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Abhi
03-10-2005, 02:55 PM
I have 5 CBM-170s and .1 VTF-2. Has anyone been using Pioneer 1014 with ascends? I know describing sound is the hard part, but how does the combo sound, in terms of soundstage depth, imaging, BRIGHTNESS etc.? How does it stack up against HK/Ascend combo? I'm currently running my ascends through denon 2802.
Thanks!

Shrubman
03-10-2005, 03:51 PM
I'm interested in the answer to this same question, though I'm in the opposite position. I just got a 1014 and am planning on getting Ascends as soon as I can...

Lee Bailey
03-10-2005, 04:03 PM
I have 5 CBM-170s and .1 VTF-2. Has anyone been using Pioneer 1014 with ascends? I know describing sound is the hard part, but how does the combo sound, in terms of soundstage depth, imaging, BRIGHTNESS etc.? How does it stack up against HK/Ascend combo? I'm currently running my ascends through denon 2802.
Thanks!

What's wrong with your 2802?

cestlavie
03-10-2005, 04:06 PM
Well...I'm by no means as big of an audiophille as some of you are but, I do have a Pioneer Elite 56txi, which is the bigger brother to the 1014, which I believe is something like an Elite 52 minus a few functions. The sound on the Elite is amazing, it's very clear, and neutral, and seperates frequencies quite well, IMHO I think it would be a perfect match. Being more well versed in car audio then home audio, my current headunit in my car is a clarion joyride, which has many similar features to home theater receivers but is nowhere near as functional, coupled with some cdt speakers, which produces a neutral sound, if that helps establish a benchmark. I haven't used them with ascends yet, though I have a pair coming, and have only tried the 56txi with my roommates Missions, polks, and energy sub, and the differences between that and his current receiver (a panosonic) were night and day, almost all aspects of it were improved, and add to that MACC capability and you have a pretty well calibrated system.

Just my 2 hope that helped somewhat,
C'est

Abhi
03-10-2005, 04:20 PM
What's wrong with your 2802?

Nothing major, but I have to tone down the treble by 4db otherwise it becomes annoying. Don't get me wrong. Denon is a fine amp. It has full detailed rich upper bass and mids. But I hate to use the tone control to reduce the brightness in the upper freqs. The bass is good but could have been tighter. Moreover, the newer amps have more to offer in terms of calibration.

curtis
03-10-2005, 04:38 PM
Lets be careful here.

How do you know the Pioneer will sound different than the Denon? Have you tried your Ascends with different equipment?

Ascends are not "bright" speakers, but if you have to turn down the treble by 4dB, maybe you would like a speaker that has rolled off highs.

metalaaron
03-10-2005, 05:05 PM
a 4dB adjustment is pretty dramatic for a treble setting.
is this 4dB adjustment global? meaning -4dB for DVD, TV, etc.?
are you running the current denon 2802 w/ any sort of pre/post processing of the signal? implementing any sort of surround DSP?

Abhi
03-10-2005, 05:13 PM
Thanks curtis!


How do you know the Pioneer will sound different than the Denon?
I don't know and trying to find out from other people's experiences.



Ascends are not "bright" speakers, but if you have to turn down the treble by 4dB, maybe you would like a speaker that has rolled off highs.
I didn't mean to say Ascends are bright neither am I looking for ascend alternatives. :-) I am a proud owner of ascends for more than a year. I said I have to turn the treble down on my denon. It could be the room response, could be the electronics.....My denon (2802) does not have room correction and I have to use tone control to compensate for the brightness (which maybe a result of room gain) and I hate to do it because tone controls cannot compensate the room gains correctly.

Having said that, I am looking for budget alternatives on electronics side. HK/ascend combo is very popular. My original question: How would pioneer 1014 sound with ascends? Compared to HK/ascends?

curtis
03-10-2005, 05:16 PM
I think what I am trying to say is 4dB is a lot.....and going from one receiver to another is not going to vary that much....and Denon is not known to be that bright.

Abhi
03-10-2005, 05:22 PM
is this 4dB adjustment global? meaning -4dB for DVD, TV, etc.?
are you running the current denon 2802 w/ any sort of pre/post processing of the signal? implementing any sort of surround DSP?

The setting is global. It made the DVDs and CDs sound fleshed out with more detail. The sound is more involving now. It's not just me, but wife and friends like it this way. Without this setting, it sounds brighter and loses the sweetness. As I mentioned it could be the room gain. I'm gonna need to measure the response curve.

Abhi
03-10-2005, 05:44 PM
I think what I am trying to say is 4dB is a lot.....and going from one receiver to another is not going to vary that much....and Denon is not known to be that bright.
Thanks Curtis!! Denon 2802 does not have room correction. Pioneer 1014 is less expensive ( don't like the word "cheaper"! :-)) than Denon 2805 or HK 635 and has MCACC. My denon's treble control is, correct me if I'm wrong, at 10kHz. If I have a room gain of 2 db in nearby frequencies, then 4 db cut is compensating for that gain, but it's bringing down 10kHz by 4 dbs which is a lot! It's just an example.

On a side note (for anyone who wants to match denon with ascends): Denon/Ascend set up is very nice. It gave me many jaw dropping moments on DVDs as well as goosebump moments on music. In my case I have to tone down the treble. YMMV.

curtis
03-10-2005, 06:02 PM
Remember...that tone control is a "primitive" form of room correction.

I am not sure what bandwidth the tone control works in.

Abhi
03-10-2005, 06:05 PM
The sound on the Elite is amazing, it's very clear, and neutral, and seperates frequencies quite well, IMHO I think it would be a perfect match. I haven't used them with ascends yet, though I have a pair coming, and have only tried the 56txi with my roommates Missions, polks, and energy sub, and the differences between that and his current receiver (a panosonic) were night and day, almost all aspects of it were improved, and add to that MACC capability and you have a pretty well calibrated system.


Thanks C'est for the reply! Good to know that you like the pioneer. How would you categorize it? analytical/grainy OR smooth/warm?. I hope pio would be a great match for ascends. Please post your impressions when you mate ascends with the pioneer.

Abhi
03-10-2005, 06:22 PM
Remember...that tone control is a "primitive" form of room correction.

Yes Curtis, there you go! You summarized it in one line!

Abhi
03-10-2005, 06:29 PM
Few weeks ago Graphicguy and CenterForAnts (avsforum member) replied to another post of mine on AVSForum stating that pioneer/ascend combo is very nice. Just want to probe more before pulling the trigger on pioneer 1014.

Graphicguy, airs, any comments? Are you on this forum CenterForAnts?

jimsiff
03-11-2005, 01:00 AM
Like Cestlavie, I have the big brother to the 1014, a 54tx. I love the Pioneer/Ascend combo. Both the 54tx and 56txi have a slightly more advanced MCACC setup, but the 1014 is still very good. The difference between the 1014 and Elite line is less pronounced than between the 1014 and 914 and below. It's a great receiver.

Regardless, like Curtis I would question whether or not switching to the 1014 would make a dramatic difference. Best Buy has a decent return policy. You can get it from them for $399 by price matching J&R if it's not currently on sale. Try it out, set it up properly with MCACC and see if you like what you hear. If you don't, you can always return it.

Abhi
03-11-2005, 03:24 PM
Thanks jimsiff!

gr1m
03-11-2005, 10:27 PM
Few weeks ago Graphicguy and CenterForAnts (avsforum member) replied to another post of mine on AVSForum stating that pioneer/ascend combo is very nice. Just want to probe more before pulling the trigger on pioneer 1014.

Graphicguy, airs, any comments? Are you on this forum CenterForAnts?

abhi, it's me CFA...yes I have my Pio 1014 mated with a pair of 170s up front, the 340c, 200s as surrounds, very neutral sound, definitely more detailed than a pair of floorstanding infinity spkrs that i junked. my svs pb10 is more than plenty and deep to cover my low-end needs. the 1014's auto-mcacc is very very helpful and user-friendly. i doubt there's anything out there in its price range that can compete as far as features/room calibrator, PLIIx, et al. good luck!

Lee Bailey
03-12-2005, 07:26 AM
How close to the side walls are your speakers? Have you ever tried finding and treating the reflection points on your walls? Not to say that the Pioneer would not be worth it, it's an expensive way to see if you can fix what may be an acoustics problem with your room. I own a Denon 3803, it has no auto equalizer either, but I do not experience the brightness problem you describe with my 340's. To find your reflection points along a wall, you just need an assistant and a mirror. Simply sit down in your listening sweet spot, and have the assistant move the mirror along the wall in your direction at the tweeter's height until you see the speaker closet to that wall. Mark that area with tape. Now keep moving the mirror until you see the opposite speaker. Mark that area. If you have a center channel, you can mark the wall where you see it in the mirror as well. Repeat the procedure for the opposite wall. If those areas you marked are bare, or there's glass or some other relflective surface there, temporarily hang something like a large towel or some other obsorbing soft material on the walls. See what that does to your treble.

curtis
03-12-2005, 07:39 AM
Lee...that is so cool!! I never knew or thought of that!

Abhi
03-12-2005, 02:39 PM
abhi, it's me CFA...yes I have my Pio 1014 mated with a pair of 170s up front, the 340c, 200s as surrounds, very neutral sound, definitely more detailed than a pair of floorstanding infinity spkrs that i junked. my svs pb10 is more than plenty and deep to cover my low-end needs. the 1014's auto-mcacc is very very helpful and user-friendly. i doubt there's anything out there in its price range that can compete as far as features/room calibrator, PLIIx, et al. good luck!
Hi gr1m, thanks for your reply! As per Lee's suggestions I'm gonna check the acoustic reflections with my denon/ascend setup. Even though I'm planning to get a pio 1014 for comparison and then decide which one to keep.

Abhi
03-12-2005, 02:42 PM
How close to the side walls are your speakers? Have you ever tried finding and treating the reflection points on your walls? Not to say that the Pioneer would not be worth it, it's an expensive way to see if you can fix what may be an acoustics problem with your room. I own a Denon 3803, it has no auto equalizer either, but I do not experience the brightness problem you describe with my 340's. To find your reflection points along a wall, you just need an assistant and a mirror. Simply sit down in your listening sweet spot, and have the assistant move the mirror along the wall in your direction at the tweeter's height until you see the speaker closet to that wall. Mark that area with tape. Now keep moving the mirror until you see the opposite speaker. Mark that area. If you have a center channel, you can mark the wall where you see it in the mirror as well. Repeat the procedure for the opposite wall. If those areas you marked are bare, or there's glass or some other relflective surface there, temporarily hang something like a large towel or some other obsorbing soft material on the walls. See what that does to your treble.
Lee, you guessed it right. My front left speaker is just 6 inches from the wall and there is nothing I can do about this. But your idea of checking acoustic reflections is certainly worth a try. I'll experiment with this. Thanks.

jimsiff
03-13-2005, 12:38 AM
To find your reflection points along a wall, you just need an assistant and a mirror. Simply sit down in your listening sweet spot, and have the assistant move the mirror along the wall in your direction at the tweeter's height until you see the speaker closet to that wall. Mark that area with tape. Now keep moving the mirror until you see the opposite speaker. Mark that area. If you have a center channel, you can mark the wall where you see it in the mirror as well. Repeat the procedure for the opposite wall. If those areas you marked are bare, or there's glass or some other relflective surface there, temporarily hang something like a large towel or some other obsorbing soft material on the walls. See what that does to your treble.

That is the single most interesting and valuable piece of information about room treatment I've ever seen. That demystifies acoustic treatments for me. I know you can get more involved than that, but it's a great way to understand the abc's. Needless to say, I will be using this method as soon as I can.

Kpt_Krunch
03-13-2005, 10:55 AM
To find your reflection points along a wall, you just need an assistant and a mirror. Simply sit down in your listening sweet spot, and have the assistant move the mirror along the wall in your direction at the tweeter's height until you see the speaker closet to that wall.

I guess you're saying here that the assistant is moving about the room, keeping the mirror as stationary as possible while you look into the mirror? Also, my guess it it would work for the ceiling as well (though your assistant better be tall at that point :)).

I'll have to try that, I've been keeping some foam around and was planning on somehow trying to set up some sort of temporary sound dampeners when watching movies or settling in to some serious music listening. Unfortunately, I still have to come up with a more permanent solution for my pot lights, the casings vibrate quite badly when a deep bass note/effect is played, but this is a good start!

Lee Bailey
03-13-2005, 12:24 PM
I guess you're saying here that the assistant is moving about the room, keeping the mirror as stationary as possible while you look into the mirror? Also, my guess it it would work for the ceiling as well (though your assistant better be tall at that point :)).

I'll have to try that, I've been keeping some foam around and was planning on somehow trying to set up some sort of temporary sound dampeners when watching movies or settling in to some serious music listening. Unfortunately, I still have to come up with a more permanent solution for my pot lights, the casings vibrate quite badly when a deep bass note/effect is played, but this is a good start!

Correct, with the mirror flat up against the wall. Don't laugh at the assistant as they may have to contort their bodies to get out of your line of sight :D . Yes, it would work on the ceilings as well. As for your pot lights, maybe some clear silicone sealant in the areas of what you can tell are vibrating? Are these lights recessed into the ceiling or walls?

As for acoustic treatments, you try simple stuff or you can spend more money than your system cost! It helps most if you have a dedicated room for your system, since WAF :eek: counts when it comes to what you do to their living room! Tapestries, heavy curtains, etc., are some of the things you can get from a store. Some people actually create their own frames, get some decorative cloth for a cover, and fill the inside with fiberglass or wool material.

Ever notice that the Movie Theaters all carpet their side walls? (At least all the ones in my area do.) :cool:

Kpt_Krunch
03-13-2005, 01:37 PM
Correct, with the mirror flat up against the wall. Don't laugh at the assistant as they may have to contort their bodies to get out of your line of sight :D .

I was thinking about that - maybe I can somehow get my two and half year old to do that, he's short enough that he wouldn't have to contort. Chances are though he'd just run off with the mirror


As for your pot lights, maybe some clear silicone sealant in the areas of what you can tell are vibrating? Are these lights recessed into the ceiling or walls?

They're recessed into the ceiling. A couple of springs hold the casing to the ceiling around the bulb - I belive it is the springs that are vibrating against the sides of the housing surrounding the light bulb. I didn't realize when I installed them that I would have this problem (of course, my old sub woofer I used back then wouldn't move much air anyway, so I guess I didn't have that problem at all until I got a real subwoofer). The good news is that it doesn't vibrate when listening to music, only when watching movies and there is a very low and loud LFE - but it sure is annoying when it does happen.




As for acoustic treatments, you try simple stuff or you can spend more money than your system cost! It helps most if you have a dedicated room for your system, since WAF :eek: counts when it comes to what you do to their living room! Tapestries, heavy curtains, etc., are some of the things you can get from a store. Some people actually create their own frames, get some decorative cloth for a cover, and fill the inside with fiberglass or wool material.

Ever notice that the Movie Theaters all carpet their side walls? (At least all the ones in my area do.) :cool:

Herein lies my biggest problem - the h/t room doubles as an office as my wife's old office was upstairs in what is now our son's room. Her desk is the first thing you see when you come down the stairs, turn right and that is the h/t area. My sub vibrates just about everything on her desk (again with the same LFE type sound during movies only - but the pot lights are definitely more sensitive and it's relatively easy to isolate trouble area's on the desk and remove them) - my thinking here is to rig up some kind of heavy duty curtain rod along the overhang that hides my duct work, which would divide the room into two thirds h/t, one third office. I could then put up a heavy duty curtain of some kind that would absorb most of the bass waves to prevent my wifes desk from going crazy when watching a movie. If all else fails, I'm going to buy a new house with a dedicated room in it for H/T - who says this hobby is expensive :)

metalaaron
03-13-2005, 02:38 PM
many people have raved about Auralex Gramma pads underneath their subs.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/auralex-gramma-4-2004.html

or, you could turn the sub down ;) hehe

cestlavie
03-14-2005, 11:06 PM
"Thanks C'est for the reply! Good to know that you like the pioneer. How would you categorize it? analytical/grainy OR smooth/warm?. I hope pio would be a great match for ascends. Please post your impressions when you mate ascends with the pioneer."

No problem, Unfortunately right now, I'm getting a pair of used ascends shipped to me, and probably won't be able to try them for a while. The sound is definitely warm, and pretty true to the original sound. It cleaned up the sound A LOT, compared to the old panasonic receiver, which isn't really a fair comparison due to the disparate costs, but definitely worth every cent, at least to me. My roommate, loves Denon, but likes the elite sound slightly more, receiver-wise. Just some opinions in your search.

I'm guessing I'm going to like the Ascends, I heard the Rocket and was fairly unimpressed it sounded like it left the middle frequencies out, and tried to throw in some bass. But again, JMHO,

C'est

curtis
03-14-2005, 11:45 PM
I'm guessing I'm going to like the Ascends, I heard the Rocket and was fairly unimpressed it sounded like it left the middle frequencies out, and tried to throw in some bass. But again, JMHO,

Which Rockets were those?

cestlavie
03-15-2005, 09:12 AM
RS750 Sigs, they weren't bad mind you, just not my musical taste, I can see myself liking them, if for nothing else, their aesthetic beauty. Thought I've never heard the ascends yet, I'm guessing they are like my car speakers (CDT) that don't have much on the bass side, but in terms of mids and highs, outperform every other speaker I have ever heard (excluding the $1000+ range).

It should be noted however, that I heard the Onix's at a pretty low volume, but I would describe their sound as high on the lower frequencies, lower on the mid frequencies, and high on the high frequencies. I like an evener sound, with bass going to the subwoofer, though I really can't say the Onix's weren't good, probably just more geared toward Movies. On a sidenote that Center Onix makes is a monster.

C'est

curtis
03-15-2005, 09:34 AM
I have heard the RS750's...but not at lower volumes. My impression of them was more mids and mid-bass.

cestlavie
03-15-2005, 10:47 AM
I guess I should clarify. In the context of which I'm speaking, Low - is more midbass as a personal philosophy of mine is that speakers should not have subwoofer frequencies or low bass in them (JMHO). Mids, I found the voices and effects to come across much weaker than my reference CDTs, not muddy, but just not as strong as the "low" frequencies which I felt overpowered the overall sound. The highs, and by highs I mean very high notes, came across for me, not the musical parts like cymbals and stuff since I didn't really hear classical tracks, but more like the kind that stays in your ears and rings.

Don't know if that helped at all,
but you're free to disagree to each his own I guess,
C'est

Abhi
03-15-2005, 11:16 AM
C'est, I think you'll like the ascends. They have a very neutral, clear and crisp sound (It's been said so many times, ...almost a cliche!). With ascends you get a very balanced and detailed sound minus ringing. (I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot and let the thread get hijacked!! ) :-)

Abhi
03-22-2005, 11:19 AM
http://www.polkaudio.com/home/faqad/advice.php?article=optimizeroom

...and this:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/RoomAcoustics-RivesAudio.html

airs
03-22-2005, 01:58 PM
I am indeed running the 1014 with a set of 340M's and absolutely love the sound - very neutral and balanced. I recommend you pick up a unit at your local Best Buy and give it an audition.

cestlavie
03-22-2005, 08:41 PM
Thanks Abhi,
been busy lately so haven't had a chance to read this, I'm sure I will too :D

C'est

Lee Bailey
03-25-2005, 10:10 AM
Lee, you guessed it right. My front left speaker is just 6 inches from the wall and there is nothing I can do about this. But your idea of checking acoustic reflections is certainly worth a try. I'll experiment with this. Thanks.

Abhi, were you able to do some treatments yet? Interested in what you find.

Abhi
03-25-2005, 11:18 AM
Hi Lee,
As per your suggestion, I used the mirror method and hung a thick towel at the first reflection point. It reduced the high freq reflection dramatically. However aparently the mids were still reflected. I think I am going to need to use some Owen Corning 703 panels instead. Then I toed the front left speaker pointing directly to the center of the sofa. The FR is toed a little. I owe you one for pointing me to room treatment! Alternatively, I am thinking of moving my front speakers to Wall A.

Abhi
03-25-2005, 11:31 AM
I am indeed running the 1014 with a set of 340M's and absolutely love the sound - very neutral and balanced. I recommend you pick up a unit at your local Best Buy and give it an audition.

Thanks airs!
Once I'm done with the speakers positioning/room tretment, Im going to give Pioneer a try and compare with the denon.

Lee Bailey
03-25-2005, 02:20 PM
That looks like a very difficult room to put a system in. The sub in my opinion should be in the corner by the left front speaker. Apparently, there is no room for it? This is what my living room looks like.

Lee Bailey
03-25-2005, 03:48 PM
And here's another idea from Dolby on using a corner layout. Of course, this would take some planning and approval from those you live with.

curtis
03-25-2005, 03:52 PM
Lee...I love in your illustration where it says "My Seat". :D

BGHD
04-12-2005, 12:37 PM
So, ABHI, did you pull the trigger on the 1014? I'm in similar position (set of 4x 170s + 340c + vtf2 sub) & wanna know your impression.

Abhi
04-12-2005, 02:45 PM
So, ABHI, did you pull the trigger on the 1014? I'm in similar position (set of 4x 170s + 340c + vtf2 sub) & wanna know your impression.
Welcome to the forum BGHD!

I haven't yet pulled the trigger on 1014. I'm still experimenting with different locations for the best possible sound with my current receiver. There are quite a few members on this forum who are using Pioneer receivers (including 1014) with ascends with very good results.

Sometime this week I'll visit best buy. They have 20% off (with coupon) on open-box HT components till 05/07/05.

Abhi
04-14-2005, 11:58 AM
This is how I did it!!
Finally I rearranged the setup in my living room. Now my front speakers are about 3 1/2 ' from the side walls and I toed them slightly. I took advantage of the sloping ceiling so that the reflections from the ceiling hit the rear wall (instead of the listening spot). The subwoofer found a new location .This time I avoided "keep-anywhere-and-equalize-it" approach for the sub (I still use BFD to fine tune the sub's response). The result: My Denon is now singing with the ascends! :-) In 2-ch mode, the speakers totally dissapear and the whole space (and even beyond the walls boundaries) turns into a huge soundstage! WOW!!! I hear a lot more nuances in the music. I didn't know that "Come away with me" (Norah Jones) had that perpetuating synthesized background sound!! I haven't yet hooked up the surrounds though. The opening score of Apollo13 made me speechless! Finally I could get rid of all the electronics and speakers, and brought the artists in my own living room!!

So the best ever upgrade (after ascends) for me is to understand the room behavior and rearrange the setup! Believe me, it's a night and day difference! I am still not using absorbers(or for that matter even draperies). I feel that there is still a slight flutter (no space between my sofa and the rear wall). This can be easily cured by hanging some heavy drapery on the rear wall.

More than a year ago when I got my ascends and hooked them up I said "wow"! Now after rearranging the setup I am short of words expressing the emotion. Kudos to Ascend Acoustics!!

This topic started with pioneer/ascend combo. Should I buy the pio? I don't know! But I'll give it a try later than sooner!! Will equalization help the sound? YES, but only after you got rid of those unwanted reflections to a greater degree.

My advise: Please please please understand the room acoustics and put it in action before upgrading the gear. There is plenty of info available on the Net.

bikeman
04-14-2005, 12:27 PM
This is how I did it!!
So the best ever upgrade (after ascends) for me is to understand the room behavior and rearrange the setup!
My advise: Please please please understand the room acoustics and put it in action before upgrading the gear. There is plenty of info available on the Net.

Since our listening position is up against the rear wall, I've been looking into ways to make everything work without a large outlay of cash. I brought it up to my wife that a tapastry on the wall would really improve the looks of the room (crafty, heh?). She thought about it and said she'd knit a thick tapastry herself. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this marriage thing. :rolleyes: :D

David

Abhi
04-14-2005, 12:36 PM
Since our listening position is up against the rear wall, I've been looking into ways to make everything work without a large outlay of cash. I brought it up to my wife that a tapastry on the wall would really improve the looks of the room (crafty, heh?). She thought about it and said she'd knit a thick tapastry herself. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this marriage thing.
David

Ha ha !! David, when I rearranged the setup my wife said, "The old placement looked better. Could you undo this?" Instantly I popped up some of her favourite CDs and played them. Issue resolved! Now I need to talk her into the curtain-on-wall topic!