PC to Ascends...Best Setup?

[Shrubman]

Hi folks,

Ok, I have been 'round and 'round the various audio fora. I guess that, in my price range, it's come down to a reciever such as the Panasonic SA-XR70S or the Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K. One is pure digital path, the other not.

Tonight I finally committed to the Pioneer after reading an untold number of positive reviews.

Considering I can always return it, let me ask you this: If you wanted the best bang for the buck in two or 2.1 channel audio for now, with the possibility of future upgrades to surround sound, what would you do?

I plan to have my PC as the primary source, and even then, I'm debating whether to cancel my order for an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 LT and get a simple card or motherboard that allows bit perfect pass through on a digital out.

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Evan

[jimsiff]

Tonight I finally committed to the Pioneer after reading an untold number of positive reviews.

Considering I can always return it, let me ask you this: If you wanted the best bang for the buck in two or 2.1 channel audio for now, with the possibility of future upgrades to surround sound, what would you do?


Evan,

I had the same receiver dilemma a month ago. I was considering the 1014tx or the 54tx. The 1014 wins the value comparison IMO hands down, but there were some features that sold me on the 54tx in the end. The bottom line is that the 1014 is an excellent receiver and at $399, tough to beat in the sub $600 category.

If I wanted the best bang for the buck for 2 or 2.1 audio with an upgrade path for the future, I'd first figure out how far ahead the future was. If surround sound would happen within the next 6 months or so, I'd say you're on the right track with the 1014tx. If the future could be 1-2 years down the road or more, I'd suggest you buy a used or refurb 2 channel receiver for under $150. Put the savings aside and buy a A/V receiver when you're ready for surround sound.

A/V receiver technology moves so fast that if you buy a good value now but don't intend to use it's main feature for a year or two, the value diminishes significantly as technology trickles down. In 2-3 years, I would guess that there will be receivers in the sub $1k class that support HDMI video switching, while currently it's only available with flagship models or external switchers.

You can get a refurbished Onkyo TX-8211 2 channel receiver from ecost.com for $85.99. I have the 8211's great grandfather, the TX-900. It's rated at 40x2, and has served me well since I bought it in high school in 1989. It currently is in my 3rd room system, and keeps on trucking.

There are others on this board with more experience than me, so maybe they'll offer more or better insight.

Good luck. You've got a great receiver... I just hope you can use it to it's fullest reasonably soon.

[bikeman]

You can get a refurbished Onkyo TX-8211 2 channel receiver from ecost.com for $85.99.

I have the Onkyo 8011 (basically the same as the 8211) in my study doing 2 channel duty. It's a terrific value. Just like with the Ascend speakers, it's amazing whats available at lower price points today. It hasn't always been so.

David

[sensibull]

On the PC side of things, getting bit perfect out of onboard sound is a not a very easy thing to accomplish. Almost every mobo resamples 44.1 to 48khz. That being said, if you don't need digital input capabilities, there's no need to spring for the Audiotrak -- I just picked up the Chaintech AV-710 for $23 and with the right drivers (3.10a from the VIA website) I have achieved bit-perfect playback. Sounds de-lovely through my Ascends...

[jimsiff]

You can get a refurbished Onkyo TX-8211 2 channel receiver from ecost.com for $85.99.

I have the Onkyo 8011 (basically the same as the 8211) in my study doing 2 channel duty. It's a terrific value. Just like with the Ascend speakers, it's amazing whats available at lower price points today. It hasn't always been so.

David

No kidding. I paid $200 for my TX-900 back in '89. With inflation, that's about $300 today. It's amazing that you can get an equivilent for less than 1/3 the price right now.

[S_rangeBrew]

Most cheapo motherboards come with a coax digital out. Should be good enough for music, unless your one of those cavemen that thinks vinyl sounds better (runs and hides). I used lossless WMA sampling in Windows Media Player 10 (I think WMP 9 also has it) to rip my entire CD collection. There is a cool option in WMP to automatically rip any CD you put in the CD drive. If you are hooked to the internet, it will download cover art and song descriptions. Easy and quick. Microsoft rawks, in this case.

I will be using my PC as a jukebox, and the PCM output should be just fine. I'm also using a 1014tx, and my satellite box and DVD player are already using up both my optical digital inputs, so I'm glad the PC is coax SPDIF!

Have fun!

:cool:

[curtis]

I use an Apple Airport Express and stream my MP3's wirelessly to it. The Airport Express is hooked up digitally to my pre/pro and is controlled via iTunes on my PC......works and sounds great!

[sensibull]

Most cheapo motherboards come with a coax digital out. Should be good enough for music:

But again, FWIW, those cheapo mobos resample everything to 48khz, and that's a definitely audible distortion. They also can't pass DTS signals, I don't think (though I could be wrong onthat). As for WMA, I tend to steer clear of any proprietary formats. FLAC is also lossless and open-source, so it has the broadest compatibility -- better compression as well I think and no attempt to control what I do with my music.

[Shrubman]

Thanks to all who responded.

I think I have my plan figured out. Please let me know if you see any glaring errors.

By Tuesday, I will have the two products I decided to order first: an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1LT (http://www.audiotrak.net/prodigy7.1LT.htm) and a Pioneer VSX-1014TX-K (http://ww3.onecall.com/PID_24628.htm). I realize there's some overlap, with either one likely able to provide good DAC's. I couldn't justify the limitations and/or aggravations of simply going with a power amp or 2 channel receiver, though, considering the price differentials.

Once these arrive, and after my bank account recovers, I think my next purchase will be a sub. I'm leaning that way because my two old Boston A60's with new woofers are behaving fine and, knowing I'll likely want a sub with my Ascends, especially if I go with 170's, I want it to be ready to go when I get them.

Does this make sense to you all? I realize I'm building a system in "reverse order" but I can't see doing it otherwise given what I'm starting with.

I appreciate any and all feedback.

Evan

[Shrubman]

: (

[metalaaron]

cool, that looks like a solid I/O for the PC. i plan on doing a similar type of setup this year. i want to get back on track recording and playback via one device - my PC. these offerings just keep getting better each year.
EMU, MAudio, and SoundBlaster also make good devices. zzounds.com usually suits all of my music needs...except for speakers. ;)

hope you enjoy the setup. can you come back and give some feedback? :)

[bikeman]

Shrub,
I know you bought an excellent bang for the buck receiver from all the rave reviews on AVS. I don't know anything about that soundcard but I'd like to hear your impressions. I may go in that direction later this year.

David

[S_rangeBrew]

Don't be sad about no replys. Most people don't know this forum is back up, and therefore, it's sparsely populated.

I think you have made a great decision. I also got the 1014tx and think it's a great deal. The wide array of options it has and the massive power (for it's price) put it over the top. I messed around with the MCACC with my 2.1 setup, and it really worked. I'm itching to try it out with my full 7.1 setup, but my house won't be up for a few more months. :mad:

I know it would take a little effort, but would you mind A/B'ing your sound card digital output vs. your motherboard's? I'm curious to know how much audible distortion a motherboard chipset makes vs. a good soundcard. I know the analog mini-din output from my motherboard sucks hard. Static, distortion, you name it. I'll be testing the digital coax output this weekend, and see if it sucks equally. If so, I'll have to buck up for a PCI sound card, so your review is important to me! :cool:

As for subwoofers... I guess it depends on your room and tastes what you get. If you have moderate DIY skills, it's one of those things you can save a lot of money on building yourself. I have a $150 Subwoofer I got at Best Buy. Can you say cheap? It has a 12" cone, and a 120watt amp (rated how, I don't know) It's model name is Sony SAW-M40. They were called "one of the only decent speakers Sony ever made" :D
It works for me, for now, but a Infinite Baffle basement sub is going to replace it as soon as possible.
A subwoofer adds so much to the music, as I'm sure you know. I guess I'm in the camp of "anything is better than nothing" when it comes to subwoofers. However, there are many people for which a sloppy subwoofer really detracts from the music. If you are one of those, a nice sealed sub or Infinite Baffle may be your thing. I'm sure once I get my IB sub fired up, the Sony will seem awful.

Have fun!

[metalaaron]

or, like me, i prefer the CBM170s in my pc/guitar/soon_to_be music studio w/o a sub.

the THD ratings on a lot of those cards are very low. a lot of the aftermarket PCI audio cards are very good, and definitely worth the money for critical I/O use. i know the MAudio audiophile card is extremely quiet.
that audiotrak looks very good as well. they have some good reviews through their site.

*edit*
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 is the model # in case anyone was curious.

[Shrubman]

a few more months. :mad:

I know it would take a little effort, but would you mind A/B'ing your sound card digital output vs. your motherboard's? I'm curious to know how much audible distortion a motherboard chipset makes vs. a good soundcard. I know the analog mini-din output from my motherboard sucks hard. Static, distortion, you name it. I'll be testing the digital coax output this weekend, and see if it sucks equally. If so, I'll have to buck up for a PCI sound card, so your review is important to me! :cool:



I would love to help you out, but my motherboard, though "Soundstorm Equipped" is a non-deluxe model Asus A7N8X-X and lacks an s/pdif connector. In the past I simply tapped into the low-fi minijack on the back.

Thanks for all the words of wisdom!

[bikeman]

Does anyone have any experience with this unit?

http://www.xitel.com/product_phfl.htm

Thanks,
David

[sensibull]

I'm curious to know how much audible distortion a motherboard chipset makes vs. a good soundcard. I know the analog mini-din output from my motherboard sucks hard. Static, distortion, you name it. I'll be testing the digital coax output this weekend, and see if it sucks equally. If so, I'll have to buck up for a PCI sound card, so your review is important to me!

When I said "distortion" in my last post re: mobo digital out, I meant it in the generic sense of "changed" not the specific audio-vis sense of overblown or clipped sound. Assuming you set it to output only digital (many mobos have a setting to include analog from the spdif as well) you should be able to get a pretty clean signal. I have A/B'ed the digital out on my ASUS P4P800 Deluxe with both a USB M-Audio Sonica (very similar to the Xitel unit asked about, but now discontinued) and my new Chaintech AV-710 ($25 from NewEgg). Both of the latter two retain a CD's native 44.1hz, while the mobo resamples to 48hz, which changes the sound in ways that are not easy to describe. Extra emphasis in the low end and brighter highs are most obvious, but there are others. Basically, I wanted to be sure I was hearing the music as its creators intended, so I went with a card I could get bit-perfect output with. This is also important if you ever intend to send DD/DTS signals from you PC/HTPC to your receiver. Although most mobos with digi-out can do it with the proper drivers, it is often a headache to get it working. Better cards usually have better drivers (or in the case of the Chaintech, are compatible with a host of drivers and can even be "flashed" with other firmware and essentially become an Audiotrak Prodigy). That's why I had to ditch the Sonica...

According to this thread over as AVS, the Xitel's digital outs do resample (though the engineers claim with no audible difference). Apparently the analog ports do not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368379&highlight=xitel

Hope that helps.

[bikeman]

"Hope that helps"

It helps a lot. I've got some homework to do. Thanks, Sens.

David

[S_rangeBrew]

The Chaintech uses optical output, and all my optical inputs on my 1014tx are used up.

Thank you for all the great information!

[cestlavie]

Sorry for hijacking the thread for a second, but someone earlier was asking about the prodigy 7.1lt. I have the prodigy 7.1 no lt, and I love it. The sound of music through ASIO playback is great, and makes a night and day difference, everything is cleaner and such. But I think the debate in computer soundcards really comes down to games vs music, much like the HT debate of movies vs music. Generally cards are better at one then the other, and while I can rave about the prodigy for music, it really sucks with games. Seeing as how creative is the standard for games with it's EAX technology, the best the prodigy has is sensura's q-sound. If you are planning on games and music, the best thing to do is maybe wait for the currently super expensive creative audigy 4 to come down in price, as it supposedly has bitperfect playback as well, as confirmed in a review I read on it, and has the capability for next gen games. In regards to comp-> HT haven't tried it yet, but if it sounds anything like what it has done for my computer, well worth the money for music, pretty terrible for games (but maybe I just don't know how to configure everything right, direct wire is pretty confusing IMHO). Found my used on HardOCP for 50 bucks.

C'est

[Shrubman]

I believe I'm the one who brought up the Prodigy 7.1LT. If I haven't made it clear yet, I am now in posession of the card. So far so good. I've mainly used the digital out, though tonight I tried the headphone jack. It's pretty nice to be able to run both at once.

[cestlavie]

You try out the asio feature yet? if you haven't I highly recommend it, stream asio to winamp through ASIO4ALL and you will never go back, if I am correct about the type of people who enjoy ascend sounds.

[Shrubman]

Yeah, I run ASIO out from J. River's Media Center. Good stuff...