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Nicholas Mosher
03-24-2005, 07:53 PM
My CBM-170 review was starting to go off-topic, so I'll start this thread.

Received the SVS PB10-ISD today. UPS guy almost busted a nut getting it off the truck (75lbs). Nice and double boxed, and protected by foam corner braces. Only setup problem was getting the bass management set for DVD-A/SACD. The Denon DVD-2900's LFE channel is 15dB down for DVD-A/SACD (for some unknown reason... the manual even states it will do this). Level control is limited to -10dB to 0dB. So I adjusted the five main channels to -10dB which got me within 5dB. I got the sub matched with the mains by boosting it 5dB with the Outlaw pre/pro's analog volume control. Unfortunately this means when I use the 2900s digital out to the 950, I have to cut that 5db boost on the 950 or the sub will run hot for movies. But I did it this way so I never have to screw with the gain knob on the sub. Gain is set at a hair over 60% by the way. I'll have to wait for a friend to come over before I can properly set phase and do a full FR measurement.

Haven't really got a chance to open it up, but I did verify a solid 20Hz with AVIA. More to come tomorrow...

Although I lent my camera out, I do have my miniDV sony which will take 1 megapixel shots. I'll have some pics tomorrow.

Eddie Horton
03-24-2005, 09:56 PM
You are more than well on your way to having a very solid system. Let us know how you feel about it's music and movie performance when you finish getting it calibrated.

Nicholas Mosher
03-25-2005, 01:03 PM
Hmmmmm... mixed results.

First off, here are some pictures...
I loaned out my nice camera, so these are taken with my miniDV camcorder... :o
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/pb10isd-1.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/pb10isd-2.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/pb10isd-3.jpg

Initial Impressions.

After working most of the bugs out last night, I used AVIA to get the phase set. I also re-verified the fact that this sub hits a solid 20Hz, pretty impressive for such a "little" tyke. The enclosure is actually bigger than 90% of the enclosures at my local hifi store :p

The finish is pretty nice on it, with good seams, even better than the Ascend CBM-170s in my setup. In fact, the texture is almost identical to the Ascends. The RCA input on the back seems a bit small in diameter. My interconnect has a screw down compression collar that gives a white knuckle grip on my components, but even fully screwed down the connection on the SVS can still be rotated. The knobs for gain/phase are proper size and have a nice resistance to their movement.

My first movie had to be the DTS track on Master and Commander. Infamous "Chapter 4" has some good bass. I found that while the sub certainly captured the cannonfire, it was more like being punched by a boxing glove than a bare fist. It seemed to handle single cannonfire alone quite well, but when things got down and dirty with multiple cannons and the ship falling apart it fell into a slight rumble. The chest thumping impact was lost, and a room rumbling hum took over. I could still make out the individual cannon shots, but they were blended with the other impacts and seemed to lose their punch.

Next was Pod Racing, Episode I. I experienced similar things here. At 59:40 where they zoom in on the pod racer engines, the low-frequency drone blends perfectly with the higher frequency whine. The individual flybys also sounded good. But during complex bass scenes such as when the racer falls victim to sebulba at 64:06, the initial clarity falls into mushy rumble as the scene develops.

Lord of the Rings: FOTR. When Sauron's finger hits the ground at the beginning of the film, the PB10-ISD has no trouble capturing the impact, but it was more like being hit with a pillow than a fist. Still better than most subs I've heard that cost much more.

Lord of the Rings: ROTK. Frodos heart-beat in Mt. Doom was there in all its glory, but it was definetly loose. It also lacked the devastating impact like Saurons finger impact did in LOTR. The oliphant collision had similar results.

Onto some DVD-A/SACD...

Telarc's SACD Classical Sampler #2. Rondeau from Abdelazer with the Empire Brass Quartet and a Pipe Organ sounded great. The organ was very well fleshed out and I ended up repeating it 4 times I loved it so much. Beethoven's Symphony #9 by The Atlanta Symphony Orchestra/Chorus had good solo percussion hits, but when everything rolled together harmony became bass chaos. Just one loud rumble. Very dissapointed on this one.

Diana Krall: Love Scenes (DVD-A). Individual bass chords sounded a little too warm but were set aside as the real focus is Diana. Soon I grew used to it and didn't notice as much. Unfortunately during some fast sections the bass got congested and I lost that immersed feeling.

Sting: Brand New Day (DVD-A). There is alot of bass on this disc. This is when I first noticed the PB10 actually drawing attention to itself. On track one "A Thousand Years", I actually spent 4hrs trying 3 different spots in my room for the sub (and recalibrated every time :rolleyes: ), but I could still pick out the sub. I also tried running the sub at -3dB which helped a little, but still made the track all but un-listenable. Desert Rose was better, but also didn't have the same amount of bass.

More Thoughts
Compared to anything under $1000 I heard at my local shops, nothing can touch the PB10. It's extension is incredible for the price. During 90% of the films I watched, I was also happy with it. Its performance with pipe organs is also absolutely incredible. My enjoyment with it during DVD-A/SACD was less than satisfying unfortunately. The few annoying quirks it had during movies became magnified when all my attention was paid to the higher-rez audio. Fast heavy bass lacked clarity and impact. During real heavy bass playback, the PB10 also drew attention to itself regardless of location/level. It definetly has the capability to shake my room, but I'm looking for more than that.

I'm pretty critical of things, especially when I dole out hundreds of dollars for them. Often enough when I'm satisfied with things they go unsaid while I pick-apart other issues. The PB10-ISD is a good sub, but I was looking for a low-cost solution to my needs which apparently aren't going to be fulfilled with $475. I'm going to keep it a bit longer to see if I missed something, but I'm not leaning towards keeping it.

bikeman
03-25-2005, 03:40 PM
Do you have an SPL meter? Some of these issues could be the result of the room and not the sub. Only one way to find out. Graph it.
Thanks for the follow-up.

David

Lee Bailey
03-25-2005, 03:50 PM
Hey Nicholas, though I already posted this over at AVS, I'll add it here too. Be sure to check the screws on the driver for tightness. They should not be loose. Saw another post about someone with their PB10-ISD that had a similar problem with the way it sounded, and this resolved it for him.

Nicholas Mosher
03-25-2005, 08:03 PM
Screws are tight Lee.

I definetly have a few peaks an EQ could solve (discovered these when I ran tests using my Avia disc and SPL meter during setup yesterday), but even with the peaks I can still tell how loose the bass gets when the action gets intense. Its not just loud reverberant (sp?) bass, its bass that runs together and doesn't stop/start between seperate impacts. It also has trouble with peak hits and lacks impact in the infrasonics.

I've eMailed SVS about it. Hopefully they'll have some recommendations.

My room plot btw...
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/room.jpg

bikeman
03-26-2005, 04:04 AM
"I've eMailed SVS about it. Hopefully they'll have some recommendations."

That's the best stategy. My uneducated guess is room interactions and I'm sticking with it regardless of the evidence. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

David

Lou-the-dog
03-26-2005, 05:21 AM
Nicholas,

Have you tried pulling the sub out of the corner? Try moving it down the wall 6" at a time and see if quality improves.

Randy

curtis
03-26-2005, 08:21 AM
.....I can still tell how loose the bass gets when the action gets intense. Its not just loud reverberant (sp?) bass, its bass that runs together and doesn't stop/start between seperate impacts. It also has trouble with peak hits and lacks impact in the infrasonics.

Is this with music or movie material? Also, infrasonics really do not have "impact"....that hit in the chest type stuff is around the 30-40Hz region.

Eddie Horton
03-26-2005, 08:21 AM
I've seen you post in a couple of places about it lacking in the infrasonics. Maybe you want more output than a 10" sub can provide. This isn't a slam at the sub, but there's only so much you can do in the way of setup and calibration. It may be that you simply need to test a bigger sub.

metalaaron
03-26-2005, 09:29 AM
nicholas,

your critique and trials merit auditioning a different sub.

thanks for sharing your experiences. i have enjoyed reading your thoughts and reviews over the past couple of weeks.

Nicholas Mosher
03-26-2005, 10:00 AM
Its more noticeable in DVD-A/SACD because of the increased clarity/depth and the fact that 100% of my attention is on the audio. It does occur in movies though during serious bass scenes as I described above. Infrasonics are those frequencies that you feel inside you but can't hear. When I do frequency sweeps with the PB-10 you can begin to feel it around 22Hz, and during movies its that inaudible slam cannons and other big impacts make. I don't have any frequency tones burned to CD, but I can definetly feel the PB10 flirts with infrasonics. I'm going to try more room placements today.

Nicholas Mosher
03-26-2005, 03:04 PM
Here is my hand drawn FR graph. Its not exponentially compressed either (take note of this when reading the upper frequencies). All of my readings were adjusted using the RS SPL meter table SVS provided. Plenty of Peaks/Nulls to tame, but still not enough oomph below 20Hz.

I wasn't feeling that inaudible bone marrow/soul moving sensation at the sub 20Hz infrasonics. You could feel it a tiny bit, but it wasn't anything powerful and dropped off quickly with each step down in frequency.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/fr.JPG

You might need glasses for this one

EDIT: The link works off and on. My ISP sucks (verizon).

I'm working on a couple alternate placements recommended by Ron at SVS.

bikeman
03-26-2005, 03:21 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/fr.JPG


I'm working on a couple alternate placements recommended by Ron at SVS.

Good. That's one ugly curve. Good luck. I went through something very similar two months ago.

David

Lee Bailey
03-26-2005, 03:54 PM
Here's a link to an interesting PDF file about Sub Placement:
DIYSubwooferCalibration (http://www.homeacoustics.net/Pearls/Articles/DIY%20Subwoofer%20Calibration.pdf)

You may want to see if it gives you some ideas.

Lou-the-dog
03-26-2005, 04:51 PM
I really doubt that pulling the sub out of the corner will do much for the infrasonics...if anything it'll degrade this area of the spectrum. Hopefully you will find a placement that will improve your response and quality overall. I'm starting to agree with the others...you need to audition a larger sub. Look at the Hsu VTF3MkII for musicality and "pantleg flapping" performance.

Randy

metalaaron
03-26-2005, 05:36 PM
i notice a common trend w/ SVS subwoofers - a hump around the 20Hz region. not a bad thing, just an observation as claim to louder SPL in that region. in fact, i'd almost call it their signature really. they wouldn't be in business if they weren't satisfying customers. many many people like the SVS sound. it's also pretty cool to have direct contact with the folks that build these things. good luck getting that sort of help from a brand like paradigm.

Nicholas Mosher
03-26-2005, 06:10 PM
Ron suggested I move the PB10-ISD next to my couch.
Gain was increased to 75%. Recalibrated to +/- 1dB at 70dB with Avia.
Here are the results...
***All readings were modified using SVS' RS SPL meter table***

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/room.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/fr.JPG
(Same deal... open/close/open/close to get them to work)

An SPL increase of 9dB at 15Hz, my first null moved forward in the FR, and response between 60-85Hz flattened out. I have a Huge 97.5dB peak at 20Hz... :p

The infrasonics are definetly better. I'm still getting some rumbling during intense bass sections on SACD, and the PB10 is sticking out during some intense passages. Running it -3dB down helps a bit, but then I lose impact.

:confused: Last time I looked at the clock it was 2pm... now it's 9pm?!

Lou-the-dog
03-27-2005, 04:57 AM
Wow! Huge gain with that near-field position. How do you like the sub positioned this close? I've tried this before but couldn't get used to it. Seemed I could easily localize the bass.

Randy

bikeman
03-27-2005, 06:16 AM
Wow! Huge gain with that near-field position. How do you like the sub positioned this close? I've tried this before but couldn't get used to it. Seemed I could easily localize the bass.

Randy


I had the same experience. Way too easy to localize the sound with the sub nearfield. It showed my why two subs separated can be a good way to go. That can introduce other problems but with EQ it is sometimes doable. My sub is now six feet from the listening position and localization is much more managable. I can still tell it's on the left but nowhere near to the extent when it was next to the couch.

David

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 08:48 AM
Yeah I'm having troubles with localized bass as well. Now during pipe organ passages I can hear the PB10 struggling next to my couch, but the infrasonics presence is much better. Ron eMailed me today (on Easter, hows that for customer service!) and suggested I try a parametric EQ like the BFD before I make any decisions about returning/exchanging it.

curtis
03-27-2005, 08:52 AM
A parametric EQ will help without a doubt, but imagine what it could do with a sub that sounded better to you in the first place. :D

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 09:50 AM
I'm going to try a BFD parametric EQ. I'll use it to knock down that 60Hz peak, boost the 40Hz area a bit, and maybe play with cutting the 20Hz area some (although probably not because it will kill the infrasonics). This also will decrease the SPL of the Avia sub pink noise which will see me boosting the gain on the sub (which is already at 75%). I think I'm fast apoproaching the limits of the PB10-ISD.

I'm not sure that the HSU VTF-3 MKII would work for me anymore either (although that is just an assumption). I think I need something along the lines of the HSU tube subs (which apparently are no longer on their webpage) or a SVS 16-46 PC-Plus tuned to 12Hz. I really crave those infrasonics that add so much realism and depth. I can tell the PB10 is struggling below 20Hz, and I want something that does the deed with less effort. A larger driver with a bigger enclosure tuned lower with almost twice the power might do the trick (at twice the price :rolleyes: ).

Eddie Horton
03-27-2005, 10:07 AM
When choosing a sub tuned very low, keep in mind that you are giving up substantial output to get those infrasonics. A sub tuned to 20Hz will give you strong output down to about 16Hz when you factor in room gain, so something like the upcoming PB12/Plus, PB12/Ultra, or VTF-3 HO might do the trick better with their multiple tuning options. Also, I believe you are reaching the limits of the PB10. The BFD will show those limits quickly, so be careful. What I mean is, you hear people talking about how boosting frequencies is a bad idea, but if you instead cut all the peaks until you have a flat response then turn up the gain on the sub, you've done the same thing as if you had left the peaks alone and boosted the nulls with respect to amplifier head room. If you already have the gain turned up to 75% on the SVS, then you are going to need a bigger sub. That's not just my opinion, as I've seen this effect with my own two eyes when EQ'ing my HSU, and have read Wayne Pflughaupt's posts on this. He's much more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to this stuff, but when you think about it, it makes sense. Whether you're boosting a null or cutting peaks and cranking up the volume to compensate, you're going to burn more head room the louder you go. You need a bigger sub.

curtis
03-27-2005, 10:17 AM
FWIW, a VTF-3MKII is flat to 18Hz anechoicly in max extension tune.

The Hsu TN1220 is the best sub I have heard.....clean, well defined, and gets loowww. Dr. Hsu's philosophy is it has to sound good before playing low and loud. If either one compromises sound quality, it isn't worth it IMO.

Can you explain the craving for infrasonics? Down that low, there really is not a whole lot of information, and DVDs that do have them I really do not think benefit from extra definition. What are you listening to that is below 20Hz and what percentage of your listening has information that low.

If you want it all, and want to stick to SVS, I would look at the Ultra line.

bikeman
03-27-2005, 10:23 AM
"You need a bigger sub."

I think you're going to find this true with everything you've written, Nicholas. Everything Eddie wrote has been my experience with EQ.
I'm really enjoying you posting all your impressions. Keep it up. You may save me some time and expense when I decide to upgrade.

David

curtis
03-27-2005, 10:42 AM
You may save me some time and expense when I decide to upgrade.

I'm actually hoping you or Eddie will be in Los Angeles sometime soon to help me with a BFD for the same reasons. :)

I will probably break down and do it sometime this month in any case.

GaryB
03-27-2005, 11:07 AM
If you want it all, and want to stick to SVS, I would look at the Ultra line.A few months ago, when I was considering a more ambitious system than what I ultimately decided on, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted a real quantum leap in performance beyond the PB10 in an SVS powered sub, I'd have to go all the way up to the Ultra series - specifically the PC-Ultra (although a box-style PB12-Ultra is now also available for pre-order). These units, with their unique TV-12 driver, are pretty much universally acclaimed, even by SVS-haters.

This is a quote from some correspondence I had with Ron at the time, regarding the PC-Ultra:


Gary,

I’m painting my new SVS demo room out here in Colorado and listening to one right now.

If you can afford it, I promise you will never regret reaching for one. I’m not sure if there is a perfect subwoofer, but if there is, I’d argue this one should be on the list. Little floor space use, easy to move, nice looking, fantastic power reserves, and just utterly seamless and accurate on everything I’ve ever thrown at it. They are very very good.

I can have any SVS I want (as long as I snivel effectively ;^) and honestly I could be happy with one of these in all but the largest rooms you would ever put a single sub.

Ron
I'm very happy with my current system but am certainly enjoying reading about your experiences, Nicholas. I'm keeping an eye on this thread with great interest! http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

bikeman
03-27-2005, 11:27 AM
I'm actually hoping you or Eddie will be in Los Angeles sometime soon to help me with a BFD for the same reasons. :)

I can't wait to hear your reaction once you get it dialed in. That might put me over the edge to get the VTF-3.

David

P.S. Last time I was in L.A. was in 1970. We made a run from Tucson to S.F. and back. They tell me it was a hell of a ride. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/cool.gif http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

David

Eddie Horton
03-27-2005, 12:32 PM
Curtis, it's actually not that bad once you get going. It's doing all the research, printing out Sonnie Parker's guide, and doing the initial setup and charting that's time consuming. After you get rolling and get an understanding of how it works, it really does go fast. As a brief hijack and follow up, I will say that I'm still getting used to how it sounds for movies. I'd never watched a movie on a properly calibrated sub before, so I have years of bad sound etched in my brain that tells me what "normal" should sound like. For music, it hit me immediately that EQ'd was so much better that I wondered how I ever lived without it. For the life of me, I don't know why one sounded right from the get-go and one sounded not quite right at first. I guess it's because I was always a "music in the car" guy. Since getting married and settling down, I've only recently started listening to music at home. Nicholas, let us know how all this turns out. I'm really enjoying your reviews.

Lee Bailey
03-27-2005, 12:47 PM
Nicholas, what type of floor does your room use? Concrete or wood? Don't think anyone has asked that yet.

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 01:03 PM
Its an old victorian house. Wood.

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 01:25 PM
When choosing a sub tuned very low, keep in mind that you are giving up substantial output to get those infrasonics.I realize this, but given my room volume of <1500ft^3, I'm figuring there must be a sub that meets my requirements of handling infrasonics with authority at around 75-80dB, hitting those devastating peaks, and playing clean up far enough to blend with my 170s.
FWIW, a VTF-3MKII is flat to 18Hz anechoicly in max extension tune.I just don't think it will have the extension I'm looking for. It's not tuned for that type of extension from what I've read.
The Hsu TN1220 is the best sub I have heard.....clean, well defined, and gets loowww. Dr. Hsu's philosophy is it has to sound good before playing low and loud. If either one compromises sound quality, it isn't worth it IMO.I've definetly been looking at the reviews for this sub, but can't seem to find it on their webpage
Can you explain the craving for infrasonics?Listen to the Incredibles, 1812 Overture, most any pipe organ music, nukes, scenes in Lord of the Rings, etc with a sub that digs deep and then swap to one that struggles for 20Hz. The PB10 is the first sub I've heard under $1000 from playing at hifi shops that can belt out 86dB at 15Hz. Problem is I can tell its struggling when it does, and as I said, its a little muddy and draws attention to itself.
"You need a bigger sub."I'm thinking that a sub that has a similar (or slightly deeper) tuning point with a larger driver and bigger amp won't struggle as much. But I do need to get a reasonably flat FR as well which the BFD should help me do from what others have recommended.

curtis
03-27-2005, 02:35 PM
Nicholas....the VTF-3 is +-2dB at 18Hz in max extension mode, with useable output to 16Hz without room gain. When you say it is not tuned to "that type of extension" can you reference the information you are reading?

My room is larger than yours at just about 2100 cubic feet, and pipe organs at 16hz are fun...but I rarely go there. As for the Incredibles....do you have a graph of the information in the movie at 15Hz?

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 02:43 PM
Unless your sub can't dig that deep, you don't need a FR readout to tell if there is Bass around 15Hz (you can feel it in your bones). I did a quick search and found this. Pixar has some damn-fantastic bass in their soundtracks and effects!
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/708355/Main/707339

Just looking at the dimensions of the VTF3 MKII and the fact that its "Max Extension" tuning mode is for 18-20Hz, I'm looking at other options that are tuned for 16Hz or less. As was said above, this really cuts down on the max SPLs in higher frequencies, but I can always add another sub to help this in the future if need be.

Still going to try the BFD on my PB10 before I make any decisions though. Personally I don't care who the sub is made by, Walmart (although very much unlikely :D ) or Havasvsahsu, so long as it gives me the response I'm looking for. Again though, the Bass is nothing without fantastic midbass, midrange, and upper frequencies wrought so perfectly by the Ascends! ;)

bikeman
03-27-2005, 03:03 PM
"Still going to try the BFD on my PB10 before I make any decisions though."

The BFD is certain to smooth the FR but it's not going to do a thing about the bass you're looking for. The 10" SVS isn't capable of getting where you want to get. A sub tuned to 16hz, like the 16-46 is going to get you there. Physics is in the way of your goals and the PB10 and SVS will be the first to admit it.

David

curtis
03-27-2005, 03:09 PM
OK....now I see what you are getting at.

How loud are those 15Hz signals?

Unless you go with a higher end sub, tuning to lower will likely to cause you to give something up in the higher bass.

Regardless if who makes the sub...you are going to want a bigger one to get what you are craving. Unless you spend the money on a higher end sub, I think you are going to lose out on quality of the bass just to get the lower bass.

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 03:16 PM
...tuning to lower will likely to cause you to give something up in the higher bass.Absolutely true. In this case its maximum SPL in the mid-upper bass region, but a properly designed sub (which is what I'm paying for, any idiot can throw a driver in a box with an amp) should be just as clean in quality, and I expect it to be.

bikeman
03-27-2005, 03:47 PM
( any idiot can throw a driver in a box with an amp)

I'm still kicking around the idea of building my own sub so I take that personal. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

David

curtis
03-27-2005, 03:54 PM
Absolutely true. In this case its maximum SPL in the mid-upper bass region, but a properly designed sub (which is what I'm paying for, any idiot can throw a driver in a box with an amp) should be just as clean in quality, and I expect it to be.

It isn't just maximum SPL in that region...and that is not from me, that is from others that have owned a variety of subs. If it was the case, then why does an Ultra sub and a Plus sub sound different even when tuned the same? The same goes for a 25-31PC+ vs a 16-46PC+ in the upper bass region...they do not sound the same, given the same SPL which is at neither of their limits.

You are interested in sound quality, and all I am saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too unless you are willing to pay for it. There are trade-offs.

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 06:55 PM
Hmmm, I'll have to check into that Curtis.

Quinn
03-27-2005, 07:04 PM
There is always the Craigsub method of running two Rocket UFW-10 for the articulated music bass and whatever deep bass sub he's playing with at the time. I forget how he limits the deep subs to below ~30-35Hz and sends the rest to the UFW-10s.

curtis
03-27-2005, 07:16 PM
Hmmm, I'll have to check into that Curtis.

Nicholas....do a search on HTF for more info. I have had two different SVS subs in my home...and two different Hsu subs.

FWIW, nobody runs their subs to max SPL all the time.

Heck...if you really want to save your money for a while...save for something like the ACI Maestro.

Quinn
03-27-2005, 07:57 PM
I think Nicholas needs to look into infinite baffle subs too. http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/


If you own your house and have a basement below or a attic above your listening space. I think it is the way for you to go. It will give you the depth and the speed you want at an affordable price.

Nicholas Mosher
03-27-2005, 08:37 PM
Quinn I live in a 1st floor apartment, but pretty much have the freedom to go as loud as I want a few hours in the evening, and all day on weekends. I usually keep peaks under 100dB anyways... :D :rolleyes: :p

bikeman
03-28-2005, 05:20 AM
I think Nicholas needs to look into infinite baffle subs too. http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/

Thanks for the link, Quinn. I'm going to explore this route.

David

Master Bass
03-28-2005, 09:39 AM
Nicholas, Nicholas, Nicholas, let me educate you on why you are not satisfied :D

The PB10 does not satisfy you because it does not have quite have the hardware to live up to the lofty ideals of very loud and clean low bass output. The PB10's tuning point is plenty low enough, ~18Hz-19Hz, so that is not the issue. The main issue is that low frequency output is limited by the 3" port, the 10" driver, and the amplifier limiter on the BASH amp. With the 3" (i.d.) port, port compression and port noise becomes an issue when the subwoofer is pushed at low frequencies. The 10" driver can only move so much air to contribute to low frequency output. The amp limiter allows one to crank up the volume without the driver bottoming, but limits some dynamics. Physics is not on your side unfortunately.

In my opinion, the PB10isd would have sounded better if they chose a higher tuning point. In aiming for extremely low frequency response, they were forced to limit the overall dynamics of the subwoofer. That is why it has no better dynamic output characteristics than other smaller and comparably priced subwoofers on the market over the 25-80Hz operating range.

From the commercial side, your best bet would be to scoop up a VTF-3HO when it is available. This is supposed to have double the output of a TN_1220_HO. The TN_1220_HO is tuned to slightly less than 18Hz according to the manual, and this is just about the perfect tuning frequency because pipe organ music tends not to have major fundamental frequencies below this. Forget about the 16Hz tuning or less idea. You would need a super expensive and super long excursion driver, and super large enclosure just to keep up with such a low tune, and even then it just would not pay off since source material tends not to go below 17Hz with any authority in the first place.

So the VTF-3HO should be tuned very near 18Hz, if not a little lower, and will be twice as good as the TN1220HO. The VTF-3 m2 might work well too, because it can be used with a *turbo* in development by Hsu Research. Turbo means maximum porting available in lowest tune. From a physics perspective towards moving air cleanly, that is awesome. Move from a VTF-3 m2 to a turbo m2, and you will probably double your clean low bass output. So a single VTF-3 m2 might not cut the mustard for you in lowest tune with only one 3" port available, but with a turbo it sure as hell would.

You can't go wrong building your own either, but it will be difficult for a DIY design to match the VTF-3HO *turbo* in the same size enclosure.

Nicholas Mosher
03-28-2005, 09:45 AM
It says you need to isolate one side of the "bass wall" into another room. Guys, I live in an apartment.. :)

I could see my landlords face when I ask him, "Yeah, I'd like to build in an infinite baffled subwoofer into my wall, or maybe the hallway. D'ya mind?"... :D :p

When is this "turbocharged" Hsu coming out? Is this going to be some electrically driven compressor? I love the words these subwoofer guys use... "Ultra" woofers and "turbocharged" subs. I oughtta make a Isotope U235 room destructor... pro. :rolleyes:

bikeman
03-28-2005, 09:51 AM
Nicholas, Nicholas, Nicholas, let me educate you on why you are not satisfied :D

Peter? That you, Peter? http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

David

Master Bass
03-28-2005, 09:52 AM
Who is Peter? Peter Piper picked a pack of... :D

The *turbo* is an external unit that attaches onto the rear ports of the sub. Port length is extended, box volume is increased, so now you have more porting at the lowest tune. This was all explained somewhere on another forum by some people who went to the Hsu Research booth at International exhibit.

Quinn
03-28-2005, 10:22 AM
Peter Marcks would indentify himself. Craig? DDavidson? Tdekany? Boss o Bass? Who ever it is has real sub design knowledge and understanding.

I suspect that the Hsu HOs will include DSP and that is why the evasive non-answer on the HSU forum from that person finding the DSP developer's announcement of working on it with Hsu. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1517

Also, we keep hearing two patents for the HO sub but the "turbo charger" seems to be the only one that has been disclosed. DSP could be the second if it is new software.

I think summer is still the timeline for release of the HO line.

Master Bass
03-28-2005, 11:13 AM
IIRC, the second patentpending technology is in regards to the ports used on the VTF-3HO. Hsu Research seems to be extremely tight lipped about this one. Having seen some pictures of the VTF-3HO subs, it looks like the flares are different than what was used on the TN_1220_HO, even though both are 4" (i.d.) ports. These flares look even larger than the flares on the SVS dual driver subwoofers which also have 4" i.d. ports (SVS appears to be using Precision Ports with flares, available at places like Parts Express). This could be part of the patent, but that is pure speculation on my part.

Quinn
03-28-2005, 11:25 AM
Yes, that does jog my memory that one of the pending patents is related to the ports.

Eddie Horton
03-28-2005, 12:16 PM
With all these new models coming out like the VTF3-HO from HSU, the PB12-Plus, Ultra, and ISDv from SVS, and the UFW-12 from Schifter and Co., the sub market is gonna get interesting over the next few months. Throw in the Velodyne Eq system and the rumored HSU DSP and it really starts to get fun. I need to start saving now.

curtis
03-28-2005, 12:25 PM
reads like a lot of birth control devices. :D

Master Bass
03-28-2005, 01:29 PM
The PB12U is essentially a PC-U in a box shape. Performance between these two should be about the same. The exact same goes with the PB12+ and (20Hz tuned) PC+. The PB12Iv does not have a cylinder equivalent, but is somewhere between the (20Hz tuned) PCi and (20Hz tuned) PC+ in performance.

UFW12 should be well more than double the output of the UFW10.

VTF3HO *turbo* should be double the output of the TN_1220_HO.

Output-wise, VTF3HO wins, given the above.

Lou-the-dog
03-28-2005, 04:11 PM
Anybody know what the target pricepoint is for the VTF3-HO?? If not too far out of line me thinks this might be my next upgrade. Love my VTF3MkII so I'm sticking with the Hsu line for sure.

Randy

Nicholas Mosher
03-28-2005, 05:04 PM
BFD should arrive Wednesday! I sure am glad I didn't pay an extra $15 for 2-Day Air... :p

Lou-the-dog
03-28-2005, 05:22 PM
Where did you purchase your BFD? With all this talk I may have to take the plunge too.

Randy

Nicholas Mosher
03-28-2005, 05:28 PM
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-656&ctab=6#Tabs

On sale!

curtis
03-28-2005, 06:47 PM
Randy, I just got one off of eBay for $91 delivered.

Mag_Neato
03-28-2005, 08:15 PM
Curtis.......

Did you get one on MY account?

I hope to have mine by mid April........my son is pushing hard for an XBOX, so that will be another piece of equipment to find a home for!

Nicholas Mosher
03-29-2005, 01:32 PM
I've been chatting with Ed Mullen on another forum. He wrote the review for the SVS PB10-ISD for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html
He recommended I isolate the sub from my floor so I engaged in a little project today.

Here she is! :p
I also tried it in various combinations of materials.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/submount.JPG

Using eveything shown in the picture, transmission of the lower frequencies into the floor was cut by about 2/3 to 75% I'd say. I didn't notice any improvement in the sound, but I did feel this made the bass even more localized. With it sitting on the floor, it seemed to blend into the background better. Without this partnership it sticks out like a sore thumb during intensive bass passages. I tested it out with a few SACDs along with the intro to LOTR: FOTR, SW: E1 (Pod Races), and chapter 4 of M&C. To be honest, I actually prefer the transmission of the low frequencies into the floor during movies. It really makes the explosions much more involving, especially during chapter 4 of M&C with cannon shots on the ship.

I can understand it's benefit during music though. I'm going to go back to setting the sub on the floor, but I will try the isolation footing again once it's EQd with the BFD.

Lee Bailey
03-29-2005, 01:47 PM
I don't think he intended for it to be that high off the floor! Try it just sitting on the concrete.

Nicholas Mosher
03-29-2005, 01:49 PM
I did, along with about 3 other arrangements. The results were all the same to different degrees.

Lou-the-dog
03-29-2005, 06:23 PM
I bet your landlord would vote for the isolation project! :D

Randy

Nicholas Mosher
03-29-2005, 06:29 PM
I bet your landlord would vote for the isolation project! :D

Randy
Hahahaha! :p :rolleyes:
I'm suprised I haven't seen this already... ->http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/rant.gif

Between pipe organs and Frodo's heartbeat I thought I'd have company by now!

Nicholas Mosher
03-30-2005, 09:31 AM
Twiddling my thumbs and waiting for the BFD.
I have one of those UPS guys that runs to your door with the "So Sorry You Weren't Here" yellow tags, throws it on your porch, and runs back to the truck peeling out down the driveway...I don't even live in a bad neighborhood?!

I have to keep a sharp eye out... :rolleyes:

bikeman
03-30-2005, 09:44 AM
Twiddling my thumbs and waiting for the BFD.
I have one of those UPS guys that runs to your door with the "So Sorry You Weren't Here" yellow tags, throws it on your porch, and runs back to the truck peeling out down the driveway...I don't even live in a bad neighborhood?!
I have to keep a sharp eye out... :rolleyes:

I had this problem everywhere I lived until we bought this house two years ago. Now, my regular UPS guy will always leave packages on the front porch. He even leaves my neighbors packages on my porch if they're not home. Of course when the Ascend's were delivered, I was camped out on the porch. Wasn't taken any chances on that. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

David

curtis
03-30-2005, 10:00 AM
I am also anxiously awaiting your BFD. Gathering information for when I have the time to work with mine.

BFD gurus, as far as what is needed to hook the thing up.....a couple 1/4" to RCA adapters and another sub cable....right?

Nicholas Mosher
03-30-2005, 10:00 AM
Well I guess I can call off the lookout... :mad:
Parts Express told me "Wednesday at the latest!".
Just received the tracking number... Tomorrow... http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/rant.gif

I need to go buy some new SACDs. Now that my mind is set on getting something today, I will dammit! :p

Waiting sucks. :rolleyes:

Mag_Neato
03-30-2005, 12:28 PM
Curtis.....

From what I have been told, you need to go from your LFE-out to a RCA-to-1/4" adaptor into the BFD, and a 1/4"-to-RCA adaptor from the BFD-out to another patch cord to your sub.

I'm hopefully going to pick up my BFD in the next week or two!

bikeman
03-30-2005, 12:31 PM
"BFD gurus, as far as what is needed to hook the thing up.....a couple 1/4" to RCA adapters and another sub cable....right?"

The adapters for sure. I just used a regular RCA cable from the receiver to the BFD. Then I used my sub cable from the BFD to the sub.

David

curtis
03-30-2005, 12:32 PM
thanks Ed.....that's how I understand it too.

guess I will have to order another shorter rca/sub cable from BlueJeans.

Nicholas Mosher
03-31-2005, 08:19 PM
My ears have never been so worn out in my life! :eek:
I used all cuts, no bumps.

I left a small ramp starting at 20Hz scaling down 5dB to 50Hz.
FR from 50Hz to 85Hz is +/- 0.5dB.
I have a small +1.5dB blip at 90Hz, but then it flattens back out through 105Hz.
The one thing that erks me is a small valley from 105Hz to 115Hz, oh well.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/bfd.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/frbfd.JPG

Because I'm in a 1500ft^3 room, I had no problems with red blips & clipping on the BFD. I still have the PB10s gain knob at 75%, although I boosted the volume via my pre/pro by 4dB. Darla tapping the fishtank in little nemo at 95dB yielded 1 or 2 green bars, thats it.

I could immediately tell the difference once that 65Hz peak was knocked down. (I listened to movies after every 2 or 3 filters) Less humble-bumble during intense action scenes. The subwoofer also blended-in except for a few extreme passages. I originally left the 20Hz peak, but it was so much higher than the rest of the curve that I had to bring it down some, it just didn't sound/feel right. Unfortunately this seemed to really hurt the infrasonics. While scenes like the ring drop and frodos heartbeat are present, they don't have the same ultra-low bone-shaking phenomena. I was getting a little-bit of that before, but now its almost nil.

As far as music is concerned, I'm going to listen some more tomorrow before I respond.

At $100 the BFD so far is an incredible piece of gear! I was lucky to have one spare Outlaw RCA cable, but I got hosed $5 for 2 RCA/phono adapters at Shack of the Rat.

More tomorrow...

Mag_Neato
04-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Looks good!

What guide did you use? (Snapbug, etc.)

I took some measurements yesterday. There's a gig, nasty peak of +19db at one point. What's the max. cut/boost available with the BFD?

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 08:21 AM
I used Sonnys guide (snapbug).

I think the limits are like +15/-45 or something. I'm too lazy to check... :D

Mag_Neato
04-01-2005, 09:54 AM
I looked at the BFD manual online........you are close enough for government work!

It is +14/-48, plenty of cut for my peaks!

I used the Rives test CD 2 which includes both linear(flat) test tones and a duplicate, modified set of tones which allows the Radio Shack meter to read accurate without the need to convert the readings.....slick!

I was a bit surprised at some of the peaks. No wonder I feel things could be drastically improved! I have one at 31.5 and 62hz which are fairly big. It read flat(80db) at 25hz, and was down approx. -18db at 20hz.........my sub is ported and is only rated to 24hz.

I can't wait to get the BFD in the system and knock down those peaks.

bikeman
04-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Hey, Mag. Do you have the opportunity to experiment with positioning? I found that to be a big factor. I found a better position for the sub and that made the work with the BFD much less complicated.

David

Mag_Neato
04-01-2005, 10:24 AM
I am pretty much stuck with the subs current position.......right front corner.

WAF, kids and present room layout limit where it is. :(

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 11:19 AM
Ed said that 60Hz peak is induced by the height of the room I think. Thats the biggest difference I noted with the BFD. Alot of things cleared up after chopping that 60Hz peak.

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 12:30 PM
MMMM... Cooking Tater Tots... smell.... good...

Okay, I just spent some time listening to some music. Definite improvements.

Diana Krall: Love Scenes DVD-A
The PB10 blends nice and smooth with my Ascend Acoustics 170's now. Double Bass chords are spectacular for the most part. At the beginnings of "Lost Mind" and "My Love Is" there are real fast notes that make the PB10 stick out. They start and stop fast and are fairly loud. The PB10 can't seem to do these without bringing attention to itself. With everything else it simply blended in and seamlessly supported the main 5 channels. Definite improvement, I listened to it for about 1/2hr I loved it so much.

Eagles: Hotel California DVD-A
I dunno, but those kick-drums in "Hotel California" sound like elephant farts :D. Maybe it's just the mixing itself, but they sound god awful. The sub hits, sticks out in the room, and goes into a real low rumble. I'd appreciate if another AVS member who has this disc could take a listen and tell me what they here. Track 1.

Sting: Brand New Day
As track one opens there is a low droning of Bass that sets the mood. Very cool. Then comes these loud bass hits which suffer the same way they did while listening to Diana Krall. The hits make the sub immediately stick out, and they don't seem to be handled with authority. They seem loose or something. Track 5 has similar troubles. Overall the BFD made a gigantic improvement. Before I couldn't even stand listening to this disc, I felt like I was in some 16yr olds car with everything going MMMMM a BMMMMMM BMMMMMMM. :p It sounds ok now, but again, not completely up to my expectatrions.

Telarc SACD Sampler #2
This has to be my favorite demo disc. It has everything! I started off with pipe organs. The PB10 fleshes them out nicely, but doesn't have those infrasonics I'm looking for. Lots of drums on tracks 2 & 7. Things are MUCH more clear. The droning has been reduced by about 80% I'd say. Again though, that ultra-low gut-twisting effect of those huge impacts that comes at the end of a drum blast almost like a whip-lash aren't there. Similar hits like I mentioned above make the PB10 stand out a bit though.

I think I would benefit from a lower crossover, say 60Hz, or possibly placing the sub on the front soundstage as Ed recommended. I'm still baffled by those kick drums though. God! I'm definetly looking at lower tuned subs like the SVS 16-46 PC-Plus. Another thing I've noticed thats weird around 20Hz is how the bass feels. Its almost like you can feel the sub struggling at high volume at those frequencies. The bass no longer feels like smooth pressure, its almost as though the sub is struggling and you can feel the 10" driver screaming. Going to make some tweaks here and there over the weekend before I call SVS up to try something else.

I don't want to come off sounding like I'm putting this sub down though. As I said previously, I haven't experienced this kind of bass before in anything less than $1000 at my two local hifi shops. Its just that after experiencing some of the $3000 subs there, I'm hoping for that same experience at 1/3 the price. I feel that I've achieved this type of value with my Ascend Acoustics 170s and $700 Outlaw Pre/Pro, I'm just looking for another value along these lines that meets my needs.

Oh, and two thumbs up on the BFD! What a great piece of gear for $100! Another stone-cold bargain.

curtis
04-01-2005, 07:10 PM
Eagles: Hotel California DVD-A
I dunno, but those kick-drums in "Hotel California" sound like elephant farts . Maybe it's just the mixing itself, but they sound god awful. The sub hits, sticks out in the room, and goes into a real low rumble. I'd appreciate if another AVS member who has this disc could take a listen and tell me what they here. Track 1.

I do not have the DVD-A version, but I do have the "Hell Freezes Over" Live in DTS......have not listenned to it in a while, but the kick drums are incredible. I will popped it in when the kids are taking a bath.

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 07:17 PM
I have HFO on CD, but I was just curious about the DVD-A studio version of the song Hotel California. Man the bass on that sounds terrible. I'm wondering if its the mixing/recording or my sub.

curtis
04-01-2005, 07:20 PM
how does it compare to the track on the HFO CD? I wonder how the CD version differs from the DTS version.

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 07:43 PM
LOL, ok let me try and be more clear.

There are...
Hell Freezes Over (Live) DVD-V DD5.1
Hell Freezes Over (Live) DVD-V DTS & DD5.1
Hell Freezes Over (Live) DVD DTS5.1 (Audio Only)
Hell Freezes Over (Live) CD 2ch

Hotel California (Studio) CD 2ch
Hotel California (Studio) 5.1 DVD-A

"Hotel California" is also the name of one of their original albums (that also includes the song Hotel California. This original album was remixed into the 5.1 DVD-A format. Thats what I'm referring to with the elephant farts in Track 1, "Hotel California". :D

curtis
04-01-2005, 07:47 PM
Dude...I am 40 years old.....born and raised in SoCal. I know the Eagles and Hotel California legacy very well. :D

What I am wondering is how does the 2 channel studio mix sound compared to the 5.1 DVD-A remix?

Now....I can't find my HFO disc!

curtis
04-01-2005, 08:00 PM
the remix to 5.1 is are the same masters....so I am wondering if the elephant farting is in the 2-channel mix as well.

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 08:10 PM
Yeah they use the same masters so I guess it should be similar. Its just that this is my first "real" sub at home, and have never heard the after effects of the kick drum hit I'm hearing now. I'm curious if this really sounds this crappy, or its the sub/setup. It sounds horrible :p

Listening to Phillip Glass' Koyannisqatsi belting out some real low notes with a pipe organ. The PB10 really does seem to struggle when I ask it to belt out these notes. Then again 90% of subs I've heard can't produce them at all. This is becoming a pain in the @$$... :rolleyes: :p

PS>I don't have Hotel California on redbook, only Hell Freezes Over.

curtis
04-01-2005, 08:30 PM
PS>I don't have Hotel California on redbook, only Hell Freezes Over.
Oh....OK....that's my misunderstanding. Was hoping if we could make an educated guess that the 5.1 mix is funky.

From reading your thread on AVS, you are going to try the 16-46. With that, you will get your low bass, but I think you are going to loose your punch in the upper bass. It will be interesting to read your impressions.

You whole trial has been a great education for many that are following. We need to get you to try more things so we can continue to read your impressions. :)

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 09:34 PM
I just chatted via eMail/forum with Ron from SVS. I'll be upgrading my PB10-ISD to the 16-46 PC+. The PC-Ultra is only a couple hundred more, but Ed Mullen says it won't go deep with the same authority of the 16-46 PC+, even in 12Hz mode. Plus I'm pushing my budget for this upgrade as is... :B
The 16-46PC+ is deeper and far far more powerful than your PB10-ISD. Where the latter starts to compress a deep peak, the PC+ will slice right thru it. The low group delay and unstressed nature of a driver and amp and ports that are all loafing, instead of pressed to their limits will be revealing.My room places emphasis on the 50Hz+ frequencies, so I'm not too worried about not having enough peak headroom in that range. If anything I would be worried about that null my room creates between 35Hz and 45Hz. Given the fact that I'm going with a 2" larger driver with over 200W more power I'm not all that concerned... :p

We'll see though. As you can see I'm not one to fib about my experiences just because I dumped money into them. If I don't like it, I'll ship that one back too. I would like to note that SVS is going to pick up the return shipping costs on the PB10-ISD, something they don't have to do.

curtis
04-01-2005, 09:58 PM
That's great...they have great customer service.

Eventhough I have had my run-ins with Ron and Tom, I know they make good products and put their heart and soul into their business.

Will they let you compare the two side by side before shipping one of them back? That will make it extremely easy for you to tell the differences then. I have been lucky enough to do that with 4 different subs in my home. Human sonic memory is terrible.

Remember something about wattage and amps...especially when it comes to subs. All things being equal, it take twice the amplifier wattage to get a 3dB increase in SPL. The bigger driver and enclosure are making much difference than the extra power with the 16-46.

Wish you lived closer....I'd be very tempted to haul over my VTF-3.

Looks like we have more good reading coming from you! :)

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 10:12 PM
So far their customer service has been spectacular, just like Outlaw Audio's, and Ascend Acoustics'. Internet retailers have been spectacular. I can't say the same for Denon or Rotel... :p
Will they let you compare the two side by side before shipping one of them back?I dunno. I really don't need to remember much. This sub simply doesn't have the authority over big hits, or the extension I'm looking for. The next one either will or it won't.

I'll definetly give my opinion of the next unit too.
Off to bed for me... it's after 1am EST...http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/tired.gif

curtis
04-01-2005, 10:31 PM
So far their customer service has been spectacular, just like Outlaw Audio's, and Ascend Acoustics'. Internet retailers have been spectacular. I can't say the same for Denon or Rotel... :pI dunno. I really don't need to remember much. This sub simply doesn't have the authority over big hits, or the extension I'm looking for. The next one either will or it won't.

I'll definetly give my opinion of the next unit too.
Off to bed for me... it's after 1am EST...http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/tired.gif

Great....I will be very interested on your thoughts of the articulation and definition from the sub.

Hey wait a second...when do you start your new job? That is going to dig into your posting/testing time! :D

Nicholas Mosher
04-01-2005, 10:40 PM
I'm still up... http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/tired.gif
I have 2wks semi-retirement left.
I start the 14th (a Thursday).
I have to work days a couple weeks before I go on 2nd/3rd shift... :mad:

I hate getting up at 5am... :mad:

GaryB
04-02-2005, 11:53 AM
Great stuff, Nicholas. Based on your expressed needs/wants and budget, I think you're getting exactly the right unit in the 16-46 PC+. If it doesn't make you happy, I'm not sure what your alternatives would be. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Looking forward to your impressions...

bikeman
04-02-2005, 12:49 PM
16-46 PC+. If it doesn't make you happy, I'm not sure what your alternatives would be. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Looking forward to your impressions...

That's easy. TWO 16-46 PC+'s. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

David

Lee Bailey
04-02-2005, 01:01 PM
Nicholas, I'm glad to see you are going 'tubular' with the next sub. You'll take a step back when you get it unpacked. I just have the 25-31PC and it is pretty large as well (you can see what it looks like next to my 340s on my site), yours will be over a foot taller. At least it doesn't take up as much footprint, being only 16 inches around. Of course now, it won't only the landlord you need be concerned with, but the neighbors! :D

Nicholas Mosher
04-03-2005, 10:10 PM
That's easy. TWO 16-46 PC+'s. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

David
Hahahaha... hopefully this will be the one... :D

Nicholas, I'm glad to see you are going 'tubular' with the next sub. You'll take a step back when you get it unpacked. I just have the 25-31PC and it is pretty large as well (you can see what it looks like next to my 340s on my site), yours will be over a foot taller. At least it doesn't take up as much footprint, being only 16 inches around. Of course now, it won't only the landlord you need be concerned with, but the neighbors!
Cool site Lee! I just boxed up the PB10-ISD and printed out the pre-paid UPS label SVS sent me. Going to drop it off at the UPS store tomorrow then call up SVS and pay the difference+shipping for the 16-46 PC+. I can't wait to try this one!

Nicholas Mosher
04-04-2005, 11:33 AM
Just talked to Erik at SVS, he told me to call back in a few days once they receive it. Then they will credit my account, charge me for the new sub, and ship out my 16-46 PC+. I'll probably get it sometime next week.

Oh the waiting... :( :D

I just got a butt-load of DVD-As and SACDs in the mail today though... :eek:

Lee Bailey
04-04-2005, 02:33 PM
Just talked to Erik at SVS, he told me to call back in a few days once they receive it. Then they will credit my account, charge me for the new sub, and ship out my 16-46 PC+. I'll probably get it sometime next week.

Oh the waiting... :( :D

I just got a butt-load of DVD-As and SACDs in the mail today though... :eek:

Yes, the waiting is always the hardest part. At least you can still listen to music, even without pants-flapping bass.

Eddie Horton
04-04-2005, 04:59 PM
Read on another forum where Ron Stimpson of SVS said he would make sure Nick's new 16-46 would ship tomorrow. Regardless of where you stand on the "which sub rules?" debate, you gotta admit that customer service like that is why we love internet direct so much.

curtis
04-04-2005, 05:17 PM
That is great service. Does SVS do that for everyone?

Nicholas Mosher
04-04-2005, 05:41 PM
Woo-hoo!
Just emptied my checking account!
The SVS 16-46 PC+ is on its way!
It's Ramen noodles and orange soda until Wednesday!
http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/party.gifhttp://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/band.gifhttp://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/popcorn.gif

EDIT: Just found a case of Amber Woodchuck Draft Cider in the bottom of my fridge... everything is ok!

curtis
04-04-2005, 05:54 PM
LOL!!! You can make it!! I once lived a month on bagel dogs when I was in college.....two days of ramen would have been a welcome change. :D

Hmmm...an Ultra at half price would be a nice upgrade!

Nicholas Mosher
04-04-2005, 06:25 PM
When I was going to school for engineering I pretty much lived on "Lipton Chemical Chicken Flavored Noodles" and peas. We also had this great local farmers market that everyone would raid (UMass Amherst is completely surrounded by farms).

curtis
04-04-2005, 06:56 PM
My brother and his family live in Amherst. My sister-in-law is a prof. at Amherst University.
edit: I guess it would be UMass Amherst?

Nicholas Mosher
04-04-2005, 07:07 PM
Cool! I live about 40mins away (use to live about 15mins away). I still go to near-by Hadley for movies at their Cinemark. Phenomenal theater!

I never finished school though. I was working part-time in a near-by lab at an industrial wastewater plant (paying my own way through school) when I was offered a good paying job during my sophomore year. I'm not really the engineering type anyways. I love the science/mathematics/design side of it, but hate the economics involved (which was a larger part of engineering than I knew before I started). :rolleyes:

Oh well. I'm hopefully starting school again in the fall at Fitchburg State taking some classes in Spanish & French for my own learning desire. I'll be a grampa or mistaken super-senior at 23yrs old! :p

gr1m
04-04-2005, 08:45 PM
*Anyone ordering from Erik at SVS tonight should tell him Ron said all products are 50% off until midnigh*

for real??

Nicholas Mosher
04-04-2005, 08:58 PM
No, no not really no. :p

:mad: = you now... :D

Nicholas Mosher
04-05-2005, 09:24 AM
Scheduled delivery is this Thursday! :eek:

I should have some initial thoughts up Thursday night... :D

Nicholas Mosher
04-07-2005, 12:14 PM
Continued here...
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=905