Considering Ascends... dumb question..

[DeftOne]

Hello!

Nice friendly forum y'all have here!

One quick question, When and Why would I not want to use accurate loudspeakers?

Sounds silly I know, but why wouldn't all loudspeakers be designed to be very accurate and are there certain times I wouldn't want an accurate loudspeaker?

-just a bit confused :p

[Quinn]

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want an accurate speaker.

It isn't easy to design a speaker with as flat of a response curve as Ascends have. That is why you will find so few.

Some like the highs "tipped up" some like the mid-range emphasised and others like the bass accentuated.

[Eddie Horton]

I agree with Quinn that all loudspeakers should be as accurate as possible. Personally, all the golden eared audiophile terms like "lush, warm midrange" and "slightly rolled-off highs that sound like my (insert expensive brand name) tube amp" don't mean anything to me. It's mostly fluff. Wait, I misspoke......I think it's all fluff.

[BradJudy]

It also depends on what you mean by 'accurate'. There are many speakers out there that are very good at reproducing minute details in music. So good that poorly recorded/produced music sounds quite bad. This is where someone has to pick their favorite spot in the trade-off spectrum (this is sometimes refered to as how 'forgiving' or 'detailed' a speaker is). Some will sacrifice the sound of their poorly recorded music so that their more well recorded items sound better, others would rather not. Placing speakers on that spectrum is difficult (partially because there are a lot of factors in play). I think it's safe to say that Ascends do a better job reproducing details than most typical consumer speakers, but not as well as many expensive high-end ones. Putting a finer point on it requires comparison with other speakers with your ears.

[bamputin]

yo deftone, w'sup my haggo free-angler choco?


One quick question, When and Why would I not want to use accurate loudspeakers?

if you had a big steaming pile of BAD SOFTWARE. i.e. a lot of poorly recorded music, badly mastered dvd's, badly produced music/dvds. you get the picture. 'accurate' speakers (thumbs up for the ascends) are renowned for revealing every flaw and lack of detail in such bad material.. so my opinion is that the only feasible reason one could not want accurate speakers was if one wanted to never listen to good recordings on one's speakers.

hope that helped

[sensibull]

Just to follow up a bit on what Bamputin said... I've found that, compared to my previous speakers (which, admittedly, were no great shakes), the spectrum of fidelity in my music collection becomes *much* wider and more apparent. By that I mean the difference between a DVD-A, an HDCD, a 24bit remaster, a decently recorded 16bit standard CD, a low-fi hackjob, and a MP3, is truly discernible, to the point where I really don't want to listen to anything that doesn't do justice to the Ascends. This has changed my listening habits pretty dramatically, for the better I believe, but if your screen name bears any relation to your music tastes, Deftone, you may find yourself wincing at the hyper compression so rampant in Nu-Metal recordings these days... (e.g. my copy of the new Janes Addiction album stays in my car for this reason)

Just my $.02 (you may want to PM Metalaaron, though, to see what he thinks)

[Eddie Horton]

Wow, another Jane's Addiction fan!!!!! I thought I was the only one left. Cool.

[Quinn]

Wow, another Jane's Addiction fan!!!!! I thought I was the only one left. Cool.


The first two albums are still their best. I don't care for the wall of sound style of the present album at all

[sensibull]

The first two albums are still their best. I don't care for the wall of sound style of the present album at all

Yeah... that's kinda what I mean by compression. No room left for dynamics at all, and the CD sounds like an MP3. But maybe we better start our own Jane's thread, 'cause we're hijacking this one...

[DeftOne]

thanks for the responses.

So if I understand correctly, for older recordings a less accurate speaker might be preferred but for newer better recordings accurate speakers are preferred?

I have a lot of older recordings even vinyl, guess I just have to listen for myself :rolleyes:

[BradJudy]

Don't associate older with worse and newer with better. I have run across some pretty poor current recordings from good performers. I recommend that people put together a demo CD of a variety of music they like when visiting audio stores. Don't only select things you know to be well recorded - put on some ones you suspect might not be. When you try them on detailed speakers, you will quickly be able to tell.

[Quinn]

There are plenty of great older vinyl recordings and many new badly done digital recordings.

[jamesg]

Most notably: Red Hot Chili Peppers Californication. I would like my money back please. Never before has such excellent music been recorded worse.

My $0.02: Steely Dan Gaucho is my personal fave recording for crispness.

[DeftOne]

thanks for the responses. I am starting to understand the benefits and possible drawbacks (if you could consider hearing everything you are supposed to hear as a drawback) of accurate loudspeakers.

Wondering though, would you consider audiophile speakers accurate speakers? I recently heard a pair of revels (don't remember what model) but they had a cool looking curved grille. they sounded great to me but I am wondering if these speakers (way out of my budget) would be considered accurate.

[curtis]

Judging by the test done at Soundstage...I'd say Revels are accurate.....maybe not as accurate as the CBM-170 though. :D

http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html

[bamputin]

the term 'audiophile' can be a bit confusing. for example; to my mate, his pioneer car amp and speakers are 'audiophile'. to me, i can think of a few reasons why his car setup is not audiophile. for example pioneer don't make good speakers under their brand 'pioneer' (they do make some good speakers under a brand called 'tad' which is available in asia only?). also, i think that audiophile and car hi-fi don't go together, mainly because of road noise, engine noise, wind noise and a bunch of other factors which make me want to pull the head off a big rat.

so you can see how anything can be classified as audiophile. to answer your question, i think that accuracy is a big part of whether or not a speaker is worth its weight in salt or other assorted spices.

[Lou-the-dog]

...which make me want to pull the head off a big rat.

Or as I might say, "Enough to make me wanna eat worms!" :D

[cestlavie]

Being more familiar with car audio I can give a very good reason for why people don't want "accurate" speakers.

The classic tradeoff of SPL vs SQ in terms of cars, maybe not so much in home, is evident, where some people are willing to trade off SQ, to have ear shattering bass or highs. My roommate for example listens to rock. He likes the sound of klipsch horns, which although harsh, I do feel correctly go with rock music more. Is that to say the klipschs or ascends are more or less accurate? I would say no. It's a matter of musical taste, type of music you enjoy, and volume preference.

but JMHO,
C'est

[bamputin]

i guess what i was trying to say is that when you get used to accurate sound reproduction, trading off sq for spl is a compromise. which could only be a reflection of budget (if you can't afford powerful and accurate).

[metalaaron]

i saw a pair of revels on the movie "what women want" ;)

jamesg,

funny you mentioned Californication because I was thinking about that CD while I was reading this thread. I was also very disappointed with its quality.

[Eddie Horton]

Aaron, I now notice gear in movies and TV show's that I used to not. In an episode of Friends, Joey and Chandler has a pair of Martin Logans in their apartment. I don't know if they were there all the time, because I didn't watch it on a regular basis.

[metalaaron]

ha, cool!

[DeftOne]

Just wanted to say thanx. I've leaned a ton in the past month from reading various forums and discussions. I don't feel like a "newb" anymore thanks to many of you (and the guys at Ascend and their competitors). I am pretty much sold on going with CBM-170s all the way around with a 340 center. As James recommended I could always add 340 mains later on and move the 170s to have a true 7.1 system.

Can't decide on a subwoofer yet and it is stressing me out. Seems like any public discussion between subwoofers on many forums ends up becoming a useless pissing contest. oh well.

[bikeman]

Can't decide on a subwoofer yet and it is stressing me out. Seems like any public discussion between subwoofers on many forums ends up becoming a useless pissing contest. oh well.

I believe that's because so few of the posters have actually A/B'ed subs. Curtis has and I put a lot of stock in what he has to say. I followed his advice and auditioned the 340's. That was one very good move. Right now I'm leaning toward a Hsu but I'll wait till the new ones are introduced and I can get some feedback.

David

[Quinn]

Can't decide on a subwoofer yet and it is stressing me out. Seems like any public discussion between subwoofers on many forums ends up becoming a useless pissing contest. oh well.

You could call Dave and ask him why he chose to carry Hsu.

[Eddie]

I recently found a link to a hometheaterforum.com review in which the SVS PB10 was directly compared to the Hsu STF-3 and the SVS won. Very lengthy, detailed, appears scientific---not that I really know squat about the "science" behind audio of course:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190398

Would love to hear a comparison of the TRULY cheap entry level subs, like the $125 Dayton from partsexpress.com that I keep reading about on these forums, versus the $200 entry level JBL e150 (which I have, alas) versus the $300 Hsu STF-1 and the $400 SVS PB10.

My curiousity is, the SVS costs 4 times more than the Dayton but is it really FOUR TIMES as good? Or is it more like 50% better? Sure wish I had the time and resources to home audition all these myself...

[bikeman]

This was a comparison of the STF-3 and the SVS entry level 12", PB1-ISD, not the PB10. It's from a year ago and I don't want to reread the whole thing to get my facts straight. SVS has an updated entry level 12" coming, the PB12-ISD/V for $699. This is pasted from the SVS website.

[There's a bit of a surprise sub that's sneaked out of the R/D labs for you too. Our "ISD" woofer is so good, we decided to do a special run of the new deep-extension cabinet you see above, but customized for the great 325 watt BASH amp instead (with user-variable subsonic filter/EQ embedded). So you get a fantastic ISD woofer, variable tuning (20hz native mode with all 3" ports open) and our fine textured cabinets, all for $699. Pre-orders coming soon, with mid-April availability. The PB12-ISD/Vis just another garden-variety killer entry level SVS you didn't see coming. Expect pictures next week.]

The reviewer, Edward J M, is very knowledgeable and a fan of SVS products. That's about all I remember. Curtis may have some imput on this review. I believe he was part of the discussion.

David

[Eddie]

> This was a comparison of the STF-3 and the SVS entry level 12", PB1-ISD, not the PB10.

oops, you're right.

All the more reason for a comparison of the truly entry level subs from each manufacturer, I guess.

[curtis]

The new PB12-ISD/V looks to compete directly with the current Hsu VTF-3MKII.