DVD-A vs SACD

[Nicholas Mosher]

I was looking to get Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" to experience her voice, and backup jazz bass. I see its available on both DVD-A and SACD. Which is better?

[Nicholas Mosher]

Amazon listed only 1 DVD-A version left so I went with that one. I also ordered the LAGQ - Guitar Heroes SACD. I want to here what all the fuss is about.

[Ben_Wood]

I so far have enjoyed DVD-As more than SACDs. It might be because of the selection of discs I own; however, SACDs are being released at a far higher rate than DVD-As now so all this is subject to change.

[Nicholas Mosher]

LAGQ - Guitar Heroes... Wow.
Can you say "perfect surround mix"? With a guitar in each speaker (FL, FR, SL, SR) and the occassional odd instrument in the center, its as though you are sitting right in the middle of the band. There is a very small mix in the adjacent speaker, and the smallest hint in the furthest speaker. The SACD format really does this type of recording with acoustic guitars justice. You can hear their hands moving up and down the frets, the sharp onset of a strong pluck, and the change in vibration characteristics as they let pressure off the string/fret. The guitar's body is really fleshed out. The timing of the quartet and how they interweave with one another is spectacular. "Aire para un dia" is incredible as is "Lament and Wake". William Kanengiser in the FR channel is ungodly nimble. An absolute must own for anyone with SACD capabilities.

Diana Krall - Love Scenes.
Very impressed with Diana herself along with the backup instruments, not so impressed with the mixing. I went into this expecting an intimate setting. Some songs had a real softness and warmth to the backup (which I'm not a big fan of but can understand in this circumstance). What really suprised me was the ambiance. It almost sounds like you are in a large hall rather than a cozy room. For "Love Songs" I found this out of place. Other than that I found the DVD-A to be quite relaxing, and her voice is simply incredible. Thick and controlled are the two best words I can think of to describe it. "Gentle Rain", "How deep is the Ocean", and "My Love Is" are my favorites so far.

[curtis]

Now contrast Diana Krall's voice to that of her husband's, Elvis Costello. :D

[Nicholas Mosher]

I was shown the following link at another forum...
http://interprod5.imgusa.com/son-637/sacd_story.asp

I think I will opt for DSD SACDs over DVD-A in the future.

[curtis]

Well...remember...that is a marketing site for SACD. Do your homework on DVD-A too.

One thing I think DVD-A has over SACD is sampling rate.

[jimsiff]

I'm new to multichannel audio so I haven't formed much of an opinion at this point. Here's a link that talks about some interesting things in the SACD vs. DVD-A debate.

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

Some interesting points:

1) SACD is higher resolution below 5-10khz than CD, but potentially marginally worse between that and 20khz.

2) SACD music is recorded, edited and mastered in PCM. Wouldn't DVD-A be a purer transition from the studio to the consumer hifi system? PCM Master>DVD-A>PCM>DAC>Speaker vs. PCM Master>SACD>DSD>PCM (optional, depends on player quality/bass management)>DAC>Speaker.

3) Ultrasonic noise is much higher in SACD than DVD-A. The noise floor on DVD-A is -144db through 100khz.

I don't know enough to say which is better. All I know is I want to try both.

[jimsiff]

Here's another but more technical article about SACD vs. DVD-A.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sacd-dvd-a/

"Comparative audition of a wide range of DVD-A and SACD records on the equipment of the sufficiently high level* does not allow to give preference to one of the formats, the difference depends considerably on the mastering quality, and actually does not really depend on the format as such. Taking into account the above analysis and the theoretical DVD-A dynamic range reserve, we can assume that the DVD-A format has not yet fully realized its potential in the modern equipment, while SACD is close to its maximum capacity. But nevertheless, at present this capacity allows the sound quality quite sufficient (with a correct approach) to satisfy the audiophiles' requirements."

They conclude that both formats offer good enough SQ to satisfy audiophiles, but DVD-A has room to grow.

"After the SADiE system was launched, based on the E-chip idea, the entire DSD stream mastering is possible without the PCM conversion, and thus the problem of quality loss in discs disappears."

It also seems that the PCM Master>SACD issue will be diminishing as DSD mastering becomes more prevalant in studios.

Just give me a universal player and let the format war sort itself out. :D

[Nicholas Mosher]

Yeah I guess I should look into it more... :D

To be honest both formats sound incredible. Sometimes a single title comes out in both formats though. I assume they have the same mixes right?

[jimsiff]

It also seems that the PCM Master>SACD issue will be diminishing as DSD mastering becomes more prevalant in studios.

http://www.ambisonic.net/sacdvdada.html

Well, now I'm confused. This article says that even DSD mastering converts to a quasi-PCM for DSP processing like EQ, etc. This article also mentions that SACD may be superior to DVD-A for capturing live performances where no mixing/EQ work will occur between the original master and the final product, ie: classical recordings and other live performances.

[jimsiff]

Sometimes a single title comes out in both formats though. I assume they have the same mixes right?

I would say that if a title comes out on both formats at the same time they probably used the same mix and master. Even though a release may use the same mix and master, the recording levels of the CD vs. DVD-A vs. SACD may be different if all formats aren't transfered at the same levels. For instance, the Diana Krall "The Look of Love" release is about 4 db quieter on SACD than DVD-A. If it's a re-release all bets are of IMO... although I don't know if there's been any SACD or DVD-A releases that were subsequently released in the other format at a much later date.

There was an interesting article (http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/DVD-A_vs_SACD_digitalaudio.php) on Audioholics that talks about SACD vs DVD-A vs. CD. There were initial impressions that the CD and DVD-A of Diana Krall's album were audibly clipped in many places while the SACD was not. Chris Tham, the author was initially critical of DVD-A as being inferior to SACD. He seemed to recant that tone at the end of the article with a "late breaking news" note that said his test machines (Panny RP82 and Denon 2200) couldn't properly handle 0 db peaks and treated it as a clipped signal. The reason the SACD didn't have this problem is it's peaks were -6 db thus never hitting the 0 db flaw many players have.

All the information I posted in this thread were from links on the first page of an "SACD vs. DVD-A" search on Google. Try that and dive in. ;)

[Kpt_Krunch]

Well - I'm not even close to knowing what I'm talking about here, but in my limited research of the formats, the DVD-A's can hold a lot more information, including pictures, video, etc. that an SACD can't. I have purchased many DVD-A titles from AIX records. These titles are recorded live (not 'live' as in a concert, but 'live' in a concert hall, ah, it's better to read it for yourselves at www.aixrecords.com that will explain everything). The DVD-A side of the DVD's have anywhere from 3.8 to 4.2 GB's of information, far more than an SACD could ever hold. To me that means no compression whatsoever, and with a properly calibrated, high-end system you could probably hear the difference.

I for one own many titles in both formats, and both sound terrific. The main difference though is that in cheap uni players (like my pioneer 563a), when setting the speakers to small, the frequency cutoff of for DVD-A is 200hz, whereas for SACD it is 120hz. Needless to say, on that particular player, the SACD's sound far superior than the DVD-A's do. Once I got my ICBM from Outlaw Audio though, it took care of everything and as already stated they both sound good now (but now using a Sammy HD-841).

[curtis]

Wow...great info!

I'll just say: "I like them both....a lot!"

[Nicholas Mosher]

On the Diana Krall "Love Scenes" DVD-A I can hear the saliva in her mouth when she parts her lips or sings a word that ends in K. Pretty good detail if you ask me :)

[curtis]

Are you sure you that just isn't some kind of fantasy of yours? :D

[Nicholas Mosher]

Are you sure you that just isn't some kind of fantasy of yours? :p :D

She is quite easy on the eyes... :rolleyes:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000C8ARD.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Seriously though, you can hear when her vocal chords fire up when she transitions from a whisper, and her breath change as she stresses notes. And indeeed you can hear the saliva in her mouth as she opens it, and during words where her tounge touches the roof of her mouth. Incredible detail!

[curtis]

Oh....I totally understand.

[Nicholas Mosher]

Just ordered a couple more titles tonight on Amazon...

Queen: A Night at the Opera, DVD-A
Immersion, DVD-A

Tomorrow I'm going to order a few titles from Telarc on SACD. Amazon has big delays on them once you add them to your cart... :rolleyes:

LAGQ: Latin
Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
Berlioz Requiem
Dupre, Franck & Widor

The following review of Immersion at Amazon is what got me to pull the trigger. Its an older DVD-A, but sounds intriguing...

This amazing DVD-Audio release explores surround sound more extensively than any other DVD-Audio that I've heard (or know of). I've never experienced anything like it. All the content here is new, and was put together especially for surround sound, unlike most other DVD-Audio recordings which tend to be re-releases of older pop/rock stuff. There are 13 different, short pieces here. In the first piece Live/Work, the performer (Pamela Z) provides a verbal, circular tour of her studio (a good way to see how consistent your surround setup is). In Tank (by Bruce Odland), you hear a trumpet playing inside a water tank with a long echo, along with some percussion. This is one of the most realistic depictions of a three-dimensional space I've ever heard. White Turbulence 2000 (by Maggi Payne) slowly changes with some complex sound processing. Luong Hai Ky Mi Gia (Carl Stone) moves really fast, with fragments of somewhat recognizable sound zooming all around you. The Housatonic at Henry Street (by Phil Kline) is a moving, haunting piece that uses multiple boomboxes and street sounds to evoke a street corner in New York City. A piece by Ellen Fullman uses layers of recordings of an instrument she invented that has strings about 100 feet long. Propeller Island (Lukas Ligeti) has different kinds of colorful percussion instruments tapping out different rhythms. Steel is attractive and is performed on the Quadrachord, an instrument invented by the composer Paul Dresher. Sayonara Sirenade 20/21 (by Pauline Oliveros) uses older electronic music sounds in a surround sound setting. Twilight's Dance (by Paul Dolden) has driving rhythms that lead to a big, exciting ending. 2000 presents intense "noise" music that apparently is typical of the composer Merzbow. Sighs and Murmurs, A Sea Song (by Ingram Marshal) is a lanquid, calm piece. The recording ends with Eclipse Variations, a lovely work by Meredith Monk that has layers of sustained voices that float in and out, creating an other-worldly ambiance. Visually, each piece has several slides that change as the piece progresses. (This is actually more advanced than some of the other rock DVD-Audio releases I've encountered.) There is also a full booklet that gives thorough info about all these composers and their pieces.
I listened to Metallica's Black Album on CD the other day for the first time in years. It was definetly nostalgic, but I don't think I'm going to get the DVD-A version.

[Nicholas Mosher]

Placed an order with "Tower Records" and saved about $5 along with Fed-Ex 2-Day at no extra charge...
They were all in stock so the real test is whether or not I will actually get them all.

Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD
A Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas SACD (Neighbors oughtta love this in April... )
Berlioz Requiem SACD
LAGQ: Latin SACD
Dupre, Franck & Widor SACD

You have to be careful choosing between SACDs and redbooks. They both look the same except for label number and price.

[debron]

Nicholas,

Thanks for introducing me to Diana Krall. I've never heard of her before so I went to Amazon.com and listened to the sample tracks. The sound quality of those samples is not great but enough to tell she has a great voice!

I ordered the cd version of "Love Scenes" as I don't have DVD-A or SACD capabilities.

Thanks!

- Ron.

[Nicholas Mosher]

No prob debron! Hope you enjoy the CD!

Btw guys, here are my reviews on my latest titles (copied from another forum I post on)...

Just ordered a couple more titles tonight on Amazon...

Queen: A Night at the Opera, DVD-A
Immersion, DVD-APlease, PLEASE, save your money and don't order either of these. Immersion has got to be the biggest waste of money I have ever encountered. My Denon 2900 even has some trouble playing tracks 3 & 4. Most of the tracks are simply loops of distortion and pink noise. The only reason why I know this isn't simply a bug is that they'll have a nice clean sound of the ocean in the background or clear sound effects. Its not artful use of distortion/noise either (like Moby or Blue Man Group). What trash!!!http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/rant.gif

Queen: A Night at the Opera isn't as bad, but its very poorly mixed. Another one of those 5ch mixes that seem to be just a 2ch mix with matrixed surrounds. Then they just throw random things in the surrounds. The drums come out all five channels (WTF?) quite often. Chorus/backup swaps between surround and front mains in the same song? Nothing involving or spacious about it and very gimicky.

Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture SACD
A Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas SACD
Berlioz Requiem SACD
LAGQ: Latin SACD
Dupre, Franck & Widor SACD

Again, I'm blown away with everything Telarc puts out!

While I can't enjoy most of these to their fullest without my soon to be delivered subwoofer, they are still spectacular even in 5.0.

Berlioz Requiem is so deep and involving I sat through the entire 78min performance. I was absolutely exhausted by the end of it there is so much to absorb at once. Almost fitting the story, I started around sunset and finished in the dark twilight hours. Incredible!

Dupre~Franck~Widor was completely enveloping. Excellent use of all 5 channels. I can't wait until I get my sub for this one. The shear size and output of the organ and cathedral is conveyed quite vividly even without a sub.

1812 Overture will be much more fun with the sub...http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/demon.gif
A definite thumbs up on this performance though, as well as the 6 other Tchaikovsky works.

I'm just getting into the LAGQ: Latin and listened to Carol of the Bells on the Mormon Tabernacle disc. These also seem very promising.

[debron]

You like these discs now, you'll be blown away when you get a good subwoofer!

[Ben_Wood]

I've read on other forums that Dire Straits' "Brothers in Arms" is being released as a m/c SACD May 9th! http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=15140897

[hhcan]

Nicholas,

Did you try Buena Vista Social Club, the DVD-A version? This mix is awsome especially the 3rd track where the music, drum play back & forth between the front and surround. It really creates an illusion that you are sitting in the middle of the band and the musicians are playing around you.