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JohnnyCasaba
03-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Saw this on another forum, thought I would post it here too.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

GaryB
03-30-2005, 07:43 PM
It's nice to see that Peter Aczel is still around. I subscribed to The Audio Critic back in 1976 or '77 when it was introduced, with great fanfare, as a more rigorous, scientifically-valid "underground" alternative to Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, which at that time were solidly in the "golden-ear" camp. Aczel was very feisty and combative and, to his credit, was one of the first to stress the importance of proper phono cartridge alignment. One of his pet peeves at the time was the "S-shaped" tonearm.

He also, in contrast to what he now believes, was vehemently opposed to the proposed digital standards for CDs (which started to become "mainstream" around 1980), almost hysterically condemning the standards as not good enough.

Unfortunately, despite a promise to publish quarterly, subsequent issues arrived less and less frequently, and stopped altogether after about 3 years, when I still had several left in my paid subscription. I heard he had suffered a "nervous breakdown", and then had started a small speaker company of his own.

His feisty and literate writing style has obviously survived the years, and this article should be required reading for all audio newbies.

Thanks for the trip down "memory lane", Johnny!

mokemo
03-30-2005, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the great article, Johnnycasaba. For more reading on "electronic pseudoscience" members can check out an article in the new issue of Skeptic magazine, Vol.11 No.3 (www.skeptic.com) titled "Audiophoolery".
It is written by professional audio engineer Ethan Winer, who also casts a jaundiced eye on some of the snake oil that's being scammed out there to consumers of high end audio.

bikeman
03-31-2005, 05:41 AM
"It is written by professional audio engineer Ethan Winer,"

I enjoy reading Ethan. He's not one sugar coat an issue. I'll check out the article at work.
Here's Ethan's website:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/index.htm

Perceptual psychology is an area that has made great strides in the last two decades. It explains a lot about our senses and why we see, hear, taste and feel the way we do. We do in fact see and hear differences that don't exist. Experiments have shown this over and over again. Now, we're beginning to understand some of the reasons behind this. My last Psych course was six years ago so I'm not up on the lastest .
My next door neighbor has a PHD in Audiology. He's always fun to talk to about these things.
This hobby would be less interesting if it were all science but the bottom line to me will remain the science. I don't dispute what people hear or see. I can dispute if there is anything of substance behind it. Great topic. Thanks for posting it.

David

Nicholas Mosher
03-31-2005, 08:14 AM
My next door neighbor has a PHD in Audiology.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/roflmao.gifHahahaha! I've never even heard of that before? I want a PhD in moviewatchinology.

I got hired today. Now I can get back to building my flight hours for my PPL.

curtis
03-31-2005, 08:25 AM
Congrats on the new job!!

Audiology is a real field. I have a good friend that has a masters degree in the field, and she used to work with hearing aids and the hearing impaired. It is cool talking to her about sound because she understands all the concepts, perceptions, and downfalls. She recently wanted to buy some small speakers for her new projection setup...I sent her to Hsu for the Ventriliquist system...she loved it and said Dr. Hsu must have been surprised that a chick understood everything he was talking about. :D

metalaaron
03-31-2005, 08:54 AM
is she single? http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

bikeman
03-31-2005, 08:56 AM
"I got hired today."

Way to go, Nicholas. I hope the new job dosen't interfere with your posting to the Forum. We have to maintain some priorities. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

David

curtis
03-31-2005, 09:04 AM
is she single? http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
:D Yes she is...and very good looking. I know her well enough to know she has a couple of guys on the "string" right now. :)

Yeah Nicholas....can you post from your new job? :D Your contributions have been great these past couple of weeks!

Nicholas Mosher
03-31-2005, 09:45 AM
I have a really weird work schedule, but I took this schedule in favor of a 7-3 M-F offer (I hate days). I want to pick up a couple languages, and can't take the higher level coursework I need working days. Last spring I spent four months traveling around the country and driving to Alaska. I'm hoping to save up for a few years again and do something similar in Europe. I'm also itching to try myself at hiking the Appalachian Trail. I've hiked the better portion of it up here in Mass and Vermont, but want to try the 5 month struggle to do it all at once. My goals for the next few years are to get my private pilots license (I have 6hrs right now), become reasonably fluent in Spanish (which supposedly makes Italian & Portugueese easier to pick up), be able to get around with French & German, get a home theater display, and save money for adventuring (AT and Europe). I figure I'll get atleast a couple of those things accomplished if I keep my aim high... :p

I'm a wastewater operator, so mainly I'm either in a lab running tests or out fixing machinery, so I can't post from work. :p

My hours are 11p-7a M & T, and 3p-11p W, Sa, and Su. So my "weekend" will be 11pm Wednesday to 3pm Saturday. Anyhoo, I'll still be around... :cool:

BFD just arrived... :eek:

jimsiff
03-31-2005, 09:54 AM
Congrats on the new job. It's been nice to read your reviews and posts the past few weeks. If you ever make it out to the left coast, check out the Pacific Crest Trail. It's a completely different take on distance hiking. I've done parts of the PCT in Oregon and it's great.

Nicholas Mosher
03-31-2005, 11:11 AM
I actually purchased a book on the PCT. When I was out on the pacific coast last spring I hiked on the PCT in a few areas between Washington and California. The other great long distance trail is the Continental Divide Trail (CDT). That one is pretty much complete wilderness and you have to find your way :D

I hiked up Mt. Lassen in Northern California too. I have a bunch of pics from my trip on my homepage...
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/

LOL! I just edited a stupid mistake. I typed colorado instead of california... :p

cestlavie
04-01-2005, 01:52 PM
I'm curious as to how many people think biwiring, power conditioning (not surge protection), and tube amplifiers are snake oil.

I can only comment on tube
I don't consider myself an audio elitist, and have never heard a tube amp before in my life, nor was I marketed to one, but when I listened to one the first time, a very small one, it was very impressive. I'm not saying it's better than solid state, i'm just saying it sounds different.

But it seems that I bought into biwiring and power conditioning, and still believe in tube amps being different.

I've also seen electrical diagrams showing no electrical gain, but seeing as how ascend speakers are biwire capable, I'm curious as to why they would be there if they made no difference. Dave is obviously a smart guy, I'm sure they are there for a reason.

jimsiff
04-01-2005, 02:37 PM
I'm curious as to how many people think biwiring, power conditioning (not surge protection), and tube amplifiers are snake oil.

I think biwiring is by and large snakeoil, but that's just my opinion. Most common speakers that accept biwiring just come with a jumper between the sets of bindiing posts. You MIGHT be able to see any time delay due to different speaker lead lengths on a very fast, high bandwidth oscilloscope, but the difference would be so miniscule that the human ear couldn't tell the difference.

I believe that power conditioning is a YMMV situation. Your need for power conditioning depends on the quality of the electrical feed to your service panel, your inside wiring, and the quality of the power supply in your HT equipment. Most decent HT equipment has reasonable power filtration to begin with, so any improvement would be slight to none unless your power quality is poor to begin with. I have a Furman PL-8 power conditioner/surge supressor and I didn't notice any difference in sound or video quality. I bought it for it's surge supression capabilities anyhow.


I don't consider myself an audio elitist, and have never heard a tube amp before in my life, nor was I marketed to one, but when I listened to one the first time, a very small one, it was very impressive. I'm not saying it's better than solid state, i'm just saying it sounds different.

I haven't had a chance to listen to tube gear, but I will one day. I reserve judgement on this one.


I've also seen electrical diagrams showing no electrical gain, but seeing as how ascend speakers are biwire capable, I'm curious as to why they would be there if they made no difference. Dave is obviously a smart guy, I'm sure they are there for a reason.

I would guess that Ascend makes the 340s biwireable because there are customers that like to have that ability.

cestlavie
04-01-2005, 04:40 PM
Fair enough, thanks for the qualified answer

Cargo
04-06-2005, 01:50 PM
I would like to hear more discussion on the bi-wiring issue. I have my current speakers bi-wired, but I went from a 16 gauge (not bi-wired) speaker wire to a 10 gauge bi-wire speaker cable. Of course it made a difference, if for no other reason than the gauge increase.
Eddie-Did you and I talk about this a little bit a few weeks ago?

Eddie Horton
04-06-2005, 02:16 PM
Yep, I think we did. I have my 340's bi-wired, but it's only for looks. I couldn't tell a bit of a difference in running them bi-wired or using one set of inputs. Whether I use the upper inputs, lower inputs, or both by bi-wiring, they're still getting 200 watts of juice from my Outlaw M-200's.

Cargo
04-07-2005, 09:18 AM
I read the article by Peter Aczel last night. Very interesting points of view. He doesn't pull any punches either. His views of bi-wiring and high end cables shed light on the subject that you do not hear too often. Thanks for the very educational post.

KPFury
12-28-2005, 11:42 PM
Wow, so this guy doesn't believe in:

analog > digital
A/B testing
bi-wiring
burn-in
power-conditioner

You learn something new everyday :)

bikeman
12-29-2005, 04:07 AM
Wow, so this guy doesn't believe in:
analog > digital
A/B testing
bi-wiring
burn-in
power-conditioner
You learn something new everyday :)
You can save a bunch of money with this guy's line of reasoning. I made the swithch almost two decades ago and my wallet has been thankful ever since.

David

S_rangeBrew
12-29-2005, 08:33 AM
I agree with most the things listed above.

Gotta disagree with a couple, though.

Working with power for server rooms, I know power conditioning is *NOT* snake oil. It may not have a noticiable effect on audio, but it's a good thing for your electronic equipment, no matter what it is.

Also... A/B testing is worthless? Bull. It's the only way to test speakers. Audio memory is short, so instant switching is the best way to tell the difference. When I tested my Ascends vs. Polks and JBLs, A/B switching was what showed how clearly Ascends were better.

bikeman
12-29-2005, 09:17 AM
I agree with most the things listed above.
Gotta disagree with a couple, though.
Working with power for server rooms, I know power conditioning is *NOT* snake oil. It may not have a noticiable effect on audio,
Correct. Buying power conditioners without knowing what it is we're trying to fix is not a solution. Can power conditioners help someone with power delivery issues? Sometimes. Will they help most folks? No. This can all be measured. If the power company isn't delivering the goods, get em to fix it. If there's a problem with the home wiring, it's better to fix the problem itself.


but it's a good thing for your electronic equipment, no matter what it is.
Spending money fixing problems that don't exist is wasteful no matter what it is.



Also... A/B testing is worthless? Bull. It's the only way to test speakers. Audio memory is short, so instant switching is the best way to tell the difference. When I tested my Ascends vs. Polks and JBLs, A/B switching was what showed how clearly Ascends were better.
The author didn't mention speakers. He specifically talked about amps and from having read other articles by him, I don't think he'd include speakers. For the sake of brevity, he left out more than he should have in this piece.

David

atlr
01-06-2006, 06:11 AM
Thanks for pointers to these articles.

I believe the author's position was that although many people assert that double blind A/B testing is not valid, he believes it *is* valid.

gevorg
04-06-2006, 09:52 PM
I can't take that article seriously. Science is the study of the world, its not the "rules book" of the world, therefore it will always progress to the undiscovered areas. Lookup how world's scientists initially reacted to Einstein's theory of relativity ;)

I'm just a music listerner, so I can't critically evaluate how the product works. Therefore, the only things that I trust in evaluating HiFi components are my good old ears! Professional opinions are good guideways, but in the end, I might not hear what they hear, might not like what they like, and vise-versa. If the difference is well more than subtle and gives the most improvement to the system at its price, its well worth it, even if its a bybee filter :) Even if part of it is psychological, it still worth it, because the whole point is to enjoy the music at nirvana!

rajacat
04-07-2006, 10:05 AM
One thing to consider is that the author is just stating his opinion and I'm sure that you could find other equaly or better qualified "experts" who might take issue with some of his points.