be made to support the weight.

It would be so easy for the manufacturers to address this issue by reinforcing their cabinets and making optional custom-designed center-channel shelves available. I have no idea why they don't do this... :confused:

curtis
04-11-2005, 07:20 PM
It would be so easy for the manufacturers to address this issue by reinforcing their cabinets and making optional custom-designed center-channel shelves available. I have no idea why they don't do this... :confused:
My Epson has one, and I think some of the new Samsungs have them too.

metalaaron
04-11-2005, 10:09 PM
hmm, yeah, perhaps 11.25 is too low? now i'm wondering if my stand (three shelves) w/ middle shelf @ ~ 16" will work w/ the center in the middle in the future?

it may be best to find a good mount above the tv. seems like some decent ones are available. luckily the 340 doesn't weigh 50lbs. i remember one user who hung his speakers from the ceiling. aha - i found it ...

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=364457

mulveling
04-11-2005, 11:46 PM
Thanks for all the replies so far!
Those TV-top mounts had me excited for a second, but after re-examining the top of my TV I'm not really sure. Over 90% of the surface is *really* flimsy (I mean: poke it with your little finger and it bends flimsy), it's an awful shape, and I'm not confident any mount design will sturdily hold the 20+ lbs of the 340c in those conditions. GaryB is right - the TV manufacturers really should design for this...

Yep, I had planned on using my TV stand's 11.5" high middle shelf, and for lack of better materials that's what I'll have to do at the moment. A separate center stand may well be worth looking into: 16.5" - 18" would be ideal. Though, it would place the center awfully close to my listening position (the TV is already pretty close to the wall and I need that little bit of space back there).

Anyways, now that it's on the shelf I've got another problem: in order to angle it up a few degrees, I have to move it back about 2" behind the top metal lip of the frame. Additionally, in this configuration the top lip actually overlaps the 340's front surface by 1". I could almost eliminate the overlap by not angling - or I could try to dampen reflections off of the lip with some felt. Which would be better? (Edit: For this configuration I calculated my 340c tweeter is at a vertical angle of 7.6 degrees to seated ear-level with angling; 11.6 without)

Ick - I hate making compromises in audio (and video) :(

Cargo
04-12-2005, 06:11 AM
I have a similar setup. I have a DLP tv on top of a stand and my center channel sits on the shelf below the tv approximately 12-14 inches off the floor. We sit about 11 feet from the tv and the sound has not been effected in a way that is noticable to myself or my wife. Before I got the DLP, I had a smaller tv in an entertainment center with the center channel on top of the piece of furniture, maybe a foot and a half above the tv. The center channel sound was much improved when the new setup was introduced and the center channel sat much lower to the floor.

Another option would be to mount a couple of brackets and a piece of shelving on the wall behind and just above the tv. In my opinion, it would sound better on the shelf below the tv.
Good luck.

chas
04-12-2005, 06:20 AM
I have seen pics of some that mounted them above the televsion with a small TV wall mount.

davef
04-12-2005, 07:23 PM
Hi Guys,

Here is what I did in my home using a TV bracket I came across. This is the PERFECT center channel bracket for the CMT-340c. The bracket is rated at over 70lbs and angles the speaker downward at a perfect 7 degs. It is extremely secure and easy to mount and adjust. You can adjust the vertical angle (0 to 7 degrees) and adjust the horizontal angle if needed.

The front of the speaker will be approx 22" from the wall behind it. From my couch and looking at an upward angle, everything is hidden and it looks as if the speaker is floating.

If there is demand for these I will stock them for purchases.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/CenterChannelBracket003.jpg

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/CenterChannelBracket001.jpg

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/CenterChannelBracket004.jpg

Lou-the-dog
04-12-2005, 07:31 PM
I LIKE that!

Randy

metalaaron
04-12-2005, 08:59 PM
bookmarked. dave, mark me down for one please. ;)

DavidD
04-12-2005, 10:49 PM
That looks great. Something like that may well overcome some buyer's inertia. I worry about center channel placement.

curtis
04-12-2005, 11:23 PM
I think that would work perfect for many people! I know it would for me if my TV didn't have a built in shelf.

Hmmmm....DaveF doesn't have an Ascend logo on his center channel....hehehe :)

Cargo
04-13-2005, 06:39 AM
Are there any issues with placing the speaker this close to the wall since it is ported in the rear?

curtis
04-13-2005, 07:47 AM
Are there any issues with placing the speaker this close to the wall since it is ported in the rear?
Cargo....in case you didn't know, davef is the owner and designer of Ascend Acoustics speakers. That said, I don't think he would put a speaker where it shouldn't be. :)

Lee Bailey
04-13-2005, 10:00 AM
It looks to me that the speaker now doesn't even go past the TV screen. Isn't that creating any problems?

davef
04-13-2005, 03:08 PM
Some excellent questions....


Are there any issues with placing the speaker this close to the wall since it is ported in the rear?

None whatsoever... The bracket is 21 3/4" in total length from the wall behind it. The rear baffle of the speaker is 14.25" from the wall. This is more than enough clearance.


http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/CenterBracketDimensions.gif




It looks to me that the speaker now doesn't even go past the TV screen. Isn't that creating any problems?

Good eyes Lee :D ... Actually, I position the tv so that it is almost exactly flush with the front of the speaker (measures best when the speaker extends about 1" past the TV, buy my wife thinks it looks best when it is flush).

My TV (like most DLP, DILA, Plasma or LCD on stand) is less than 17" deep. This gives me plenty of room for optimal positioning.

The TV extends past the speaker in the pictures because I moved the TV forward so I could get behind and take a few pictures. :o




Hmmmm....DaveF doesn't have an Ascend logo on his center channel....hehehe

Curtis.... nothing gets past you, does it :p

No logo.. no labels and not even a crossover in that unit. My personal 340 system is at the office this week undergoing some much needed refurbishing. My future speaker builder and his friends did quite a job on daddy's speaker cabinets. I figure, better that they pretend to "fix" the speakers then the TV :eek:

Hope this info helps out!

dae3dae3
04-13-2005, 04:01 PM
If the designer and owner of a speaker company still has to keep WAF in mind for the home theatre I guess I shouldn't feel too whipped for worrying about it. :D

davef
04-13-2005, 04:09 PM
If the designer and owner of a speaker company still has to keep WAF in mind for the home theatre I guess I shouldn't feel too whipped for worrying about it. :D

Ha.. are you kidding me? :D The "happier" I keep the wife, the more time I am "allowed" to spend working.... which (trust me on this one).. is good for all of you ;)

jimsiff
04-13-2005, 04:25 PM
I like the idea of using a TV mount for the center. That would work in my current room, but my current room is likely only temporary. If/when I move the HT downstairs, I won't be able to use a TV mount, and I don't want to take a step backwards in SQ. :D Currently, my 340 is on a shelf below my TV, and while not ideal, I can live with it. If I decide not to move the HT, I will look at a TV mount.

jeh
04-13-2005, 07:15 PM
does the center sound better being slightly higher than the front left and right compared to being slightly lower if it were on a floor stand?

bikeman
04-13-2005, 07:50 PM
does the center sound better being slightly higher than the front left and right compared to being slightly lower if it were on a floor stand?

I don't think this has a yes or no anwser. The room has too much influence to say that one is inherently better than the other.

David

mulveling
04-13-2005, 07:58 PM
Hi all,

Not to take away from the cool new center stand discussion ;), but I finally got 5.1 all wired up. Tonight I played around with some discs, and I've decided that I like the the 340m phantom center better than the 340c on that 11.25" shelf - provided I sit dead center. The phantom image collapses rapidly as I move off center, but then I almost always sit center. With the low center, even angled up a bit, it's obvious vocals are coming from below the TV, and they don't sound as quite as "pure" as in 2.1 or 4.1 mode.

Anyways, this is my first foray into surround sound so I'll be playing around with things the next few days, but here are my inital thoughts so far:

- Wow, the surround channel effects are very subtle (yep, I calibrated via Avia). Not being used to it, I found the effects occasionally drew my attention away from the screen somewhat (did something fall off my shelf?). As a result, 2.1 provided the most immersive experience tonight. It could be the disc I used (Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex Vol. 1) or my speaker placement.
- Wow, the front 340m's + Hsu by themselves do a fantastic job of imaging and filling the room with glorious sound. I am more and more impressed by the 340m/Hsu as I finish tweaking their setup. Not at all upset about my center channel problems when I can get 2.1 or 4.1 that sounds this good. Now I'm wondering if I could do even better for the 340m's with something like a pair of the Outlaw Audio monoblocks...heh, and I had just upgraded my receiver, too.
- DLPII sounds terrible - to these ears, on the one 2.0 disc I tried, in my setup. The center channel got way too much signal to render - the result sounded 90% mono.

I could try that cool wall mount, but I'm not yet convinced it would beat my phantom center when seated at the sweet spot - I don't want to hear vocals above the TV, either.

curtis
04-13-2005, 08:12 PM
Great stuff!

Myself, I am not a big fan of phantom center, although I have not played with it much. My Parents are running that way now, and dialog is not near as good as my place. Have you tried tilting the center channel towards your listening position?

I agree with DPLII.....I enjoy two channel music the way it is was meant....well 2.1. :)

DaveF's center channel mount would work perfect for me if my TV didn't have a shelf.....then again, my walls are plaster, so I am not sure I could actually mount it.

Lee Bailey
04-13-2005, 11:13 PM
Even plaster walls have to have studs behind them! The trick is having a wall stud right where you need it.

Eddie Horton
04-14-2005, 05:11 AM
I have 3 Outlaw Monoblocks running my front 3 340's. At sane volume, I really can't tell much difference between them and my Yamaha HTR-5790. The only reason I have them is because they will soon be going into a dedicated theater, and I want to be able to take it to the n'th degree if I want to. They are also a great way to get into separates, because you don't have to plunk down a couple of G's on a multi-channel amp all at once. Last, but not least, a big stack of 'em looks cool in an equipment rack!! Not that any of us purists care about such juvenile things.......yeah, right.

mulveling
04-14-2005, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the monoblock impressions, Eddie. The loudest I go is -11 or 12db below reference level (73db on Avia test tones w/RS spl meter), which admittedy is pretty loud. Is this what you'd consider a sane listening volume? :) I find the Ascends really start to open up and sound wonderful at around this volume level.

I played with surround positioning tonight and they indeed sound much better off to the sides, like Dolby recommends. When I had them in the back they sounded way too detached from the frontal soundstage - now the integration is much much, better. It's an enjoyable effect, though I think there is still room for improvement. For starters, they may not be high or distant enough - tweeters are only 1 foot above my head. I'm still using a phantom center for now. Anyways, the important thing is that tonight's DVD viewing was truly enjoyable :)

As a little background, I'm coming from the unusual (crazy?), little know world of hi-end headphones. My 'cans are the top-rated Joe Grado HP1000 and Sennheiser HD650 (each of which can cost more than a pair of 340m's, lol), and while these headphones win it for CD's with their almost unlimited refinement, accuracy, liquidity, and detail articulation (not to mention freedom from my nasty room effects), the Ascends/Hsu clearly rule for movies. Very happy with both of my setups, and especially impressed with the value of the Ascends - I haven't heard too many surround setups (I'm not counting HTIB jobbies), but this one is easily the best so far.

metalaaron
04-15-2005, 08:53 AM
wow, i've never gone above -23db on my 3805 w/ Ascends. my ears are pretty sensitive and i prefer moderate volume levels. you must have spent a lot of time with those loud headphones on. ;) there is a guy at work who talks really loud and i constantly have to ask him to lower his decibel level. ;)

it sounds like you're close to finding the surround positions you like. remember to experiment with the distance setting.

davef
04-21-2005, 08:11 PM
I am happy to say that the center channel bracket I mentioned in this thread is now in stock.

Bracket = $50 + $8.00 domestic ground shipping. Give us a call if you wish to order one. I hope to have these listed on the website sometime soon.

I am going to try and create a new "sticky" thread with bits and pieces of this thread.

Lou-the-dog
04-21-2005, 08:31 PM
An excellent solution that compliments the 340's nicely...and hey...a reasonable price too!

Randy