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Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 09:47 AM
You can read the events leading up to this here...
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=851

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646a.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646b.jpg

More to come...http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/demon.gif

Mag_Neato
04-07-2005, 10:18 AM
Hey.....what's with the water heater next to the 170's? :D

Holy shi.....take mushrooms Batman!!

GaryB
04-07-2005, 10:18 AM
Don't make us wait too long! ;)

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 11:41 AM
I can't use the same near-field position between my left surround and couch due to the shear height of the 1646+... it interferes with the SL output! http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/roflmao.gif

I'm going to try it between the center channel and right main.

With the BFD in bypass mode I ran a few sine waves with the 1646+ (w/one port plugged in 12Hz mode) calibrated to 70dB with the mains...
Note that these are UNMODIFIED readings, no RS SPL fudge factors!

75dB @ 10Hz
87dB @ 15Hz

HOLY LOW FREQUENCY BATMAN! SECURE THE HATCHES!

Once the peaks are knocked down, and the sub rematched to the mains, these figures should be even higher! I had readings (albeit much lower) down into the single digits! I'd also like to note that the sub seems much less stressed than the PB10-ISD did in this frequency range.

I'm going to calibrate the sub w/BFD in a couple hours, I should have a final FR chart up tonight with some comments.

curtis
04-07-2005, 11:49 AM
:D

Like a kid in a candy store!

bikeman
04-07-2005, 11:53 AM
:eek:

Chances of me putting that in my wife's livingroom are none and less than none. Enjoy it Nicholas. I'm jealous.

David

jimsiff
04-07-2005, 02:57 PM
Damn that's a tall sub. :eek: I bet it sounds great. Like Bikeman, the WAF factor for that sub in my house is ZERO. I'd never get away with that. I had a hard enough time when my wife saw the VTF-3. :D

GaryB
04-07-2005, 04:01 PM
When I was considering getting one of the SVS cylinders last fall, my wife was initially resistant to the idea, but, over time, seemed to become more and more accepting. When I finally decided on the PB10, she was somewhat disappointed that we weren't going to have an interesting-looking cylinder tucked in the corner of our family room.

I guess if and when I decide to upgrade to something like the PC-Ultra, I won't have to do much arm-twisting after all - as long as she doesn't know the price... :eek:

dae3dae3
04-07-2005, 04:13 PM
Like I said in that other forum:

Don't get evicted. :p

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 04:51 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646c.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646pfr.JPG

Yup, she's friggen huge. It looks even bigger in real life. I could fit one of my CBM-170s + it's 30" stand inside one of these no prob'.
(Also note my sexy widescreen 1080p 13" display mounted on an extra 30" stand). Yes, yes, the plasma/front projector is next.

Anyhoo, this is my initial frequency response with the BFD in bypass (modified using RS SPL meter fudge factors). I played with phase for awhile (which did little) and found this to be the easiest curve for me to hit with the BFD P-EQ. My attack strategy is going to be to place a nice n' smooth decline from 87dB at 30Hz to roughly 83dB at 90Hz. I'll be left with a slight 2-3dB null from ~90Hz to 103Hz. Then I'll put an aggressive cut in after that to battle the 105Hz to 120Hz peak (to eliminate whatever oomph if any that the sub is contributing in that range). Then the sub will get turned up a few dB.

Please note the 97dB peak at 10Hz... http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/roflmao.gif

Off to the BFD...

bikeman
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Do you retest after each filter? I found that I had to. Once I changed one peak, it changed everything down stream to some degree.
I'm going to show this thread to my wife over the weekend. I want to see what kind of response I get to your pictures. :D

David

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 06:58 PM
Yeah I test after each filter as it usually affects the frequencies above and below the filter frequency depending on bandwidth/gain.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

I decided to take a break from calibrating the BFD/1646+ and threw some DVDs in. Started with "The Incredibles". Please note the following...

1. BFD is in bypass.
2. Speakers are crossed over with sub at 80Hz.
3. Gain on sub is at 50%.
4. Pre/pro sub level is at +2.
5. Master volume is at -15.

I believe the sub is bottoming out. During the rocket lift-off scene where dash is in the blast tunnel the sub really gets going (shaking the light fixtures and pressing my eyeballs in kind of get-goin') and then I heard 2 or 3 clacks coming from the sub. These weren't the rocket clacks that come from the main speakers either. I tried it 3 times, and it occured 2 out of the 3 times.

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 07:08 PM
This also occurs on Disc 2 in the bonus short "Jack Jack Attack" where Jack Jack burst into flames after being shown the campfire flashcard.

I'm shutting it down until I speak with SVS. :(

GaryB
04-07-2005, 07:14 PM
It is bottoming. The risk of doing so is much higher when using the 12 Hz tune as opposed to the native 16 Hz tune. Ron or Tom will readily confirm this.

I know you're turned on by strong response to 10 Hz in your room, but you're "cutting off your nose to spite your face". I strongly suggest giving up 4 Hz on the bottom end - you'll still have strong output in your room to 13-14 Hz - and changing back to the native tune for the 16-46. You'll have 2-3 dB higher output at all frequencies above 16 Hz, and much less risk of bottoming with loud infrasonic material.

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 07:29 PM
Well if thats the truth then thats just plain lame. If you can't run it in 12Hz mode without bottoming then whats the point? They might as well just not include those port plugs with the 16-46 model and not lead you on about a 12Hz mode.

I'm a wee-bit upset right now after dumping $900 + initial shipping for the PB10-ISD, close to $1k in total for a sub that bottoms out. I'll try it tomorrow in 16Hz mode, can't crank it up much now, it's 10:30pm here.

*calming down*... :mad: :( :confused:

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 07:45 PM
Swapped eMail with Ron from SVS. He said that it's possible to bottom it out in 12Hz mode with one port plugged.

I'm going to try it in 16Hz mode with all ports unplugged tomorrow. It's getting too late here to crank it up much (almost 11pm).

I am still miffed that I can't run it in 12Hz mode without bottoming though. Kind of a pointless feature if you can't use it safely... :rolleyes:

This thing definetly belts out some serious infrasonic bass. I'll see what it can do with infrasonics tomorrow in 16Hz mode.

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 08:11 PM
I just removed the plug from the port (easier said than done, they go in alot easier :D) and reset the 1646+ for 16Hz mode. I'll recheck the FR curve tomorrow. Atleast I didn't get too deep into creating filters with the BFD... :p

DavidD
04-07-2005, 09:38 PM
Don't be too hard on the sub. Unless they have some sort of limiter, which this sub doesn't, most (if not all) subs can be bottomed out if the level is high enough. I can think of three basic solutions in you case - either reduce the sub level relative to the other speakers, raise the tuning (although it still may be possible to bottom it - just more difficult), or buy a second sub. The last option is the one chosen by many people who have more money than I do...

JohnnyCasaba
04-07-2005, 09:41 PM
I guess Peter Marcks was really trying to be helpful in this thread from AVS. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=526972&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Nicholas, great reading as always, keep it coming and I hope this one will be the sub for you.

metalaaron
04-08-2005, 05:44 AM
i agree with GaryB. running it out of tuned spec seems dangerous. although, i admire your experiments. i'm compiling a lot of info from you guys and your BFDs as well. ;)

i'm a little at odds with what you gain from < 20Hz response? it has always been my understanding that you can't hear <20Hz. is it bragging rights, or are there real objective conclusions for < 20Hz response? seems it is measurable, but is it audible?

dae3dae3
04-08-2005, 06:12 AM
I don't think it's so much the factor of 'audibility" as it is "feelibility." :cool:

Most people can't hear too much below 20 HZ. Sub 20 Hz low frequencies can be audible to some people if they are played loud enough. It's more the idea of being able to feel the low bass. Have you ever been in a church with a pipe organ where you could actually feel it playing the petal tones? Thats the sort of feeling alot of people are looking for in their home system.

Lee Bailey
04-08-2005, 06:55 AM
Nicholas, just how loud do you play your system? I've not yet bottomed out my sub, and we've had it up to what I consider extremely loud. If you're trying to reproduce true reference level bass, you may need more than one sub. Of course, there is the ULTRA line of SVS.

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 08:26 AM
Sub-20Hz infrasonics are important for me. The common items such as pipe organs, tail-end of cannonfire, detonations/rocket lift-offs, that split second rap from lighting strikes... etc. Having extension beyond 20Hz also seems to flesh out the 20Hz-30Hz range more, as the extension drop-off is deeper and not right at the edge of those 20-25Hz spectaculars. The 16-46+ does the dirty with sub-20Hz material, but obviously a driver that is bottoming out won't work.

Lee, with my SPL meter set to fast, the highest peak I recorded was 100dB, far less than the 115dB+ reference peaks.

I'm going to run tones and retest around 4 or 5pm. My landlord has company this afternoon... I have to give him some peace before I shake the house... :p
I told him weekends are going to be 9.0 on the richtor scale though... :D

curtis
04-08-2005, 08:39 AM
I think you will be much happier with the 16hz tune. Isn't the lowest pipe organ note 16hz?

Other than the lowest bass, how did the upper bass sound? Or is that where it bottomed because of the lower headroom in 12hz tune?

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 09:27 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646pfr.JPG
Dashed Line = 12Hz Mode
Solid Line = 16Hz Mode

My room's FR with the 1646+ in it's native 16Hz mode with all ports free.
Biggest difference was an increase from 17-20Hz and a loss of some infrasonic material. I also found a slight increase of SPL across many parts of the curve above 20Hz. I'm going to check if it bottoms out a little later.

Many newer movies have material down to 10Hz or less. I only tried 2 DVDs, LOTR: ROTK (Frodo's Heartbeat) and The Incredibles. I didn't bottom out in LOTR, but The Incredibles bottomed out in the only 2 scenes I watched. I can tell the bass isn't completely smooth without the BFD, so I'm going to wait to comment on music until I have it EQ'd.

sensibull
04-08-2005, 09:28 AM
Could it be that you are trying to aurally overcompensate for your wee display...

(joke, joke, just a joke ;-)

But seriously, I find the term "reference" is so misleading. If I ever played my system anywhere near reference, or cranked an SVS cylinder to its limits, my wife would have me taken away for child and pet abuse. Oh to be single and not volume-challenged again...

Your landlord must be pretty chill guy to tolerate that kind of thump.

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 09:45 AM
Its a big old victorian house. The front half of the first floor is his real estate business office. I have the back half of the first floor. He and his daughter live on the second floor.

I'm dead quiet after 10pm, and try to keep it down before 5pm M-F. After 5pm (& before 10pm) along with all day on the weekends I can crank it up. I like it cool (my apartment is at 55*F) and I always pay my rent a week or so early, so he never complains :D. We get along great... so far... :p

Everyone laugh it up on the ultravision 6000 display... you should hear the sound attached to those 2" explosions!!! :eek:

Mag_Neato
04-08-2005, 09:53 AM
Nick.....and anyone else doing freq. graphs.....

Dave F. recommends NOT to use 60Hz, but rather 63Hz, as 60 may have interference issues with the 60Hz A/C current from your household outlet.

metalaaron
04-08-2005, 10:28 AM
definitely different strokes for different folks. i think that i have come to prefer a little less bass over the years. my vtf-3 mk2 is more than i'll ever need.

nicholas,

you probably would have enjoyed rides in my friend's s-10 during high school. he had two 15" subs and a host of custom power/amps setup. i walked out of there shaking. i hated it. ha he was actually pulled over by the police on more than one occasion and cited for noise pollution. whenever we were waiting for class to start at 8am our senior year i could always remember saying, "here comes brad!". jurassic park on wheels. ;)

if you disappear for some time we'll simply know that your landlord has had enough, or you've been hit by a sound wave that has injured your lungs. ;)

enjoy!

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 12:05 PM
Actually I can't stand the "whoomp a thump thump" cars driving all over the place here. My sub isn't turned up all that loud, it actually blends nicely and you can't even tell its on until something asks for it. I don't even run it hot while watching movies like most people do. But when it's needed, you know it's there... :D

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646pfr.JPG
The lower solid line that breaks off at 35Hz is the modified FR using the BFD-Pro pEQ. The null around 95Hz was very touchy. I tried to smooth the area before and after it the best I could without kicking it down further (which I did by about 1.5-2dB).

Overall it's very smooth out to 90Hz with a steep ramp in the 20-30Hz range that rolls out relatively gentle until the pothole noted above.

Listening impressions to come soon.

curtis
04-08-2005, 12:05 PM
Infrasonic stuff is pretty cool....I just wonder sometimes why it is there, because in most theaters you don't get it.

I saw the Incedibles in the theater, but the bass experience at home was far more powerful than the theater....the whole audio experience was better at home.

A little off topic...but I don't know about you guys, but I just can't enjoy a movie now without good sound. I am going to a friend's place for a movie party on Sunday night, and I know the whole time I will be complaining about the sound to myself. She has a great livingroom with those itty bitty Energy speakers and sub......oh and the L/C/R speakers sit on top of her TV......the agony! :D

curtis
04-08-2005, 12:07 PM
I like that ramp from 30-20hz!

bikeman
04-08-2005, 12:25 PM
I saw the Incedibles in the theater .....

They still have theatres without "home" in front of them? :confused: :D

David

Mag_Neato
04-08-2005, 12:41 PM
Some of the budget theaters are still showing The Incredibles!

Back on topic.......Nick, how did you create that "ramp"?

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 12:59 PM
Well the 20Hz peak is a natural occurance with the 16-46PC+ in my particular room. To give it a gentle decrease to 90Hz I placed 10 filters from 35Hz to 90Hz with small bandwidths (5/60). Its just a matter of playing until you get it right. Took me 3 passes this time, focusing mostly around the edges of that null I have around 100Hz.

metalaaron
04-08-2005, 04:17 PM
Actually I can't stand the "whoomp a thump thump" cars driving all over the place here.

me either. sounds horrible. though it's funny to watch their license plates and mirrors rattle off.

are you going to stick with the SVS PC+ or try another model?

Lou-the-dog
04-08-2005, 04:54 PM
Nicholas,

I am just wondering, with your hunger for infrasonics, if it would be just as productive and more economical for you to use bass-kickers. To get those low chair shaking frequencys using a sub (or subs) is going to be expensive (as I think you are starting to realize).

Randy

curtis
04-08-2005, 04:59 PM
I thought about recommending Buttkickers too.....but thought it is more of an HT application.

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 07:35 PM
Ok guys, I ran it through just about everything I have in 16Hz mode. I want to thank and apologize to my neighbors (landlord) upstairs, people blown into the road walking on the sidewalk out front, and small animals in the woods outback that were driven underground.

I should start by saying it didn't bottom out even once today. I did notice a drop in the infrasonics during a few scenes moving from the 12Hz tune to the 16Hz tune, but I can't sit there and listen to "Clack-a-Rap Rap" as the driver destroys itself. The super-lows are still nice and strong though, better than anything I've ever heard.

Here it goes...

LOTR: FOTR
The 16-46 PC+ picked up the nice infrasonic tail to the "Ring Drop" scene at the beginning of the film. This movie is loaded to the hilt with Bass. I swear, I was waiting for a 6 second 20Hz blast when the hobbits flip the piece of canadian bacon in the frypan. The 1646+ was nice and calm though. After calibration the sub blended in smoothly and wasn't boomy whatsoever. It lended deep, nearly bottomless impacts to anything that asked for it. The breath-sucking bass that backs up the inferno of the balroq was spectacularly clean yet powerful.

LOTR: ROTK
Oliphant footstomps land with a "THUD" not a "THOOMP". Very, very nice. The Oliphant collision scene captured the deep infrasonic space-warping impact. All the butts, hits, and falls in the battle epics were as clean as I expect for this kind of money. I'd say 95% as clean as anything I've ever heard. Frodo and Sam in Mt. Doom was excellent. Not just the Heartbeat that sent waves of audible & inaudible bass through the floor rattling the light fixtures, but also the bass rendered from the environment. When the camera pans around as Sam first enters there are room shaking effects that really hit you with the volatile nature of the "set".

Master & Commander
Chapter 4. Yup, cannons cracked, wood busted, people screamed. The cannon blasts were tight with that nice and low wall-flexing hit that comes just after the high-frequency crack and low-frequency thump. Impacts and cannonfire were nice and discreet, a huge improvement over the PB10-ISD. No complaints for chapter 4.

Star Wars: Episode I
"Start your engines!", I got ready with my box of cheez-itz and hard cider. I noticed a wee-bit of rumble in about 10sec of the entire chapter, isolated to just 2 or 3 intense scenes. Some of this may just be the material though, as I have some beef with a few of the sound effects and how they are mixed in this scene. Canyon exits are nice and clean, and rock the room. Completely satisfactory performance.

The Incredibles
Incredible bass that is. It's everywhere, even more than LOTR with it's 15Hz earthquakes as Liv Tyler tosses her hair. As noted above, this movie caused the 1646+ to bottom out in 12Hz mode with a peak output of 103dB in my 1500ft^3 room. Once in 16Hz mode, it had no problems, but I did feel like I was missing a little something after the swap, especially during the Rocket liftoff while Dash is in the blast tunnel. Still, in 16Hz mode the 1646+ was no slouch, going deep and clean with a nice SPL. My favorite part is actually the bonus short on disc 2, "Jack Jack Attack". When Jack Jack bursts into flames after being shown the campfire flashcard the impact given off by the 1646+ is fantastic. The controlled thunder is maintained throughout the whole scene, as he is chased all over the room.

Black Hawk Down
The "Other Chapter 4". I could tell I was pushing the sub a bit here. When the soldiers run from the hangar to get on the choppers I could feel the infrasonics of the rotor blades tearing a hole in the atmosphere. Combined with the bass heavy soundtrack and explosions the sub felt like it was approaching it's limit and getting ready to shoot through my ceiling like some hilarious Monty Python skit. It never once bottomed out, but I was on the floor a couple times listening intently in panic.

Next I tried some DVD-A and SACD titles...

Diana Krall: Love Scenes DVD-A
Bass chords are beautiful! The sub drew little, if any attention to itself. The quick, loud notes at the beginning of "My Love Is" were just that, quick and loud. Everything was natural and completely transparent. The sub blended so nicely that imaging was spot on, and not ruined by a rumbling box that detracted from this quality. The PB10-ISD struggled to do this, while the 1646+ did it effortlessly. I listened to the whole disc... twice... ... ...in a row.

LAGQ: Latin/Guitar Heroes SACD's
Not much bass, but the sub has to pick up just a little bit from whats crossed over to it at 80Hz. The 16-46 PC+ did a fine job that was once again clean and transparent. Nothing else to say here.

Telarc's Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture SACD
Holy loud cannon-blasts Batman! I got down next to the sub just to make sure it wasn't bottoming out, and it wasn't. The first one that went off scared the crap out of me. Cheezitz flew everywhere, and my rug escaped a near disaster as I expertly righted my tipped cider bottle. Unbelieveable! Big drum blasts had a tiny bit more "whoomp" to them than they should, but even when focusing on this one small aspect it was minor. What a great 16min performance.

Dupre.Franck.Widor SACD
Yup, this sub does pipe organs. Very pleased. It fleshes out the higher bass nicely, and belts out those curdling lows excellently. Not much more to say on this one either. Listened to the whole disc by mistake.

Eagles: Hotel California DVD-A
Kick-drums sound better than they did on the PB10-ISD, but they still don't sound ideal. Could just be the mix, but there is a bit too much whoomp in it. Given the clarity of other bass hits, I'm wondering if it's just me. It may also be that I grew up listening to this just on 3" stereo speakers, and now that I have a big gnarly 12" driver belting out those notes my ears/memory are disagreeing. I dunno.

With the 16-46 PC+ I've definetly found the extension I was looking for, but after tasting it in 12Hz mode I've managed to plant seeds of desire in the back of my mind. Overall it has phenomenal performance that has easily met my expectations. With the sole-exception of an uber-expensive Thiel sub I heard at one of my local hifi shops, this is the best sub I've ever heard that meets my demands of extension, clarity, and output. I plan to keep this one!!! Woo-hoo!!!

I do have some beefs though. This thing was bottoming in 12Hz mode with a peak output of 103dB in my 1500ft^3 room. In otherwords this optional extension really isn't optional (in my case atleast). Kick/kettle drum blasts don't seem to be 100% in their clarity, but they're close enough for me, especially at this pricepoint.

During a few passages peaking in the 100dB range I could tell the sub was raising an eyebrow at me (work with the metaphor please). Seeing as I don't have the $4k for that Thiel sub I loved, I'm seriously considering the possibility of placing another 16-46 PC+ on the other side of my front soundstage. I know colocating is the best option, but I feel that spreading two out to either side of my front soundstage will help to make the bass even further diffused and even less localized during intense bass scenes. From my understanding, with proper setup (and phase) this will also increase headroom for the super-peaks in films such as The Incredibles and Black Hawk Down. While I was looking at getting my display next, I may try another 16-46 PC+ next month to see if that fills in the last 8 or 9% of my desire. Boy am I glad that I'm single... :D

Two thumbs up for the SVS 16-46 PC+!

GaryB
04-08-2005, 08:12 PM
I'm truly happy for you, Nicholas. Your carefully-detailed well-written assessments have been invaluable! Didn't I tell you that the 16 Hz tune was the ticket? Didn't I also tell you that you'd be delighted with the PB10-ISD? ;)

Now we've just got to convince Ron/Tom to release a 16-46 PC-Ultra...

curtis
04-08-2005, 08:18 PM
WooHoo!! Success!

Now just kick back and enjoy!

Nicholas Mosher
04-08-2005, 08:26 PM
Not sure about the "well-written" part. I was listening to music while I wrote that... it's loaded with grammatical errors. :D

Thanks for the comment though! :)

A 16-46 PC-Ultra would be interesting... ($$$$) :eek:
The 16-46 PC+ at $900 (incl. shipping) is enough for my wallet... :p

Still considering getting another one in 3 or 4 weeks...
THEN I can kick back and enjoy my 13" widescreen ultravision 6000...

DavidD
04-08-2005, 08:38 PM
Congratulations, I'm glad it worked out for you.

Jonnyozero3
04-29-2005, 02:49 PM
Hey nick - do you have any thoughts on what the trade-off's would be going with a 16-46 PCi instead of the PC+? I've capped myself at around $700 shipped which leaves me with the SVS PCi series, PB-12 ISD & ISD/V, the HSU VTF-3 MKII (stretching $$), or some DIY solution. My tastes aren't quite as discerning as yours, but similar...I really want something that goes deep but is "quick."

I wish every company posted freq-response graphs and spectral decay like ascend. oh well.

chas
04-29-2005, 03:05 PM
Don't know if you saw this but SVS does supply some response graphs. Here are a few examples:

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_1646pci_response.htm
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_isd_response.htm
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12isd_v_response.htm

Nicholas Mosher
04-29-2005, 04:47 PM
My tastes aren't quite as discerning as yours, but similar...I really want something that goes deep but is "quick."Actually your tastes sound exactly like mine... :D

"Slow" or "Muddy" bass really seems to be peaks at certain frequencies caused by peoples rooms. Peaks at 60Hz is the one that really bothered me. If you can discern the difference between "quick" and "slow" bass, you probably are going to want a Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro Parametric EQ. They're about $120, and a must-have for good quality low frequency response. You should also have a radio shack SPL meter (~$40) and a good setup DVD like "Avia" (~$40). I firmly believe that a properly equalized and calibrated $500 sub will sound much more clear and definitive (although perhaps not as loud or deep) than a $3000 un-equalized, uncalibrated sub.

As the sub's tuning point goes lower, you lose headroom at the higher frequencies. In the case of the 1646 sized tube, this is problematic if you like spirited playback levels. The problem gets worse as your room size gets larger. I find one 1646+ to be barely adequate in my 1500ft^3 room. I no longer believe the port plugging hype either. It decreased my headroom in my 1646+ so badly that it bottomed out. If you want that infrasonic stuff that really makes cannons, pipe organs, and pixar movies sound real, you'll want something tuned less than 20Hz.

I believe you get greater headroom with less distortion at the peaks with the PC+ line, but you should eMail SVS about this. If you really want "clean/fast" bass, I would highly recommend getting a $550 dollar sub with the BFD on a $700 budget.

sensibull
04-29-2005, 04:53 PM
FWIW, I was able to get a BFD in pristine condition (albeit the previous model) for $50 on ebay. Scored a Rat Shack meter for $14.99 as well... YMMV.

jimsiff
04-29-2005, 05:04 PM
Jon,

I won't speak for Nick, but how big is your room? How much output are you looking for in general terms? If I was handed your budget, given my preferences I would consider the SVS PCi 20-39, the SVS PB-12 ISD/V, and the HSU VTF3 Mk II. If I could scrimp another $125, I'd consider the SVS PC+ 20-39. You would get the upgraded driver, amplifier, and variable tuning. With the PCi, you can try 12, 16, or 20 hz tunes to see which you like best.

You lose headroom in all but the ultra-low frequencies with a 16 hz tune. You give up some infrasonics with a 20 hz tune, but room gain and sub placement can help you get some of that back without losing output and headroom above 25 hz. That's why Nick is looking at a second 16-46. He craves the infrasonics, but needs more effortless output above 25 hz than one 16-46 PC+ can deliver.

If the PC+ 20-39 is absolutely not an option, and you're intent on trying a sub with a >20hz tune, I'd try the PB-12 ISD/V. You'd have the ability to experiment with different tuning frequencies. You could see for yourself if the added infrasonics are worth the trade off. If it's not worth it, you're not stuck with a 16 hz maximum tune.

If you're not set on trying a low tune, I'd also consider the VTF3 or 20-39 PCi. They both have flat response to 18 hz.

I personally have the VTF3 Mk II and love it. I've never heard SVS, but I'm sure they're very nice as well. The VTF3 extends down to 18 hz +/- 2 dB in the 20 hz tune in an anechoic chamber. It may be possible to achieve 16 hz +/- 3 dB in room response. Hopefully Curtis chimes in. He recently did some measurements of his VTF3 in-room and had nice extension well into the infrasonics.

Good luck...

jimsiff
04-29-2005, 05:18 PM
Picking up on Nick's comment about a $550 sub and BFD, I would agree. EQing and/or treating your room to improve in room response will make a $550 sub sound better than a $700 sub with no help. If you're capped at $700 for the sub/EQ/treatment combo, I'd consider a 20-39 PCi, BFD, and some DIY no frills bass traps. You'd get 20 hz extension anechoic and quite possibly down to 18 or below in room, good headroom above 25 hz, room treatments and an EQ to finish the job.

Nicholas Mosher
04-29-2005, 05:52 PM
I think for your budget a sub tuned for 20Hz like the SVS 20-39 PCi is your best bet. With shipping and a BFD + shipping you're looking at just a smidgen over $700. The closest HSU by the price/numbers would be an STF-3 (although it's tuned 5Hz higher than the 20-39). A VTF-2 or STF-2 would probably have the same problems I encountered with the PB10 due to the limitations of a 10" driver. At this price point I think I would forego a HSU option.

If your budget can accommodate ~$850 I would get a HSU VTF3-MKII with the BFD as the move up from the 20-39 PCi to the 20-39 PC+ would be out of your budget.

curtis
04-29-2005, 06:05 PM
Good recommendations.

I need to do more measurements with my setup, but room gain has a lot to do with what you can achieve below 25hz. After showing my graphs to people, not a whole lot I can do with the BFD to make things nicer.

When I measure next, I will do 1/6th octave as oppose to 1/24th octave, people seem to think I will get a pretty smooth graph that way.

In comparing subs, there is really more to the sound than all the measurements that seem to be available. I know what I have heard and it is very good learning experience.

My choice? VTF-3MK2 without BFD for now...especially if you are going to be more HT than music(although we know that changes with Ascends) Get a BFD later, or another EQ device that is on the horizon.

You can also try b-stock.

Jonnyozero3
05-01-2005, 08:30 PM
chas - thanks, I have seen the SVS graphs which is nice of them (I see they fixed their 20-39 graph link finally), but I can't seem to find one for the HSU subs.

sensibull - nice ebays grabs! I'll make sure to look.

Nicholas/jim/curtis - Thanks for all the info - as always I appreciate the help. Let me answer the questions as best I can and pose a few more.

EQ - My $700 budget doesn't include a BFD, just the sub :). First I'm going to see how the HK-435 does with eq'ing the sub, and if I don't get good enough results I'll bypass or compliment it with a BFD later on. I am curious exactly how the 435 eq's the sub (cuts vs gains, # of bands, etc). I already have Avia and I'll be picking up a Rat Shack meter (of course!) pretty soon.

Room - My room is kind of a rectangle that is missing a chunk. It's approximately 17'9" x 24'6" x 7'1" (to drop ceiling, 4" more to wood beams), but one corner is missing 8'6" x 3'9" for a storage room. About 2850sq ft if I did the math correctly. That's the gist of it, but here's a detailed layout of it:
http://community.webshots.com/album/109804667bgmVCV
(third photo)

The room is in my basement, so under the carpet is concrete. The drop ceiling is 1" thick foam tile (cuts higher freq reflections pretty well), and the walls are 1/2" drywall and 1" rigid foam insulation over concrete. Yup, no wall studs. The walls are abosultely non-resonant on three sides. That should help me out I think. I have about 48 sq ft of 4" acoustic foam and 8 4" corner blocks to help also, but that's for >125hz, so NA here. DIY bass traps are an option.

Options - I think I'm looking for output in the mid/high ranges since I like to turn my movies up a bit, but I'm not nuts. I can't afford to damage my hearing since they are important to my job. I'd like to pressurize the room and get a better than theater experience with movies.

I need to go do some auditions around town at the B&M places to see what I enjoy. A friend from AVS has one of the new Outlaw LFM-1's - I'll probably bring my 170s over to check it out. Another friend has a small sunfire that I will check out also for comparison's sake.

SVS vs HSU - Don't want to open any cans other than beer (although I prefer bottled), but can anyone point me in the direction of some forum threads that aren't flame wars that have some good honest opinions on the subs in my price range? I feel like I have a ton of options and it's very difficult to make a decision. Anyhow, Here are the ones I am investigating more in depth. If you can think of another I should consider please let me know :)

SVS 1646PCi, 20-39PCi (I can only go to a PC+ if it's ABSOLUTELY worth it, cause it'll hurt)
SVS PB-12 ISD/V
Hsu VTF-3 MKII (or HO? dunno what price that will be)
Outlaw LFM-1

Thanks!

bikeman
05-02-2005, 05:38 AM
SVS 1646PCi, 20-39PCi (I can only go to a PC+ if it's ABSOLUTELY worth it, cause it'll hurt)
SVS PB-12 ISD/V
Hsu VTF-3 MKII (or HO? dunno what price that will be)
Outlaw LFM-1

From reading approximately one and a half million posts on subwoofers over the past two years, I'd say you will be very happy with which ever you choose from the above. I would concentrate on non-SQ issues. Why not draw up a chart of pluses and minuses for each.
A few to start.

How large a water heater is acceptable?
Upgradability. VTF-3 get a big plus in my book on this one if the turbo turns out the way it's being marketed.
Infrasonics.
Lastest and greatest driver.
PRICE
WAF?

I'm holding off till Fall. By that time, all the new introductions should be out with lots of feedback.

David

Jonnyozero3
05-02-2005, 09:59 AM
From reading approximately one and a half million posts on subwoofers over the past two years, I'd say you will be very happy with which ever you choose from the above

Yup, that's about what I had figured out. It sucks though :) I wish choices in this hobby were more clear, but that would take the fun out of it. As far as your eval criteria - good stuff. That'll help me figure it out...

1- Any size water heater is acceptable. Got to love the dedicated HT. Bigger the better I guess!
2- Upgrades....hmm. Interesting. A neat option, and a plus, but not a minus to those that don't offer this route; because it still costs more money later.
3- Infrasonics - I need to go do some listening around town, but I think I'd like to get some decent extension below 20hz. I want to feel the music and the movies.
4- Driver - I don't care if the driver is 500 years old if it sounds better than a new shiny techy one.
5- Price - my budget expands and contracts depening on my mood and how much I want to spend on my new mountain bike hobby or my older offroading one. But, about $700 is where I am drawing the line. I need my payraise later this month though :P
6- WAF = girlfriend approval factor which is "get whatever". She's the one who listened to the Ascends and said "let's buy more for upstairs!". So, I could put four subs downstairs and it'd be no problem. It's the man cave/dungeon home theater. :)

I'm not sure if I can wait until the fall, but we'll see. I guess I am most concerned about choosing between SVS's lower extension and Hsu's quick/musical reputation. Hard choice.

Thanks for the advice so far...

curtis
05-02-2005, 10:13 AM
6- WAF = girlfriend approval factor which is "get whatever". She's the one who listened to the Ascends and said "let's buy more for upstairs!". So, I could put four subs downstairs and it'd be no problem. It's the man cave/dungeon home theater. :)
It is becoming more clear now. Upstairs, she wants Ascends for her own enjoyment while she has you locked up in the dungeon. :D

bikeman
05-02-2005, 11:54 AM
It is becoming more clear now. Upstairs, she wants Ascends for her own enjoyment while she has you locked up in the dungeon. :D

Every married audio nut's dream. :D

David

Jonnyozero3
05-02-2005, 02:09 PM
yup....a pretty good deal :)

Jonnyozero3
05-06-2005, 10:03 AM
Well, I figured out an interim subwoofer solution...

My Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 System Sub!

Heh, yup, I hooked up my computer speaker sub with a 1/8" jack to mono plug thingy to the AVR435's sub preout....and it works. Given, this is just a computer speaker sub, but it's dual 8" drivers aren't too bad. It'll tide me over until I can get a real sub.

Some specs from the Promedias :p
FREQUENCY RESPONSE:
25Hz-20kHz +/- 5dB :eek:

AMPLIFIER POWER:
FTC Rated Subwoofer: 170 watts @ ≤ 3% THD :eek: , 40 - 100Hz :eek:

SUBWOOFER:
Dual 8" side-firing fiber composite drivers

Hehehe...

Jonnyozero3
05-07-2005, 08:56 PM
Dang, now I know the meaning of spectral decay...or the lack thereof. Sheesh.

Harry potter today:

Thomp...
Rummmmmmmmmmmmmbbbbble...(for 5 seconds)

heh, oh well.

Nicholas Mosher
05-13-2005, 11:08 AM
Well I just ordered another 5.0m Outlaw Audio subwoofer cable along with their Y-Adapter. Another SVS 16-46 PC+ will be on the way next Friday. I almost had enough to get it today, but I decided to hold off one more week so I could eat T-Bones instead of Ramen... :D

Then the veil of Valhalla will be breached and I should have audio bliss in my mini-cinema. Of course the process of saving up for a projector will then begin... :rolleyes:

Then leather Berkline seating... then an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player... then... :p

bikeman
05-13-2005, 12:54 PM
Then leather Berkline seating... then an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player... then... :p

Then, marriage, then kids, then......I don't want to think about it. :D

Lee Bailey
05-13-2005, 03:10 PM
Then leather Berkline seating... then an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player... then... :p

Then the eviction notice.... :eek:

Nicholas Mosher
05-13-2005, 03:51 PM
Then, marriage, then kids, then...:eek: :eek: :eek:

Then the eviction notice....Just paid my rent today, and neither my landlord or his daughter said anything about my "spirited listening" on weekend afternoons... :p

Jonnyozero3
05-13-2005, 04:34 PM
Congrats. I hope you are buying your neighbors lots of beer :p

jimsiff
05-13-2005, 05:49 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Just paid my rent today, and neither my landlord or his daughter said anything about my "spirited listening" on weekend afternoons... :p

Have you given them a proper demo? They don't know what they're missing if all they ever hear is the slam of the 16-46 and muffled music coming out of the 170s.

Nicholas Mosher
05-13-2005, 06:58 PM
Considering my rent is "all-inclusive" (including electric), I don't think I'll be inviting him over to see my wall of speakers and electronics anytime soon... :p

Plus not many people will willingly sit on my couch. It looks like a large version of that green chair on the VW commercial... I should have Berkline seating by the fall... :D

jojo
05-13-2005, 08:40 PM
thatd goona be hella sweet with 2 subs. have you looked into those 60inch dlp tvs. and what do you call your cinema and do u charge admission

Nicholas Mosher
05-21-2005, 12:51 AM
Darn! :mad:

Had to buy some materials for my flight lessons, and it's my turn to buy prime-rib at work this week. My home theater budget is $50 short of the $900 I need to get another 16-46 PC+. Looks like I 'gotta wait another week... :rolleyes:

It will be ordered Friday the 27th for sure! :p

Nicholas Mosher
05-22-2005, 10:30 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/band.gif
Both my flight lessons were cancled this weekend due to visibility and wind shear, which freed up some cash.
Just ordered my second 1646+ through SVS' online order form.

Hopefully this should satisfy my audio needs. Now I need to save up for a projector... :rolleyes:

Pics and review to come once I receive it.

curtis
05-22-2005, 11:12 AM
I guess that is an example of bad luck being beneficial?

Have fun with it!!

Nicholas Mosher
05-23-2005, 11:39 AM
Scheduled delivery date of Wednesday the 25th!

I took Wednesday off from work, so I'm all set to rock from Wednesday until Saturday Afternoon when I go back to work at 3pm!

jimsiff
05-24-2005, 01:43 AM
I hope you realize you're now on the hook for another round of detailed and interesting setup and tweak posts as well as listening impressions. :D

Nicholas Mosher
05-24-2005, 06:07 AM
I hope you realize you're now on the hook for another round of detailed and interesting setup and tweak posts as well as listening impressions. :D But of course! :p

Nicholas Mosher
05-24-2005, 02:39 PM
I'm pooped. Just finished rearranging my audio components to the front corner of the room, re-positioning a few things on the front soundstage, and rewiring all my 5 main channels due to the fact that the audio rack was moved. I'm all ready for my sub tomorrow! Gotta work tonight (11-7) and then I'm off until Saturday (3-11). I was put on the overtime list today too. Hopefully I can drum some extra cash up so I can finally get a projector... :o

Only one bummer, I dont have an RCA cable long enough to reach my little temporary 13" TV sitting next to my center channel... hmmm....

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 06:37 AM
Sitting around waiting for the big brown box to drop off my big brown box... :rolleyes: :D

curtis
05-25-2005, 07:57 AM
And we're waiting with you! :)

Are you going to use the second channel of the BFD to EQ the new sub seperately, or are you going to use a single channel(or both channels combined) and EQ the two subs as one?

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 08:27 AM
I'll be using one channel to calibrate both. The Y is after the EQ.
He better not make me wait by coming at 5:30 or something... :mad: :p

curtis
05-25-2005, 08:47 AM
FedEx, UPS, and USPS almost always come at the end of the day for me. Hope you have a better schedule.

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 09:00 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/svs2.jpg

More to come...http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/demon.gif

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 09:27 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/svs2a.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/band.gif I need to go get a couple more concrete pavers. The sub is on the left side of the front soundstage now, but my camera needs a wideangle lens to capture the full front wall so I colocated them for a quick picture. Kick-@$$!

dae3dae3
05-25-2005, 10:09 AM
Man, I bet you never run out of hot water now. :eek:

jimsiff
05-25-2005, 10:11 AM
Nick,

Nice looking subs. I'd love to listen to a 16-46.

I don't know if you care or not, but if you've got a friend or family with some basic woodworking tools, you could make some nice bases for the concrete pavers that would match the subs and look more like furniture.

You'd cut a square piece of 3/4" plywood the same dimensions as both pavers, rip some 1x6 pine or hemlock down to size as the edge pieces, and nail them to the edges of the plywood with finish nails. Simple butt joints would be easiest. You could use a router with a 1/4 round bit to round the top and side edges of the tray to match your 170s. Then use some construction adhesive (liquid nails) to secure the concrete pavers to the new tray, and paint it black to match your subs.

Mag_Neato
05-25-2005, 10:19 AM
You could send that picture to the NYC twin-towers committee!!

Off the richter!! :D

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 11:40 AM
You could send that picture to the NYC twin-towers committee!!

Off the richter!! :D
Hahahaha! :p

Wow, setting phase was easy enough!

Started with Sub #1 on with a "0" phase setting, and recorded 70dB. Turned on Sub #2 with a "0" phase setting and recorded 76dB. Can't get much easier than that!

Running gains on both subs at 3/8 notch levels, or ~38%. The Pre/Pro's sub level is at -5dB.

I'm going to tweak 'em with the BFD tonight (all of the above was with the BFD in bypass).

I'll do some preliminary listening in a couple hours.

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 05:04 PM
Ok, calibrated sub 1 to 70dB, shut it off, turned on #2 and calibrated that to 70dB (didn't have to change anything actually). Turned #1 back on and got ~6dB increase. I guess it's just $#!t luck... :p

Spent the last two hours just listening without BFD. I definetly need to set it up again, but I wanted to get a taste of what I bought.

I can already tell two issues have been solved... ;)

1. No more problems with peak impacts! Holy smokes! Aside from some room resonances, there doesn't seem to be any struggle whatsoever during the big bass classics.
2. The bass is everywhere, I can no longer tell what side of the room the bass is coming from, because its coming from both sides now (duh)...:p


More to come once I knock down a few FR humps with the BFD.

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 05:06 PM
Jimsiff,
I'm a single guy without any needed WAF. Concrete pavers look good to me! :p :D

curtis
05-25-2005, 05:07 PM
any feedback from the neighbors yet? :)

Nicholas Mosher
05-25-2005, 07:09 PM
any feedback from the neighbors yet? :)Nope, thankfully not. :rolleyes:

Ok, here is a current floorplan of the room. I had to swap the subs to the outside of the FL & FR because I may go with a 92" screen over a 72" if visible pixelation isn't too too bad. My 5.0m sub cable was just long enough... :o

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/newroom.jpg

Here is the best front soundstage shot I can manage. I'm standing just outside the doorway depicted above on the floorplan. Everyone tells me I should go atleast 92" for a screen given my ample wall realestate. Problem is 72" is the max suggested for my viewing distance of 8' (eyeball to wall). I'll be able to determine what I can go with once I pick up a PJ, sometime in mid-July I'm guessing. This is a mock 72"er.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/svs2c.jpg

Anyhoo, I ran sine waves tonight and plotted them. This is without the BFD. I almost crapped myself as I ran the tones until I hit 55-60Hz. Pretty flat from 12Hz to 50Hz. I'm going to play with Phase tomorrow turning both knobs at the same rate to see if I can get a better blend with the mains. If not, I'm going to work with this. My plan will be to gently slope the curve down to ~78dB @ 55Hz and cut the 65-75Hz range down to ~76dB. I illustrated this too. Not perfect, but we'll see.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/svs2b.jpg

Getting too late to crank the subs (after 10pm here) so they'll have to wait until tomorrow...

Nicholas Mosher
05-27-2005, 09:53 PM
Adjusted the phase of both subs to 180 (also tried 90 which was worse), recalibrated each sub alone to 70dB, and verified a +5-6dB increase with both running. This smoothed out the blending with my mains creating less significant valleys at 60 & 80Hz.

My subs and mains are calibrated to 85dB@00dB on my Master Volume.
This caused the BFD to light up red bars on Master and Commander, so both sub gains were set to 50% and sub level in my pre/pro is set at -12dB. Just green bars now.

Not quite happy with my curve quite yet, but here is my first quick attempt.
I need to slope that 40-60Hz region down more, and possibly take a little off the 20Hz peak. I was also naughty and used a couple positive "bump" filters at 60 and 80Hz. I figured with the amount of headroom I have and the fact that these are higher frequencies it shouldn't hurt anything. Post testing didn't indicate any struggle at these frequencies with ~100dB of output via Sine waves so it should be ok. This curve was also generated with only 3 filters!

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/1646x2bfd1.JPG

More to come along with a final review once I get the FR curve to my liking.

jimsiff
06-01-2005, 09:21 AM
More to come along with a final review once I get the FR curve to my liking.

And...? ;)

Nicholas Mosher
06-01-2005, 10:52 AM
Ok guys, I finally finished tweaking everything and running the setup through all my test material.

Here are some images of my front "soundstage" and surround right area.
Its tough to get shots without warping the view.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/roomfront.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/roomright.JPG

Here is my final frequency response. With just one cylinder I used all twelve BFD filters. With the duals this FR was achieved with just four! I'm very happy with it. A nice hump from 12Hz - 25Hz, dead-nuts flat from 25Hz - 60Hz, and then a fairly smooth 7dB drop from 60Hz to 100Hz. Everything from 12Hz to 45Hz is untouched natural response. Take a look...

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/dualfinal.JPG

How it sounds...
KICK-@$$!http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/headbang.gif
Hands down this is the most amazing bass I've ever heard. Solid authoritative extension to 12Hz, massive peak SPLs, no sound of struggle during intensive passages, completely non-directional, and response that is atleast 90% as clean as anything I've heard. In my ~1500ft^3 room with the BFD these units get the job done.

Listening to the opening sequence of "Open Range" in DTS at 5dB below reference, the Thunder & Lightning sounds 100% authentic. With the surrounds creating a completely immersive rainfall this sequence is one of my refound favorites.

One vs Two.
Adding the second sub to the opposite side of the front soundstage eliminated any ability of mine to tell what side of the room the bass was eminating from. Peak slams (such as thunder raps) seem much more authoritative, and there seems to be less "struggle" during intense passages. Adding the second sub really opened everything up and was definetly worth the extra cash.

My audio setup is finally finished... saving up and moving on to the display side of things... :)

EDIT:LOL Jim! That was odd timing... :p

jimsiff
06-01-2005, 12:51 PM
That's a great looking soundstage. Once you get your PJ and screen setup, you ought to be able to charge admission. :D