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Nicholas Mosher
02-26-2005, 01:53 PM
I've spent the past four days listening to the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s and feel I can give a review on them. I'd say that I have about 48hrs on them (pretty much became a hermit the past week) listening to two channel redbooks, DD5.1, and DTS5.1. For equipment I'm using a Denon DVD-2900 optical player, Outlaw Audio Model 950 pre/pro, Rotel RMB-1075 amplifier (120Wx5), and Outlaw Audio interconnects.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/aa5.jpg

I received one speaker single-boxed, while the other four came double-boxed in pairs. They were all packaged well, and no damage was found. The first thing I noticed when picking these small speakers up was their density. The cabinet really is rock-solid, and I can't detect any noises interjected into the sound by it. The exterior of the cabinet is quite plain looking. A black box with a flat textured finish. Personally I like the simplicity of it. If you're looking for Rosewood with pewter inlays, this isn't your speaker. From my height and seating position, I found that 30" stands place the tweeter at ear level. The StudioTech SP-30 steel stands have a similar design and finish to the CBM-170s at a reasonable price.

The front left and right speakers are angled directly at my seating position, while the surrounds are to my sides. As I said before, all of the speakers are at the same height, with the tweeters at ear level. Output was calibrated using the AVIA calibration DVD along with a Rat Shack SPL meter. I managed to get all channels calibrated within 1dB of each other from my seating position. I don't have a sub yet, so all speakers were set as Large. I found the audible low frequency extension in my room to be 55Hz, pretty good compared with the specs given by Ascend.

I started off with Master and Commander in 5.1 DTS. Immediately I was impressed with the seamless soundstage. The depth and ambiance was fantastic. The speakers dissapeared, and the walls of my room fell away. I was surrounded by the roaring ocean. Now I've come to believe through experimentation that the most important part of creating these effects are speaker placement and calibration. However, you have to have a good source, clear processing/amplification, and speakers that have quiet cabinets with a tone you like. Poorly mixed 5.1 tracks easily destroy this effect, and you feel like you're listening to speakers again. Some films even have scenes with good sound spaced with scenes with poor sound. This actually becomes distracting as the soundstage expands and contracts. I was dissapointed to find one of my favorite films Ronin does this in some scenes.

After letting the speakers break in, I'm still impressed with the midbass and midrange. It is some of the clearest, accurate sound I've ever heard. My other speaker consideration, the Paradigm Studio 20 isn't nearly as good in this area. On the tweeter end, I honestly have to say that I prefer the Studio 20's, but the difference in quality between the upper range is small compared to the difference in quality of the midrange. Even if the price were equal, I would still take the Ascends for the midbass/midrange. Drums, pianos, doors, and footsteps sound so real its incredible. Sometimes when someone knocks on a door I have to pause the film to make sure I don't have company waiting on the front porch, especially when its an offscreen sound effect that I didn't see an actor do. Fantastic!

In two channel recordings, I notice a huge difference in quality between older recordings and new. I also found that some of my artist compilation albums I've picked up in the checkout aisles have very poor transfers (which erks me). Listening to Hell Freezes Over, I had to get up and make sure the center channel was off because the imaging was so good. This effect carries over into 5 channel audio to create incredible panning effects of bullets and other objects that move across the room. While watching Little Nemo, I noticed for the first time during some scenes that the soundtrack pans back and forth between the fronts and surrounds. The effect is subtle, but gives you a floating sensation which adds greatly to the films feel. Little Nemo definetly has my favorite sound mix to date. I haven't gotten any DVD-A or SACD discs yet, but I have nothing but high expectations for them. I definetly need a sub because some instruments bottom out below what the 170s can produce. This affects the realism when it comes to critical listening in two channel.

I'm quite happy with the Ascends, and have no intentions of sending them back. I think the next step for me would be Thiels, but at their price point ($3000/pr) I'm quite satisfied with my 170s for the time being. Two thumbs up!

davef
03-01-2005, 05:10 PM
Hi Nicholas,

Thanks for the excellent review and I am really happy that you are enjoying the system!

DeftOne
03-02-2005, 09:22 PM
Nice review Nicholas.

I am creeping closer and closer to pulling the trigger on some Ascends. I am curious as to why you did not go with the 340 center.

the guys at Ascend highly recommended it to me

thanks :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-02-2005, 10:02 PM
The ideal multichannel audio setup (IMHO) uses the same speakers all around at the same height (unless you're a fan of bipole diffused sound). When calibrated correctly, this will give you the most seamless soundstage. After playing around with center channels at hifi stores, I found that having identical speakers on axis with the "sweet-spot" all around gives the best results. The only problem a setup like this presents is the limitations it places on your display options. No tube-tvs or rear-projection. I plan on going with a 42" 480p plasma (in a few months when I save enough dough).

I highly recommend the 170s. For my 18'x10' room they are more than enough.

Ben_Wood
03-03-2005, 05:52 AM
Dolby Labs recommends 5 identical speakers (assuming you're running 5.1) for multichannel audio. How often you will be watching movies will be a contributing factor in whether you opt for a dedicated center channel speaker (CMT 340c). DeftOne, the guys at Ascend put a lot of time and effort (timbre matching) into the development of the 340. I personally run 4 170s and a 340 center for movies and SACD/DVD-a and am totally pleased with the results.

Nicholas Mosher
03-03-2005, 09:59 AM
While I haven't listened to the 340m or 340c, I'm sure they sound excellent given the performance of the 170, and the fact that they share the same drivers.

I personally notice the difference when placing a speaker down below or up above a TV. I gave this issue a higher level of importance over other Home Theater factors (display options, room decor). While I haven't tested the 340c with 170s, I did notice a difference when I auditioned similar setups from Paradigm, B&W, and Thiel (4 Bookshelves w/an M-T-M or horizontally styled center). My personal preference was 5 identical monitors at equal height, and as Ben mentioned, is recommended for many sound formats such as DD, 5.1 DVD-A, and 5.1 SACD. I believe DTS and THX also recommend this speaker arrangement with the exception of the surrounds.

The best thing to do if you're interested is to try it out at a local hifi store, or order both a 170 and a 340 for the center, and choose which one you like best. Then you can either ship one back, or save it if you ever want to upgrade to 6.1 audio such as DTS-ES discreet.

One thing I didn't mention above is that when first getting into this I was nervous that 120W wouldn't be enough power for drawn-out action sequences. After auditioning other speakers with similar sensitivity ratings to the 170, I found that 100W was plenty. My 120W amplifier powers them with spades. In my room (18' x 10' once again) 85dB reference levels are acheived easily with 120W and no audible distortion, maybe some slight congestion in the upper range during complex action scenes compared with speakers at 10x the price (like the Thiels I love). This is when effects are peaking at SPLs that make my ears ring. At normal volumes they sound near-perfect.

Anyways, I don't think you can go wrong with the 170s, and I'm sure the 340s are also impressive.

bikeman
03-03-2005, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=Nicholas Mosher]While I haven't listened to the 340m or 340c, I'm sure they sound excellent given the performance of the 170, and the fact that they share the same drivers.

I personally notice the difference when placing a speaker down below or up above a TV. I gave this issue a higher level of importance over other Home Theater factors (display options, room decor). While I haven't tested the 340c with 170s, I did notice a difference when I auditioned similar setups from Paradigm, B&W, and Thiel (4 Bookshelves w/an M-T-M or horizontally styled center).


If one of the folks from Ascend dosen't answer this, I'll repost Dave F's detailed explanation of the 340C and why it's different from some of the other centers you've listened to and why it's a sonic match for the 170's. It was designed for the 170's, not the 340M's.

My personal preference was 5 identical monitors at equal height, and as Ben mentioned, is recommended for many sound formats such as DD, 5.1 DVD-A, and 5.1 SACD. I believe DTS and THX also recommend this speaker arrangement with the exception of the surrounds.

Nothing wrong with using identical speakers in identical setups but you're one of the few who has that option. The 340C gives us the same result without having to place the a speaker stand and speaker below the display. How it looks is really, really important to SWMBO. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

David

Nicholas Mosher
03-03-2005, 01:22 PM
I hear you on the Wife Acceptance Factor Dave. My father is in Mortal Kombat with my Step Mother over a big-screen TV. I like those shirts that say...

My wife said it was her or fishing... boy I'll miss her.
They should make one for Home Theater! :D

I haven't A/B'd the 340c vs 170 so I can't give an official comparison review, so anything I'm about to say should be taken with a grain of salt. I would have to say (just from what I've read here, and my experiences auditioning various center channel speakers), that the special crossover used in the 340c is a well engineered band-aid to combat the problems of off-axis response and diffraction. How well it works, I don't know, but I'd say to those that do have the option to go with five monitors (whether 340 Mains or 170s) that you should try both ways to see which you like best.

bikeman
03-03-2005, 02:01 PM
"that the special crossover used in the 340c is a well engineered band-aid to combat the problems of off-axis response and diffraction."

This should bring Dave F. out of the woodwork. Good job, Nic. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

David

davef
03-03-2005, 07:27 PM
This is a great discussion and since Bikeman called me out, I thought I better respond :p

Nicholas made some great points and I would have to agree with most of them. If you are after the most seamless and timbre matched multi-channel soundstage possible --- and (I must stress this) you won't be placing your center channel on top of or below a TV and you do not require the lower profile typical of a center channel... ideally, 5 of the exact same speakers are the best way to go, provided they are all mounted and positioned at the same height and with the exact same method (all on stands for example).

That being said, there are also some advantages even in Nicholas' setup to using the 340 center. As most of you know, the center channel is the most critical speaker in the home theater system and our 340 offers improved dynamics, lower distortion, deeper bass and the ability to play really loud if need be. Factors that I feel are just as important as a seamless soundstage.

In Nicholas' setup, it really comes down to personal preference and what your performance goals are; enhanced dynamics and improved clarity vs. a truly seamless soundstage with perfect timbre matching. There is no right or wrong here...

Now.... if you do intend to place the center on top of or below a TV (subjecting the speaker to all sorts of nasty boundary effects), the obvious choice should be the 340 center.


that the special crossover used in the 340c is a well engineered band-aid to combat the problems of off-axis response and diffraction

Well I don't like to think of it as a band-aid (hey, it was hundreds and hundreds of hours of work) it is the only way to compensate for the boundary effects caused by placing a loudspeaker on top of or below a television. There simply is no other way to do it, other than physically placing the speaker in another location (which can hurt the localization of dialogue, so dialogue sounds like it is coming from the TV and not somewhere else).

In this regard, I will say that our “band-aid” works quite well ;)

davef
03-03-2005, 07:37 PM
Hey Nicholas,

BTW, I LOVE the look of the CBM-170s on those SP-30 speaker stands!

Nicholas Mosher
03-03-2005, 10:07 PM
Definetly not trying to knock any other speakers Dave has designed. By what I've experienced with the 170s, I'm sure the other offerings are just as great for their intended application.

I am curious about what you said about the 340 having greater clarity and improved dynamics with less distortion. Would I be right in guessing this is only when playing at high SPLs while pushing the lower end frequencies? I noticed the 340s have a slightly higher sensitivity in the specifications listing, while the 170 frequency response graph shows a flatter plot. Am I seeing two different tweeters between the 170 and 340 as well?

I was also hoping to get an opinion from you about the HSU subs you deal. How do they sound with 2ch music in your experience. I'm also curious about what equipment you use for your own personal HT & 2ch listening.

Thanks,
~Nick

EDIT: Thanks for the comment on the SP-30 stands. I thought they matched the CBM-170s quite nicely. They can't be adjusted like the OMNIMOUNT stands you deal, but you can fill them with sand or lead-shot which is cool. Apparently this is supposed to isolate the speaker in space. I'm going to experiment to see if there is any truth behind it.

DavidD
03-03-2005, 10:17 PM
Now.... if you do intend to place the center on top of or below a TV (subjecting the speaker to all sorts of nasty boundary effects), the obvious choice should be the 340 center.

Well I don't like to think of it as a band-aid (hey, it was hundreds and hundreds of hours of work) it is the only way to compensate for the boundary effects caused by placing a loudspeaker on top of or below a television. There simply is no other way to do it, other than physically placing the speaker in another location (which can hurt the localization of dialogue, so dialogue sounds like it is coming from the TV and not somewhere else).

In this regard, I will say that our “band-aid” works quite well ;)

So...if I plan to put the center on a stand in front of the TV, then you would not recommend the 340 center? Would you recommend getting a 340M or 170 in that case?

metalaaron
03-03-2005, 11:08 PM
nicholas, i would go ahead and get an stf2 with your 170s if you can. it's quite simply an astonishing 2.1 setup for music listening and a superb HT sub to boot. my first hsu sub was the stf2, and i absolutely loved the hsu sound. i brought the vtf3 mk2 into my ht after owning the stf2 for one year just to reach that 20Hz mark and gain some added slam when wanted. although, i'll admit that i don't use the full capability of the vtf3 mk2 by any means. i also think the integrated performance you'll gain from a 5.1 setup is just what you need.

cbm170s are diamonds in the rough. my 170s serve as stereo monitors in 2 rooms and then as rear surrounds in my HT / living room when needed. my 170s have a strange way of following me around the house. ;) i would say that i listen to more stereo material with my 170s than any other speaker i've ever owned. i can't rave about them enough. imho - dave created a masterpiece. they're so right on the money.

i believe you should not have any buyer's remorse about your 170s as i feel that they are fully capable of extreme excellence for HT. (you definitely enjoy them and i only sense a 'what if') you have a spectacular setup w/ 5 identical speakers. the only thing you need is a nice sub to fulfill the .1 extension of the HT. complete that .1 then see what you think. :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-03-2005, 11:17 PM
Metalaaron, I have no "what-if" doubts about my five CBM-170s. They are absolutely fantastic for the money. I definetly plan on adding a sub in the near future, but I'm still doing research and auditioning. I'd probably go straight for the VTF-3 MK2 if I went with HSU simply for the extension and headroom. Trying to find out more regarding its accuracy, speed, and ability to dissapear like the 170s.

Couldn't be more happy regarding the 170s though.

metalaaron
03-04-2005, 07:17 AM
cool.
+/- 1db 18Hz to 125Hz. highly regarded in the sub $1k arena. the avg. linear response makes it a great choice for monitors w/ similar qualities. i recommend SPL adjustments. i believe it integrates w/ 170s to complete a very integrated 20Hz-20kHz range after SPL is adjusted on the sub. SPL meters are fun anyways. it's pretty cool to know what SPLs your vacuum cleaner will reach. :)

some believe speed is a myth. my only observation of the hsu speed is what i'd call accuracy. what i believe is a well controlled woofer combined with a well made enclosure and the right amplification makes it accurate. but, that would also go to describe the unique sound quality a hsu has, IMHO.

curtis
03-04-2005, 08:29 AM
I believe "speed" is how well the sub transitions from one note to the next. This something that is not often published and/or tested, and something that Hsu subs excell in.

Dr. Hsu started out by building his subs for audiophiles first. If you haven't heard the definition differences between subs, most won't understand, it really needs to be experienced. It usually gets glossed over when folks post on the net and high SPL/low Hz gets all the mention.

Nicholas Mosher
03-04-2005, 07:25 PM
I believe "speed" is how well the sub transitions from one note to the next. This something that is not often published and/or tested, and something that Hsu subs excell in.
Good to hear. Thats what I was trying to describe by the word "fast". During bass intensive music or soundtracks, with most of the subwoofers I've heard you simply get a humm that flops around and sounds terrible. The two subs I've heard that I do like can play distinct tones that are sharp and defined during complex tracks. Like in Master and Commander, I like to be able to hear the chest thumping crack of the cannon fire and then the impact of the cannon balls without having just one heavy loose tone throughout the entire scene. Or during a drum solo, I hate when a sub can't play tight kick-drum hits with realistic decay and simply gives off a loud loose woof/thump that carries on with a fuzzy sound. I think I'm going to order the VTF-3 MK2 to try. Just have to finish saving up for one...

jeh
03-04-2005, 09:21 PM
i like those stands, i might get a pair.

Nicholas Mosher
03-04-2005, 10:05 PM
Jeh:
I'm definetly happy with the SP-30 stands. Hififorless had the cheapest price I could find. They nail you on the shipping, but it still comes out cheaper than any other dealer. Definetly heavy. The UPS package weight for 3 pairs was almost 80lbs. Nice, thick gauge steel that has a black powdercoat finish. Nothing to write home about, but they look clean with the CBM-170s.
http://www.hififorless.com/categories.php?categoryid=694

On another note, I ordered my first DVD-A titles today. The Eagle's "Hotel California" and Sting's "Brand New Day". Should get them mid/late next week. I'll be sure to post my experience with the 170s.

http://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/eagles.jpghttp://mysite.verizon.net/nicholasmosher/sting.jpg

jermy4
03-04-2005, 10:18 PM
I ordered the 36" version of those stands from hififorless and they are heavy and compliment the Ascends aesthetically. I filled them with sand and put some wire ties on them since the provided cable management was weak.

They are a really simple design and work very well.

curtis
03-05-2005, 07:42 AM
Nicholas, you need to get your sub for the multi-channel/hi-rez experience your are going to get with those DVD-A's! :)

Do you have your 6 additional interconnects for multi-channel as well?

Nicholas Mosher
03-05-2005, 09:02 AM
I have my six analog interconnects all in place, and ready to go! :)

Actually hit a roadbump last week on the completion of my Home Theater. I got canned at my job, the first time I've ever been fired. It was certainly a new experience :p.

I was all set to purchase a sub, but now I'm holding off and being careful with my cash. I've got some resumes out, and some interviews scheduled for next week. Hopefully I'll be able to pick one up by the end of next month.

In the mean-time, I'll just "suffer" without the LFE channel... :rolleyes:

curtis
03-05-2005, 09:39 AM
Wow...sorry to hear about that. Hopefully you'll get another job quickly! Good luck.

In the meantime...I guess you can enjoy your system more. :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-05-2005, 10:50 AM
Yeah hopefully within the next few weeks I'll be back in the grind. For the past week I've just been relaxing, watching movies, jamming to some great tunes, hiking, and getting fat. :p

metalaaron
03-07-2005, 09:54 AM
Nicholas,

best of luck on your job hunt. i'm sure something will come along. :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-07-2005, 10:14 AM
Thanks Metalaaron. :)

davef
03-07-2005, 11:47 PM
Hi Nicholas,

I am really sorry to hear about the loss of your job... Send me an email and let me know if there is anything I can do. I have family out here in SoCal that work in your field (waste management consultant for Hyperion treatment plant in Los Angeles)


I am curious about what you said about the 340 having greater clarity and improved dynamics with less distortion. Would I be right in guessing this is only when playing at high SPLs while pushing the lower end frequencies?

No, however the audible difference between the two would be more noticeable to a human ear at louder levels. Measurement wise, the difference is noticeable at any volume level.


I noticed the 340s have a slightly higher sensitivity in the specifications listing, while the 170 frequency response graph shows a flatter plot. Am I seeing two different tweeters between the 170 and 340 as well?

Yes.. the tweeter in the CMT-340 is an improved version of the tweeter in the CBM-170. Higher sensitivity is achieved because the CMT-340 uses two woofers wired in parallel, which will deliver 3dB more output for the same voltage level.


I was also hoping to get an opinion from you about the HSU subs you deal. How do they sound with 2ch music in your experience.

I LOVE Hsu subwoofers. I have more different brands and models of subwoofers on hand than I do loudspeakers. I choose to use Hsu in my various systems. Dr. Hsu is really a one-of-a-kind engineer.


I'm also curious about what equipment you use for your own personal HT & 2ch listening.

For 2ch listening, I use a pair of 340 mains on their stands powered by an ADA amplifier and either a Rotel or Marantz processor.

bikeman
03-08-2005, 07:07 AM
"For 2ch listening, I use a pair of 340 mains on their stands"

You don't have prototypes at home? http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

David

Nicholas Mosher
03-08-2005, 08:58 AM
Thanks for the kind words Dave. Just scheduled an interview for next week. Hopefully I'll be back in the swing here soon.

Interesting info. Which naturally leads me to ask... will you be incorporating the improved tweeter into a "CBM-170 v.2", or is the newer tweeter designed specifically for the larger 340? I'm curious about how this tweeter sounds in comparison to the ones in my 170s.

I definetly think a Hsu VTF-3 MKII will be my next purchase (sometime next month I hope).

"The Incredibles" is coming to DVD next week! Pixar makes some of the best computer animation films and has great sound mixing. I missed this one in theaters, and can't wait to get it. My DVD-A titles should arrive soon too, I'll be sure to give some words on how they sound once I try them.

Nicholas Mosher
03-09-2005, 12:10 PM
Well I must say that I'm sold on DVD-A. Stings's "Brand New Day" is spectacular. While many of his songs use electronic effects, they are mixed well. Panning effects are incredible. I really like how backup chorus drifts in from the surrounds. It feels like you're sitting in the front row rather than the nosebleed section. The mixes for the eagles seem like you're sitting in the hollow of a gentle parabolic shaped stage with a guitar/vocal between each surround/main, and one in front. The drums carry across the front soundstage and you can see Don Henley going from the left side of his set to the right.

I also enjoy how you can hear a hint of the front soundstage in the surrounds. One of my biggest complaints about most DD/DTS mixes is that many voices and effects are isolated in individual channels. This type of mixing degrades the seamless-ness of the soundstage for me. While an effect off to the front left should obviously be emphasized there, you should also hear a bit/hint of it in the surround left and center. Some mixes do this but most don't. Both of these DVD-A titles do this well. My only complaints are in Hotel California where in a few spots you could tell where the song was cut together. I must admit that I love the ambiance of live recordings. You can really tell with these DVD-A titles that you are in a deadened room. I like the openness of stage performances, it seems more earthy and less plastic. I'm eager to try some of the Telarc classical discs recorded in large halls.

Two thumbs up though. Now that I've experienced this, I don't think I will be listening to redbooks any time soon. :T :T

ClutchBrake
03-09-2005, 12:26 PM
You don't have prototypes at home?

Good luck getting any secrets out of him, I've been trying for well over a year! :D

Kpt_Krunch
03-11-2005, 05:35 PM
I'm eager to try some of the Telarc classical discs recorded in large halls.




I just picked up my first Telarc disc - an SACD title. It is the Atlanta Symphony doing Beethoven's 9th. Careful going down this path Nick - especially now that you're unemployed temporarily - as buying these disc's can get quite addicting and expensive :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-11-2005, 08:43 PM
I just ordered three more... :p

Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD
Telarc Sampler SACD vol. 1
Telarc Sampler SACD vol. 2

I figured the sampler discs would give me a good idea of what Telarc can do.

Then I'm limiting myself to "The Incredibles" which is coming out tuesday.

If it wasn't for my expensive habits, I would just get a 20hr/wk job making grinders. Unfortunately I have to start interviews this week. I think my freedom will be leashed here pretty soon... :(

Kpt_Krunch
03-11-2005, 10:57 PM
Good call on the Pink Floyd SACD - a great disc, it was made for multi-channel.

I just picked up two more DVD-A's that were on sale tonight at Best Buy - Hotel California and Metallica The Black Album. Listened quickly to both - great discs to be sure!

Nick - let me know what you think of the Telarc samplers, especially if there is any track that really stands out. Been looking for the 1812 overture on Telarc - I've read the Cannons on it is the best Sub woofer test out there. When you get your HSU VTF3 MKII (if that is the route you end up going) and that track is on one of your samplers, make sure you land lord is not anywhere near the house when you try it out :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-12-2005, 08:32 AM
The Hotel California DVD-A is great. My favorite mix was #6 Victim of Love. I plan on getting Metallica's Black Album sometime down the road as well, let me know how it sounds.

I've read the Cannons on it is the best Sub woofer test out there. When you get your HSU VTF3 MKII (if that is the route you end up going) and that track is on one of your samplers, make sure you land lord is not anywhere near the house when you try it out :p
I can't believe how long Amazon estimates for a delivery. The 21st?!?!

I'm going to start buying at the mall again...

Kpt_Krunch
03-13-2005, 10:20 AM
The Hotel California DVD-A is great. My favorite mix was #6 Victim of Love.

I agree - the guitar mix is sheer joy and it just begs to be cranked right up (maybe one day I'll have the house to myself and I'll be able to do that :()


I plan on getting Metallica's Black Album sometime down the road as well, let me know how it sounds.


Another great mix - Enter Sandman is probably the best (the first track) with lot's of voices coming from the side surrounds. Again, a full disc this time that begs to be cranked, but sounds really good at low volumes too. This disc has a particularly good bass mix in it - you're definitely going to want a sub woofer to get that extra punch this offers!

davef
03-16-2005, 01:01 AM
You don't have prototypes at home?


Good luck getting any secrets out of him, I've been trying for well over a year! :D


Prototypes? What prototypes? ;) Anything I have is locked far far away.. in a place safer than Fort Knox :rolleyes:

DavidD
03-16-2005, 02:19 PM
Prototypes? What prototypes? ;) Anything I have is locked far far away.. in a place safer than Fort Knox :rolleyes:

My place is really secure. :-)

DavidD
03-16-2005, 02:20 PM
Prototypes? What prototypes? ;) Anything I have is locked far far away.. in a place safer than Fort Knox :rolleyes:

My place is really secure. :D

metalaaron
03-16-2005, 09:34 PM
i keep having an itch to get a DVD-A / SACD player. actually, ever since the announcement of MetallicA (black album) DVD-A.
quick story...
first band i ever fell in love with was MetallicA. i have approximately 25 MetallicA CDs from throughout the years. during my senior year of high school we went to Disney World for a senior trip. we were specifically told not to go to Pleasure Island. it's also important to note that this is a private (christian) high school. :0 I researched Pleasure Island and found out that they didn't card you if you went in before 7pm. SWEET! --- A bunch of seniors in high school with a good taste of defiance and the college years yet to come. :) Later that night we ended up at a place that allowed you to perform a music video with the help of several props and a blue screen. We were in heaven. We picked MetallicA's Enter Sandman. It was an absolute blast and the video was amazing! I think we had three guitar players, a bass player, and two people sharing the drums. hehe Your's truly took the liberty of claiming and dishing out the air guitar solo. ;) We had a blast. On our way back to Tennessee we popped the video in the VCR on the bus. The screen immediately displayed, "PLEASURE ISLAND" Eeeek! My heart stopped, a couple of friends said a few "oh-NOs" and we were stuck in lingo of either acceptance or detention. The teacher just laughed out loud. In fact, he enjoyed the video so much that he played it for an entire week in his history and economics classes. What a relief! I won recognition from classmates as the best air guitar player in the world, and my best friend received accolades for his amazing impression of james hetfield.

I'm blessed with the memory of this story every time I play the black album through my speakers. Enjoy the music, live it, and love it. Just remember to always play a mean air guitar. :)

Nicholas Mosher
03-17-2005, 03:00 PM
Nice story metalaaron! Metallica's black album is definetly on my to-buy list. I originally had it on cassette in 7th grade... :D

Just received two of my new SACDs (Pink Floyd DSOTM, and Telarc Sampler 2). There was a 2 month back order on Telarc Sampler 1 so I cancled the order. Just spent the last two hours listening. I must say this... Telarc is absolutely fantastic at mixing multichannel audio! This is what I've been looking for in terms of soundstage, spaciousness, depth, and clarity. When you listen at 75dB-85dB, you can really hear the resonance of the environments. The bells in the end theme of Sleepy Hollow are crisp and sound like they are 30ft off to the left hand side, which would be outside of my apartment. The harp in track 5 was breathtaking. The gentle strum of the bass chords cleanly mingling with the razor-sharp plucks of the higher notes gave me the goose-bumps. And I don't even have my sub yet!

Floyd, DSOTM had some positives and negatives for me. The intro to "Time" was definetly in the top 5 for best 5.1 mixes I've ever heard in music or movies. The grandfather clock imaged between the front left and surround left was so accurate I played it atleast 10 times over and over. Unfortunately after about 2 minutes the intro ended, the soundstage collapsed, and the mix became 2nd rate, almost like a glorified 2ch stereo mix. The registers/coin/receipts during the intro to "Money" were fun, but not even in the same class as the clocks in "Time". I did like the mix for Money though. "Us and Them" and "Brain Damage" were mixed great. Very psychodelic and involving. Reminds me of driving down a desert road at sunset. Overall very well done.

I plan to invest some serious cash into Telarc titles after I get my sub... a new display for my home theater can wait... :D

EDIT: Oh! And whats with the cheap regular 'ole CD case that DSOTM came in? I like the thick plastic juggernaut cases my other titles were protected in.

Nicholas Mosher
03-17-2005, 08:09 PM
Sold my convertible that was slowly becoming a headache to maintain. Paid my bills ahead a couple months, and I have $750 for a sub.

I'm really unsure about what to go with. I keep switching back and forth between the HSU VTF3-MKII ($750 Shipped) and the SVS PCi 16-46 ($675 Shipped). Originally the PC-Ultra was at the top of my list, but I don't think I need that much sub for my room. I'm looking for clean bass at moderate SPLs (75-85dB) as deep as my money can afford (budget is around $750). I need it to blend with 5 bookshelves in an 18'x11' room. My room is a half-octogon so the volume is actually only around 1400ft^3.

Then I read the review of the little PB10-ISD ($470 Shipped) at Secrets and gawked at their readings of +/- 1dB from 19Hz-100Hz (I realize my room will distort this). Even with a steep low-frequency roll-off, SVS claims it can produce effective in-room response down to ~17Hz! I also like the looks of the driver...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-woofer.jpg

I'm really starting to wonder what I actually need, and what my eyes see and want. In a toss-up here. By the way, here is an ad I spotted on SVS' site thats kinda funny...
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/animation.htm

EDIT: Here is the review of the SVS PB10-ISD at Secrets...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

Lee Bailey
03-17-2005, 08:26 PM
Sold my convertible that was slowly becoming a headache to maintain. Paid my bills ahead a couple months, and I have $750 for a sub.

I'm really unsure about what to go with. I keep switching back and forth between the HSU VTF3-MKII ($750 Shipped) and the SVS PCi 16-46 ($675 Shipped). Originally the PC-Ultra was at the top of my list, but I don't think I need that much sub for my room. I'm looking for clean bass at moderate SPLs (75-85dB) as deep as my money can afford (budget is around $750). I need it to blend with 5 bookshelves in an 18'x11' room. My room is a half-octogon so the volume is actually only around 1400ft^3.

Then I read the review of the little PB10-ISD ($470 Shipped) at Secrets and gawked at their readings of +/- 1dB from 19Hz-100Hz (I realize my room will distort this). Even with a steep low-frequency roll-off, SVS claims it can produce effective in-room response down to ~17Hz! I also like the looks of the driver...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-woofer.jpg

I'm really starting to wonder what I actually need, and what my eyes see and want. In a toss-up here. By the way, here is an ad I spotted on SVS' site thats kinda funny...
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/animation.htm

EDIT: Here is the review of the SVS PB10-ISD at Secrets...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

The PB10-ISD is a steal for the price. Though I've never listened to an HSU sub, I simply love my 25-31PC. It is serial number 10 ( I was an early adopter). It has had both its driver and amp upgraded from swap outs with SVS. (The ISD driver, and the 300 Watt Bash AMP). I can shake the crap out of my house now, I can't see the need for more bass. Our living room is 16Wx24L with a vaulted ceiling varying in height from 8 to about 12 ft. Of course, if you don't like it, you can return it, though at your expense. I don't think many SVS buyers return their products! Just like I don't think many Ascend buyers return theirs either.. :D

curtis
03-17-2005, 09:15 PM
I have heard subs from each company.

Without saying which is better....I will say that there is a definite difference in how the subs I heard sound...especially in the upper bass.

It is something, that I feel, many do not understand until they actually hear it.

On top of that, their marketing styles differ greatly.

Nicholas Mosher
03-18-2005, 10:47 PM
I've pretty much given up on the discussion forums for getting info on these subs... :p

I'm attracted to the Hsu VTF3-MKII because of its depth of frequency response and reported clarity. Ideally I would listen to it, but I'm kind of swinging at a pinata blindfolded here with a million people telling me "Left!" and others screaming "Right!". Keeping with my price/performance guidelines I've been building my HT with, the PB10-ISD appears to have a similar depth to its response capability along with extraordinary distortion numbers and flat response curve tested by "Secrets". I know right off the bat that it can't fill a huge room like the VTF3-MKII, and it's maximum SPL level will be lower, but I'm not trying to fill a stadium with my 1400ft^3 enclosed room, and I'm in an apartment so it will probably be kept around 75-85dB anyhow. My hopes are to touch infrasonic pipe organ notes and have clean tight bass up to the crossover point with my CBM-170s at reasonable SPLs. The VTF3-MKII seems like the only sub by HSU that can play in the infrasonic range but is $275 more than the PB10-ISD shipped. I think I'm going to give the PB10-ISD a try. If it's loose in the 30-70Hz range or heavily distorted in the 17-25Hz range I'll kick it back to 'em. I'm confident the HSU would do the job, but I'd hate to find that the SVS could do what I was looking for at almost $300 less.

Just a summation of my recent thoughts... :confused: :p

jimsiff
03-19-2005, 12:29 AM
I don't think you'll be dissapointed with the SVS. I have a VTF3-Mk II myself and love it, but I have a much larger room to fill. I view the SVS vs. Hsu debate similar to the Rocket vs. Ascend debate. There's passionate followers of both sides, and really no wrong answer as long as your ears do the decision making. Based on how well you researched your present setup, I'm sure you'll make the best decision for you.

jermy4
03-19-2005, 08:15 AM
The VTF3-MKII seems like the only sub by HSU that can play in the infrasonic range but is $275 more than the PB10-ISD shipped. Have you talked to Ascend about this? Because they sell these and also give package discounts. I know that you recently purchased your Ascends. I'm not sure what the discount is, but it might make a difference.

Quinn
03-19-2005, 08:57 AM
Dave F. has designed subs before. You might get his advise.

Kpt_Krunch
03-19-2005, 09:51 AM
Nicholas - my buddy who has Rockets also bought a PB-10 whatever SVS sub. I'm not impressed with it though to be fair it is currently sitting in a room that that is very big (he's currently working on the planning stage of his home theatre so I don't want to pass any real judgement on it until it is in a smaller, dedicated room). For your room size my guess would be that the PB-10 would be fine. However, it is not what I would call 'tight'. From reading your reviews on the various SACD's and DVD-A's you have, you obviously have a very keen ear and appreciate the subtleties of what music and movies have to offer.

Though I've never met him personally, I have grown to really respect Curtis Chang's opinions on various components. If he gives you detail of how a speaker or sub sounds, he's not blowing smoke up your 'arse' for a higher purpose. Everything I've ever listened to that Curtis has and posted about both publically and privately with pm's has been bang on. I've never heard the HSU, but if Curtis says it is an accurate (for subs) subwoofer that's good enough for me. When I decide on upgrading my sub down the road (have no plans to right now but who know's what the future may hold) the HSU will be right at the top of the list.

I know what you mean about trying to decipher all the 'hype' found on all the forums for these subs. I find that SVS is #1 in my books in terms of 'turn-offs' from all the 'owners' who decry all other sub's if it's not an SVS. I'm not saying SVS is a 'bad' sub - I just don't take people who say "SVS rocks and all other subs are crap" very seriously.

Bottom line is there are a lot of crappy subs out there, and a lot of good ones. My guess is Dr. Hsu and his subs fall into the latter category, and I'm looking forward to the day I order mine :)

Good luck with your purchase Nicholas - I would be very interested to read your review on the SVS sub, you're very thorough and pull no punches, which I find very refreshing!

Quinn
03-19-2005, 10:04 AM
I know what you mean about trying to decipher all the 'hype' found on all the forums for these subs. I find that SVS is #1 in my books in terms of 'turn-offs' from all the 'owners' who decry all other sub's if it's not an SVS. I'm not saying SVS is a 'bad' sub - I just don't take people who say "SVS rocks and all other subs are crap" very seriously.



I guess you missed SVS threatening Curtis with legal action over on AVS last week. The threat really blew up on SVS from a PR stand point. Many were shocked at the heavy handed tactics by SVS. Of course if you've been on HTF a while you know that Craigsub deleted his review that was critical of an SVS product last year under pressure from SVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5298152#post5298152

Nicholas Mosher
03-19-2005, 10:32 AM
Being unemployed :D, I spent about four hours on AVS yesterday reading reviews. People on both sides of the fence were voracious and of no help (including anti-SVS protesters). Some threads even degraded into politics battles?! I think the only way I'll find out will be to simply order it. While I have had good luck blind ordering my CBM-170s and Outlaw Pre/Pro, I'm not afraid to ship something back, especially at these prices. You can be sure that I'll post a review ;)...

(btw., please don't spin this thread out of control! :rolleyes: )

GaryB
03-19-2005, 10:43 AM
Nicholas, I will be very surprised if you are anything but delighted with the SVS PB10-ISD. IMO, in a room the size of yours, it will give you all the output and extension you could possibly want. If you were in a much bigger room, with "mains" capable of higher output (like the CMT-340s), then I might suggest going more "upscale" - but you're not. I think you will find that the PB10 perfectly complements the capabilities of your CBM-170s, and the cabinet finish is virtually identical as well (Dave F. says that both HSU and SVS copied Ascend's standard finish). And I can tell you from personal experience that the bass "quality" is excellent as well - in all respects.

I will not participate in yet another ridiculous SVS vs. HSU verbal bash. Many are annoyed by SVS's "over the top" marketing style but their products speak for themselves. Both companies make excellent subs and provide excellent customer support.

Good luck!

curtis
03-19-2005, 11:25 AM
Nicholas, as you have read on all the forums...subwoofers can be an emotional topic. I have been involved in more than enough of them, and I still have buttons that can set me off.

The bottomline is there are differences, and only those that have actually compared subs will understand them.

If you can't compare, it is safe to say that either will make you happy. In that regard, it is a no lose situation. If you want to get what is absolutely the best for you, then you owe it to yourself to try the ones in your list.

As far as all the negativity on the forums, it is my opinion that they are almost useless for a newbie when it comes to subs. You really have to dig to get good information, and sometimes it is better not use the forums at all.

For that infrasonic pipe organ stuff, even that has texture.

curtis
03-19-2005, 11:29 AM
Almost forgot...

To make your head spin even more, don't count out subs from Adire and ACI.

Kpt_Krunch
03-19-2005, 07:53 PM
I guess you missed SVS threatening Curtis with legal action over on AVS last week. The threat really blew up on SVS from a PR stand point. Many were shocked at the heavy handed tactics by SVS. Of course if you've been on HTF a while you know that Craigsub deleted his review that was critical of an SVS product last year under pressure from SVS.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5298152#post5298152

Yeah - I've been too busy with the Rocket vs. Ascend thread and 6FU going at it with everyone. I guess speakers and subs sure bring out a lot of emotions in people :). I liken it to sports discussions "Our team is better than yours".

I hope no one here reading my earlier post thought I was implying that SVS did not make a good a sub (especially the good folk over at SVS). The finish of the PB-10 is very similar to Ascends and would be a very good match cosmetic wise. I guess my big problem is that based on all the reviews for the sub I had real high expectations for the PB-10, and as I mentioned it is not in an ideal room for it's size, and it is mated with Rocket 750's.

I'll have to read this thread and find out what all the fuss is about, thanks!

Nicholas Mosher
03-19-2005, 08:52 PM
Listening to subs at hifi stores, I quickly found that subs meeting my expectations were way out of my price range (The Thiel subs were incredible).

The Adire unit doesn't appear to have the capability to hit infrasonics like I'm drooling for. The ACI Force unit looks like another good option, but with shipping it will be even more expensive than the Hsu VTF3-MKII. Given the size of my room, I'm hoping the PB10-ISD with its low distortion numbers and flat anechoic FR will be a diamond in the rough at its $475 (shipped) price tag. At that price, I could also eventually buy two and really smooth out my rooms FR along with a couple EQs (looking down the road).

The whole key will be how my ear feels the sharpness of the response is. I'm going to order one on Monday I think. I'll give a review once I've properly set it up and had time to audition it. I've got some job interviews this week too...

curtis
03-19-2005, 09:43 PM
In the very least, you will have fun with it. Looking forward to your thoughts. I was hoping you would get both, hear the differences, and post thoughts....but you need to get that job first. :D

Nicholas Mosher
03-19-2005, 10:27 PM
In the very least, you will have fun with it. Looking forward to your thoughts. I was hoping you would get both, hear the differences, and post thoughts....but you need to get that job first.
I figure its worth a shot. I've been really careful about spending my cash on diminishing returns with my audio setup. Unfortunately unlike all the rest of my components, I haven't yet found a bargain on a subwoofer with a sound/feel I like. Everything I heard blind testing at hifi stores that I liked was $1.5k+... :rolleyes:, and that was just with movies nevermind what I liked for music.

I did hear a SVS PCi 20-39 which sounded good with DD/DTS tracks, but didn't get the chance to hear it with DVD-A/SACD (which has now become an addiction even though I only own 4 titles :D ). Aside from my hopes about the PB10-ISD being responsive, I'm guessing that given my room size I will be using a low gain setting. I'm wondering just how fast the lower end rolls off, and how deep this sub will go with a low gain setting. I bounced this question to SVS last Thursday, but haven't received a respose yet.

Nicholas Mosher
03-21-2005, 02:39 PM
I crossed my fingers and ordered a PB10-ISD in black this morning.
I guess at the very least others will get an informal review of it from me... :p

Hopefully I'll get it by next weekend.

jeh
03-22-2005, 06:02 AM
i got those stands today...they're great for the 170's.

Nicholas Mosher
03-22-2005, 09:03 AM
Yeah, they're nice and heavy, sand fillable, and match the style/color/finish of the 170s almost perfectly. I knew I wanted them as soon as I saw 'em.

Glad to hear you like them!

jermy4
03-22-2005, 09:08 AM
I was not crazy about the stands that Ascend is selling. They should consider selling something more like the studiotechs that we bought.

indianrider
03-30-2005, 08:58 AM
I crossed my fingers and ordered a PB10-ISD in black this morning.
I guess at the very least others will get an informal review of it from me... :p

Hopefully I'll get it by next weekend.


Did you get a chance to test the SVS? How do you like it? I am getting a similar setup to yours except with 340's for fronts.

curtis
03-30-2005, 09:21 AM
You can read about Nicholas' trials here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522702

and here:
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=7748#post7748

Nicholas Mosher
03-30-2005, 10:23 AM
Just listening to music with the SVS PB10 off, I'm still amazed at these 170s. I almost take them for granted now. They really are the cornerstone of my system, and the best performance/value pieces in my entire setup.

Absolutely incredible sound. :cool:

chas
09-11-2006, 12:28 PM
Hey Nick,

Stumbled on a post of yours on some other forum saying you were selling off your entire system and going two-channel...what gives?