PDA

View Full Version : Sierra 2 tweeter damage...



MDinno
07-26-2020, 06:38 AM
So my friend bought a pair of Sierra 2 off of the internet but the tweeters aren't working. So can we buy new tweeters from Ascend to replace. There seems to be some tears in the tweeters. Not sure what could have caused this.

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 06:55 AM
Probably caused by someone playing too loud and an amp clipping.

You should call Dina/Ascend on Monday -- they'll likely be able to sell you the tweeters.

S1 to S2 upgrade kits are also available directly on the site. These have the tweeter, but also include woofer and cross-over which you won't need.

MDinno
07-26-2020, 07:16 AM
Probably caused by someone playing too loud and an amp clipping.

You should call Dina/Ascend on Monday -- they'll likely be able to sell you the tweeters.

S1 to S2 upgrade kits are also available directly on the site. These have the tweeter, but also include woofer and cross-over which you won't need.

Thanks...can we upgrade to the EX with the tweeter?

curtis
07-26-2020, 07:42 AM
Thanks...can we upgrade to the EX with the tweeter?
The Sierra-2 and the Sierra-2EX both use the same the same RAAL tweeter, so the answer is yes. The upgrade kit for to the Sierra-1 to Sierra-2EX will also include a woofer, tweeter, and crossover.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AD&Product_Code=7SR1T2EX

The Sierra-1, Sierra-2, and Sierra-2EX all use a different woofer.

The Sierra-1 has a different tweeter.

Did your friend know the speakers were damaged before buying them?

MDinno
07-26-2020, 07:50 AM
The Sierra-2 and the Sierra-2EX both use the same the same RAAL tweeter, so the answer is yes. The upgrade kit for to the Sierra-1 to Sierra-2EX will also include a woofer, tweeter, and crossover.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AD&Product_Code=7SR1T2EX

The Sierra-1, Sierra-2, and Sierra-2EX all use a different woofer.

The Sierra-1 has a different tweeter.

Did your friend know the speakers were damaged before buying them?

The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?

curtis
07-26-2020, 08:05 AM
The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?
You should be able to just get the tweeter if that is what you want.
As racrawford posted, call Ascend/Dina to get your options.

MDinno
07-26-2020, 08:08 AM
Awesome, thanks guys!

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 08:08 AM
RAAL tweeters won't work perfectly if torn...they won't work at all...no way to vibrate to create sound. You could try talking with seller since he was not 100% upfront (he did say about the tear). Depending on how paid, you may have recourse.

If you get the S1 to S2EX upgrade, you get everything needed -- woofer, tweeter, crossover.
If you get the S2 to S2EX kit, you get everything needed - woofer, crossover. No tweeter as S2 and S2EX have same.
So, if you want to upgrade to the EX, that would be the way I'd go. If you just want to replace the tweeters, you'll need to call Ascend. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you one. I blew one on my S2's awhile ago and was able to get a tweeter.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=UPGRADES

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 08:09 AM
Looks like Curtis is a faster typist :-)

Pogre
07-26-2020, 08:12 AM
Eek! "Appears to be torn" is an understatement! My stomach sank for you when I saw the title.

Give them a call. Things are a little upside down over there right now and Dina has been a little slow getting back to me, but was absolutely willing to work with me and I'm sure you guys can get a resolution figured out. Too bad the EX kits don't include a tweeter too. You could not only fix, but upgrade them too.

Just brace yourself. Those tweeters ain't cheap! This is a positive case of you get what you pay for tho. Best sounding tweeters I've heard.

curtis
07-26-2020, 08:16 AM
Looks like Curtis is a faster typist :-)
I've had my morning coffee. :)

Pogre
07-26-2020, 08:17 AM
RAAL tweeters won't work perfectly if torn...they won't work at all...no way to vibrate to create sound. You could try talking with seller since he was not 100% upfront (he did say about the tear). Depending on how paid, you may have recourse.

If you get the S1 to S2EX upgrade, you get everything needed -- woofer, tweeter, crossover.
If you get the S2 to S2EX kit, you get everything needed - woofer, crossover. No tweeter as S2 and S2EX have same.
So, if you want to upgrade to the EX, that would be the way I'd go. If you just want to replace the tweeters, you'll need to call Ascend. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you one. I blew one on my S2's awhile ago and was able to get a tweeter.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=UPGRADES

Man, the tweet in that pic... it looks like someone flat out poked some holes in it! I almost had to sniffle a tear back. Is that what they look like when driven into clipping? I've never seen a torn RAAL before.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 08:21 AM
The seller said in the description about the tweeter having a tear. Even had a pic of it like the one I just posted here that we took but said it worked perfectly. So I don't know He got a great deal on them. Otherwise they are in mint condition. Really excited about getting these speakers so it was a little let down. Sounds like they were blown by an underpowered receiver trying to crank. So you saying I have to get the Sierra 1 to 2 upgrade to get the tweeter? Can we order just the tweeter and perhaps the 2EX upgrade?

Yeah. I think op might have a leg to stand on here. There's no way it's going to "work perfectly" with such a bad tear in it. I hope the buyer has some way to dispute this purchase or got one hell of a discount for those.

MDinno
07-26-2020, 08:23 AM
Eek! "Appears to be torn" is an understatement! My stomach sank for you when I saw the title.

Give them a call. Things are a little upside down over there right now and Dina has been a little slow getting back to me, but was absolutely willing to work with me and I'm sure you guys can get a resolution figured out. Too bad the EX kits don't include a tweeter too. You could not only fix, but upgrade them too.

Just brace yourself. Those tweeters ain't cheap! This is a positive case of you get what you pay for tho. Best sounding tweeters I've heard.

Thats what sucks. The money spent on replacing the tweeters could have been spent for the EX upgrade.

curtis
07-26-2020, 08:25 AM
Man, the tweet in that pic... it looks like someone flat out poked some holes in it! I almost had to sniffle a tear back. Is that what they look like when driven into clipping? I've never seen a torn RAAL before.
I was thinking the same thing and had the same question.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 08:30 AM
I was thinking the same thing and had the same question.

Yeah. I'm seeing what look like pinholes, not tears in that ribbon. Whatever happened to those the perpetrator knows good and well what it was.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 08:34 AM
Thats what sucks. The money spent on replacing the tweeters could have been spent for the EX upgrade.

Is the protective screen in the slot nice and tight still or is it loose or warped in any way? That would indicate the magnet might have grabbed onto something metal and pulled it into the ribbon element. Those magnets are extremely powerful. I know. I tried to measure my towers from the front with a tape measure and it sucked the tape right into the screen. I 'bout shit myself...

MDinno
07-26-2020, 08:44 AM
That's both speakers with the tweeters damaged not just one! We only took a pic of the one. Yeah, it's only speculation as to how they got that way. Like I said the rest of the speakers are in mint condition.

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 09:27 AM
My guess is amplifier clipping.

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 09:36 AM
Looks almost like the one I blew due to amplifier clipping. Pic attached

Jack1949
07-26-2020, 10:22 AM
Is the protective screen in the slot nice and tight still or is it loose or warped in any way? That would indicate the magnet might have grabbed onto something metal and pulled it into the ribbon element. Those magnets are extremely powerful. I know. I tried to measure my towers from the front with a tape measure and it sucked the tape right into the screen. I 'bout shit myself...


I had the same measurement experience and reaction.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 10:48 AM
I had the same measurement experience and reaction.

Did it do any damage? My screen is a little warped now and it scraped my tweeter enough to leave a mark. I was considering sending just the tweeter back so Dave could repair it, but he determined it was only cosmetic and would have no effect on performance. Not worth the cost of repair (~$100 plus shipping both ways). I don't hear any difference and the mark is so tiny you really have to get close with a bright light to see it. At first I thought it was a piece of dust.

Jack1949
07-26-2020, 11:21 AM
I didn't have any damage. Nothing was playing at the time, so maybe I just lucked out.
I didn't even think about the magnets when I stared the measurement, but they quickly came to mind during it. Afterwards I thought "well that was pretty dumb of me".

Pogre
07-26-2020, 11:52 AM
I didn't have any damage. Nothing was playing at the time, so maybe I just lucked out.
I didn't even think about the magnets when I stared the measurement, but they quickly came to mind during it. Afterwards I thought "well that was pretty dumb of me".

I just met you, but we already have much in common! Here's what happened to mine.

1968

1969

Dave told me it's only cosmetic and not worth the cost to repair, but damnit all...

MDinno
07-26-2020, 12:18 PM
So whats the deal with these speakers you can't play loud with them? Never heard of tweeters getting blown. Maybe it's better to order them wit the dome?

racrawford65
07-26-2020, 01:02 PM
they get plenty loud - just have to make sure the amp has the wattage to get to the sound pressure levels you want. No different than any speaker -- if the amp clips, you risk blowing a tweeter.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 01:51 PM
they get plenty loud - just have to make sure the amp has the wattage to get to the sound pressure levels you want. No different than any speaker -- if the amp clips, you risk blowing a tweeter.

Exactly. A combination of not enough power and too much volume will blow any tweeter.

In fact tweeters tend to be the first thing to go when things do go south, whether dome or ribbon. When you exceed an amp's limits and it starts clipping the signal bad things can happen to any speaker.

The Sierra 2s do get plenty loud, but they need good clean power to do it.

SunByrne
07-26-2020, 02:19 PM
So whats the deal with these speakers you can't play loud with them? Never heard of tweeters getting blown.

Really? I've blown loads of tweeters in my lifetime. Especially in college, trying to play too loud.

In fact, for years I had a set of speakers that had Audax tweeters in them, and I blew the tweeters often enough that one time when I was driving through Madison, I stopped at Madisound and picked up a half-dozen of them so I'd be ready to replace them if I had to. (This is pre-internet.) I think I still had a couple left when I finally got rid of those speakers, but I ended up using most of the replacements.



Maybe it's better to order them wit the dome?

The tweeters I used to blow all the time were domes. The problem isn't the tweeters, it's the amp clipping. If your amp never clips, you won't blow a tweeter.

I haven't blown one, dome or otherwise, in ages. Amps are better now, and I have more disposable income to put toward them. I don't generally listen as loud, now, either.

If you're worried about it, decide how loud you want to listen (maximum), your distance from the speakers, look up how efficient your speakers are, and work out how much wattage you need for that volume level (there are calculators for this on the web). Then add at least 20% to that for safety margin, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about blowing a tweeter.

Example: THX "reference level" says you need to hit 105dB for peaks (this is crazy loud, BTW, and I never listen even close to this). But let's say that's your target. Let's say a pair of S2s near the wall, you're 9 feet away. Calculator says 120 wpc, so I'd go for at least 150 wpc. But if you have a 120 wpc amp and try to go to "reference level" loudness, don't be surprised if you end up frying a tweeter. Your midline Dennon 3700 is right around this much power so it'd be chancy.

Pogre
07-26-2020, 02:28 PM
Really? I've blown loads of tweeters in my lifetime. Especially in college, trying to play too loud.

In fact, for years I had a set of speakers that had Audax tweeters in them, and I blew the tweeters often enough that one time when I was driving through Madison, I stopped at Madisound and picked up a half-dozen of them so I'd be ready to replace them if I had to. (This is pre-internet.) I think I still had a couple left when I finally got rid of those speakers, but I ended up using most of the replacements.




The tweeters I used to blow all the time were domes. The problem isn't the tweeters, it's the amp clipping. If your amp never clips, you won't blow a tweeter.

I haven't blown one, dome or otherwise, in ages. Amps are better now, and I have more disposable income to put toward them. I don't generally listen as loud, now, either.

If you're worried about it, decide how loud you want to listen (maximum), your distance from the speakers, look up how efficient your speakers are, and work out how much wattage you need for that volume level (there are calculators for this on the web). Then add at least 20% to that for safety margin, and you shouldn't ever have to worry about blowing a tweeter.

Example: THX "reference level" says you need to hit 105dB for peaks (this is crazy loud, BTW, and I never listen even close to this). But let's say that's your target. Let's say a pair of S2s near the wall, you're 9 feet away. Calculator says 120 wpc, so I'd go for at least 150 wpc. But if you have a 120 wpc amp and try to go to "reference level" loudness, don't be surprised if you end up frying a tweeter. Your midline Dennon 3700 is right around this much power so it'd be chancy.

I thought about mentioning sensitivity too. The Sierra 2 is an amazing sounding speaker but with 86 dB sensitivity it's going to take more power to hit higher spl than say, a speaker with a more average sensitivity of 88-89 dB.

Just a 3 dB (like 86 to 89 dB) difference in sensitivity represents a doubling of power to hit the same spl.

audiohead
07-27-2020, 04:44 AM
I just met you, but we already have much in common! Here's what happened to mine.

1968

1969

Dave told me it's only cosmetic and not worth the cost to repair, but damnit all...

DANG Pogre, AGAIN! you're really giving us a lesson on what not to do.

sorry to see that really! I just had to throw out a comment to ya.

I an still eyeing the DUO center but i cant get the smile i need from the wife , YET.

Qman
07-27-2020, 04:44 AM
You guys are starting to scare me. I've got a pair of 2EX coming (should arrive tomorrow) and now I'm wondering just how fragile these Raal ribbons really are!

MDinno
07-27-2020, 05:14 AM
You guys are starting to scare me. I've got a pair of 2EX coming (should arrive tomorrow) and now I'm wondering just how fragile these Raal ribbons really are!

Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.

Qman
07-27-2020, 06:41 AM
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.

On the other hand, I dont see a lot of dialogue about other customers blowing ribbons. Certainly can't be a common problem or you'd think you'd hear more about it.

Mag_Neato
07-27-2020, 06:56 AM
Keep in mind also, those are regular S2's. The EX uses a steeper rolloff to the RAAL which increases its power handling and dynamic ability, so it can take greater power loads.

Still, make sure you have enough clean power to drive them as loudly as you intend to listen.

Qman
07-27-2020, 07:02 AM
Keep in mind also, those are regular S2's. The EX uses a steeper rolloff to the RAAL which increases its power handling and dynamic ability, so it can take greater power loads.

Still, make sure you have enough clean power to drive them as loudly as you intend to listen.

Thanks..that makes me feel a little better! :)

audiohead
07-27-2020, 07:43 AM
Thanks..that makes me feel a little better! :)

ill try and copy a quote from Dave:
davef davef is offline
Administrator
Join Date
Aug 2003
Location
USA
Posts
4,245
Default Re: Sierra Ribbon Towers and Safe SPL
Quote Originally Posted by Beave View Post
That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.
Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened

post #40 under sierra ribbon towers and safe SPL

Pogre
07-27-2020, 07:50 AM
DANG Pogre, AGAIN! you're really giving us a lesson on what not to do.

sorry to see that really! I just had to throw out a comment to ya.

I an still eyeing the DUO center but i cant get the smile i need from the wife , YET.

Tell me about it! I feel like a speaker abuser!

What's telling tho, is when I mention something like this others suddenly come out of the woodwork and and have experienced the same issues! Tho I will point out that both of my issues were more user error than the fault of the speakers.


Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.

I've never blown a tweeter either, whether dome or ribbon but fried tweeters are a lot more common than you seem to realize. They're usually the first thing to go. Those ribbons can handle high spl, but it has to be clean unclipped power. I really do believe this was a volume control issue with your friend's speakers, not frailty. That is unless someone actually physically poked holes in it, which looks like might have happened.

The tweeter used in the towers is A LOT more robust and can handle 3x the power of the one used in the Sierra 2s. I measured just a hair under 100 dB with my ribbon towers at my seat (15 ft away) and they were barely breaking a sweat. That's incredibly loud, louder than what's safe to listen at for any extended period of time. I repeat tho, it has to be clean unclipped power. I do have a very powerful amplifier.

Pogre
07-27-2020, 07:56 AM
ill try and copy a quote from Dave:
davef davef is offline
Administrator
Join Date
Aug 2003
Location
USA
Posts
4,245
Default Re: Sierra Ribbon Towers and Safe SPL
Quote Originally Posted by Beave View Post
That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.
Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened

post #40 under sierra ribbon towers and safe SPL

That quote seems familiar...


:p

audiohead
07-27-2020, 08:29 AM
I don't think these tweeters need a bad reputation!

I love mine, i have the stereo on all the time now and absolutely love the sound from the towers!

i still am using my Boston Acoustics center and can tell a HUGE difference when the Movies come on! , they sucks compared to the towers.

SunByrne
07-27-2020, 08:54 AM
Yeah, the Ascend towers are high on my buckets list but I would definitely get them with the dome tweeter. I've had my current towers for about twenty years and have cranked them and everything and never had a problem with blowing tweeters.

There is nothing wrong with the RAAL tweeters. The problem here has nothing to do with what kind of tweeter it is.

If your amp clips, you'll blow the tweeter regardless of whether it's a dome or a ribbon.

curtis
07-27-2020, 09:11 AM
There is nothing wrong with the RAAL tweeters. The problem here has nothing to do with what kind of tweeter it is.

If your amp clips, you'll blow the tweeter regardless of whether it's a dome or a ribbon.
This! ^^

Pogre
07-27-2020, 09:12 AM
I don't think these tweeters need a bad reputation!

I love mine, i have the stereo on all the time now and absolutely love the sound from the towers!

i still am using my Boston Acoustics center and can tell a HUGE difference when the Movies come on! , they sucks compared to the towers.

I agree! They are the best tweeters I've heard, and I've been through a lot of speakers. The Sierra ribbon towers are pretty handily my favorite speaker.


There is nothing wrong with the RAAL tweeters. The problem here has nothing to do with what kind of tweeter it is.

If your amp clips, you'll blow the tweeter regardless of whether it's a dome or a ribbon.

Yes, absolutely. It does not matter what form factor it is, if an amp is driven beyond its capabilities it will clip and fry any tweeter. I've been trying to say that in a few posts now.

Tho I still think something was poked at that tweeter. I can't imagine how a tear would make pinholes like that.

racrawford65
07-27-2020, 12:20 PM
Agree with Sunbyrne and others --nothing wrong with the Tower RAAL tweeters. Love mine and can get loud enough for me.

As stated previously by others (and myself like the 2nd post of this thread) - those tweeters in your speakers are torn because an amp clipped. You'll not have any issues with the Towers as long as your amp has enough clean power (the "balls" :-) ) to drive them to levels you want. The speakers are rated at 300 watts continuous and 500 watts peak - so at 10' and 3 db amp headroom, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 db at 300 watts continuous and 106 db peak (if my calculator is right). This is getting close to rock concert levels (around 120 db, unless of course it was Motorhead). 100 db continuous could cause hearing loss in like 15-20 minutes.

davef
07-28-2020, 12:58 AM
So my friend bought a pair of Sierra 2 off of the internet but the tweeters aren't working. So can we buy new tweeters from Ascend to replace. There seems to be some tears in the tweeters. Not sure what could have caused this.

I am sorry to see this. I already sent you a reply email earlier today, but yes - you can easily purchase replacement tweeters from us. Purchasing used speakers is always a risk - but from what you already mentioned, your friend was made aware he was purchasing the speakers with damaged tweeters.

MDinno
07-28-2020, 04:53 AM
Yes Dave I just sent you an e-mail back. My friend ordered the new tweeters from you guys yesterday afternoon. They weren't as expensive as we anticipated so all is well. We didn't realize the Sierra 2 went through some changes and has different tweeters. It's an earlier model Sierra 2. Can't wait to do the 2EX upgrade some day. These speakers are definitely worth it.

racrawford65
07-28-2020, 05:15 AM
Glad all is working out.

Mag_Neato
07-28-2020, 05:17 AM
Yes Dave I just sent you an e-mail back. My friend ordered the new tweeters from you guys yesterday afternoon. They weren't as expensive as we anticipated so all is well. We didn't realize the Sierra 2 went through some changes and has different tweeters. It's an earlier model Sierra 2. Can't wait to do the 2EX upgrade some day. These speakers are definitely worth it.

Different tweeters between early and later S2's? Ruh-Roh Shaggy! Please clarify what differences there are?

MDinno
07-28-2020, 06:55 AM
Different tweeters between early and later S2's? Ruh-Roh Shaggy! Please clarify what differences there are?

The lady at Ascend took down the serial number and it was what she told us. I don't know anything else after that. Not really worried about it.

Mag_Neato
07-28-2020, 07:55 AM
The lady at Ascend took down the serial number and it was what she told us. I don't know anything else after that. Not really worried about it.

Interesting. Dina asked for my S/N's when I ordered the EX kits but never mentioned anything about the tweeter going through any revisions. Not a big deal, this happens often in manufacturing due to supplier issues, etc. I'm sure the change, whatever it is, had nothing to do with the original tweeter being deficient in any way. As a designer I am simply curious as to what actually changed and what the root cause for it was. I've been working on a development project going over 3 years now and have seen a LOT of changes/revisions.

curtis
07-28-2020, 08:20 AM
Dina = The lady at Ascend
We should call her that now. :D

Pogre
07-28-2020, 08:29 AM
Dina = The lady at Ascend
We should call her that now. :D

I just lol'd. :p

racrawford65
07-28-2020, 09:28 AM
I just lol'd. :p

Makes two of us.

jimb
07-28-2020, 09:45 AM
I am sorry to see this. I already sent you a reply email earlier today, but yes - you can easily purchase replacement tweeters from us. Purchasing used speakers is always a risk - but from what you already mentioned, your friend was made aware he was purchasing the speakers with damaged tweeters.

Couldn't they have just replaced the ribbons?

MDinno
07-28-2020, 09:52 AM
Dina = The lady at Ascend
We should call her that now. :D

I didn't mean any disrespect in any way shape or form. Her name skipped my mind while I was typing. I'm really bad with names.

Pogre
07-28-2020, 10:45 AM
Couldn't they have just replaced the ribbons?

Not with the Sierra 2s. You can replace the ribbon element in the larger tweeter used in the towers tho.

curtis
07-28-2020, 12:10 PM
I didn't mean any disrespect in any way shape or form. Her name skipped my mind while I was typing. I'm really bad with names.
I didn't think you meant disrespect. I just thought it was funny.

jimb
07-28-2020, 12:28 PM
Not with the Sierra 2s. You can replace the ribbon element in the larger tweeter used in the towers tho.

Interesting. I guess should be more careful to avoid potential damage on my S2-EXs and Lunas, then! But, I can relax with my Horizon...

audiohead
07-28-2020, 12:51 PM
Dina is super cool! if another stimulus check gets approved i will help stimulate Ascend acoustics with a Sierra DUO order! Hoo-Rah!

I'm afraid to even run the SPL i am hearing about , i am afraid to go over 80DB on my phone meter @ 13 ft,70-75 im rocking!
ill make another post so i don't change the topic

Pogre
07-28-2020, 01:03 PM
Dina is super cool! if another stimulus check gets approved i will help stimulate Ascend acoustics with a Sierra DUO order! Hoo-Rah!

I'm afraid to even run the SPL i am hearing about , i am afraid to go over 80DB on my phone meter @ 13 ft,70-75 im rocking!
ill make another post so i don't change the topic

It's not so much the tweeters as the amp. They get plenty loud with good clean power. I've had my Sierra 2s well above 80 dB at 15 ft. I have a legit 200 wpc (350 at 4 ohm) amp too tho, so I'm not afraid to turn it up a little.

racrawford65
07-28-2020, 01:09 PM
Agreed, plenty loud w/ good clean power. Although, I think audiohead was saying 80 db was loud enough for him... (well, it it's too loud, you're too old... JK). I, too, tend to listen at more sane volumes now-a-days unlike my youth...

Complete agree with audiohead...Dina is super cool. Always enjoy my conversations with her, be it about Ascend Speakers or other topics...

davef
07-28-2020, 05:37 PM
Different tweeters between early and later S2's? Ruh-Roh Shaggy! Please clarify what differences there are?

No, well not really. I believe it was about 1.5 - 2 years ago, we compromised a bit with RAAL to make manufacturing of our custom S2 tweeter and the RAAL OEM 64-10 easier by having them share more parts. No differences in performance, just a very slight change in overall size of the components on the back side of the tweeter - such that newer S2/S2EX tweeters will require a little bit of cabinet filing to slightly open the internal cutout of the tweeter to fit it in older cabinets (a few mm's at most). For anyone doing a Sierra-1 to Sierra-2EX upgrade, or ordering replacement S2 tweeters, we provide the proper S2 tweeter so that filing isn't required. That is at least until we run out of our supply of the S2 tweets.

For the most part, this revision is invisible to our customers. I had previously discussed this in the forum somewhere. This helped RAAL lower manufacturing costs and in turn, helped us keep pricing the same, otherwise we were looking at an increase in price.

This has nothing to do with why we ask for serial numbers, we request this for all upgrades so that we can properly track the speakers. We have had issues in the past with people selling used speakers claiming they were upgraded, but were actually never upgraded...

davef
07-28-2020, 06:01 PM
Additionally, at this point we have a bit over 1000 Sierra-2EX out there being used by our customers. We have yet to have a single reported "blown" ribbon tweeter in S2EX.

As I have mentioned several times, I would not call RAAL ribbon tweeters more fragile - in fact, the 70-20xram (the ribbon in our tower) is absurdly robust, we have only had one customer ever destroy one due to electronics (in many thousands sold) - and that customer melted every internal component of his towers. In fact, with regard to destroying tweeters, we see far more dome tweeters destroyed compared to ribbons.

The difference is that with a ribbon tweeter, you see the physical damage. In a dome tweeter, the burnt-to-a-crisp voice coil is not visible unless you physically tear the tweeter apart. Because the damage to a RAAL ribbon is so clearly visible, they often and wrongfully get a bad rap as being fragile. True, the ribbon diaphragm itself is materially fragile if an object hits or touches the aluminum - but this is why it is protected with the screen mesh.

In a RAAL ribbon, the aluminum "ribbon" element (more properly called the diaphragm) is technically both the voice coil and the dome itself. Any damage to the tweeter is visible - while in a dome tweeter, the voice coil can be damaged but you won't see it until the tweeter just stops working altogether.

Provided that the customer is aware of amplifier clipping, power and the inverse square law for SPL (distance vs spl requirements) - there will really be no issues or concerns. I have run S2's to insane volume levels - even louder with S2EX.

All that said, speakers are like any other mechanical device - they require care and need to be used within their limitations - no different than a car or bicycle - push a mechanical device past its limitations and something is going to give....

davef
07-28-2020, 06:16 PM
Couldn't they have just replaced the ribbons?

Hey Jim,

Ribbon diaphragms are not replaceable in these tweeters, only in the 70-20xram. That said, the cost to replace the complete S2 tweeter is about the same as replacing just the diaphragm in the 70-20xram. If we had made the diaphragm replaceable, the result would have been a significantly more expensive tweeter with a potential compromise to overall performance due to keeping its compact form factor.

Plus, for the average consumer - replacing the diaphragm is complex and difficult, requiring solder skills as well as very steady hands and a heat gun.

jimb
07-30-2020, 10:23 AM
Hey Jim,

..., the cost to replace the complete S2 tweeter is about the same as replacing just the diaphragm in the 70-20xram. ...

Sounds good to me!

mikesiskav
07-30-2020, 06:19 PM
Is the protective screen in the slot nice and tight still or is it loose or warped in any way? That would indicate the magnet might have grabbed onto something metal and pulled it into the ribbon element. Those magnets are extremely powerful. I know. I tried to measure my towers from the front with a tape measure and it sucked the tape right into the screen. I 'bout shit myself...

Same thing happened to me! No damage.

Pogre
07-31-2020, 06:30 AM
Same thing happened to me! No damage.

You too, huh? That's 3 of us now!

audiohead
08-01-2020, 04:23 AM
You too, huh? That's 3 of us now!

I sense another Pogre sticker coming? Magnets are Powerful, keep metal tape measures and other metal objects far away. ;)

curtis
08-01-2020, 07:46 AM
I sense another Pogre sticker coming? Magnets are Powerful, keep metal tape measures and other metal objects far away. ;)
LOL!

FWIW, i try not to put any metal close to the drivers. I’ve measured distance to the speakers before, but with the grilles on, and not exactly at the tweeter.

Pogre
08-01-2020, 08:07 AM
LOL!

FWIW, i try not to put any metal close to the drivers. I’ve measured distance to the speakers before, but with the grilles on, and not exactly at the tweeter.

I was measuring the height of my speaker when it happened. The tape wasn't even touching the towers and the magnet sucked it right into the screen. In retrospect measuring from the front without the grilles on was not the best decision, obviously. I've owned many speakers. I currently have 9 pairs of speakers in my house now, have done lots of measuring and have never once run into this.

A testament to just how powerful the motor is in those tweeters, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's not common for something like this to happen with most other speakers. We can joke about a new Pogre sticker, but based on some of the replies it might not be a bad idea to at least include a warning in the paperwork or something. Clearly, I'm not the only one who's had this happen.

There's no change in sq or performance, but the screen protecting that tweeter is warped now and it drives me crazy. I was wondering if I use a hair dryer on it if it might tighten back up, but at this point I already feel like I'm doing everything wrong and knowing my luck I'd end up melting the ribbon...

natetg57
08-01-2020, 08:33 AM
Yeah, the hair dryer sounds like a bad idea:eek:

Pogre
08-01-2020, 09:01 AM
Yeah, the hair dryer sounds like a bad idea:eek:

Yeah, not something I'm gonna try to test my hypothesis, lol.

Does anyone know if the plate the screen is attached to comes off without having to remove the whole tweeter? The reason I have so many speakers is because I find them dirt cheap and often in need of new drivers, grilles, cleanup, etc on CL. I make sure I can source oem parts before buying then fix 'em up again for resale.

I'm not really making any money doing it but I'm getting to listen to lots of different speakers from different companies on my own setup in my room. It's more a labor of love because I really enjoy this hobby and love speakers. Problem is, when I get them fixed up I end up wanting to keep them! So now I have a room full of working speakers I don't often listen to, lol. I really need to get some of them listed...

Anyhoo, I'm comfortable taking speakers apart and putting them back together. The RAAL tweeters however, are a whole different animal and right now I'm half afraid if I so much as give them a dirty look I'm going to find out that they're also super sensitive and get their feelings hurt easily...

curtis
08-01-2020, 11:00 AM
I was measuring the height of my speaker when it happened. The tape wasn't even touching the towers and the magnet sucked it right into the screen. In retrospect measuring from the front without the grilles on was not the best decision, obviously. I've owned many speakers. I currently have 9 pairs of speakers in my house now, have done lots of measuring and have never once run into this.

A testament to just how powerful the motor is in those tweeters, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's not common for something like this to happen with most other speakers. We can joke about a new Pogre sticker, but based on some of the replies it might not be a bad idea to at least include a warning in the paperwork or something. Clearly, I'm not the only one who's had this happen.

There's no change in sq or performance, but the screen protecting that tweeter is warped now and it drives me crazy. I was wondering if I use a hair dryer on it if it might tighten back up, but at this point I already feel like I'm doing everything wrong and knowing my luck I'd end up melting the ribbon...
Ahh....got it!

I have seen how "stuck" the protective tweeter cover (they one used for shipping)...so you know how strong that magnet is.

I wouldn't even attempt to straighten the screen if there is no performance issue.

davef
08-03-2020, 06:27 PM
Yeah, not something I'm gonna try to test my hypothesis, lol.

Please do not attempt to use a hair dryer on the tweeter. This will certainly damage the diaphragm while having no effect on the protective screen.


Does anyone know if the plate the screen is attached to comes off without having to remove the whole tweeter?

That screen can be repositioned but it requires completely removing the faceplate from the tweeter assembly, and that can only be done by fully removing the tweeter from the cabinet.

Removing that faceplate is risky, one slip and you will damage the diaphragm and if you have any metal nearby or drop a screw, it will pull it right into the diaphragm instantly tearing it. Honestly, I recommend you leave it alone - if it bugs to you too much, send the complete tweeter back to us and we can do it for you.

Pogre
08-04-2020, 11:21 AM
Please do not attempt to use a hair dryer on the tweeter. This will certainly damage the diaphragm while having no effect on the protective screen.



That screen can be repositioned but it requires completely removing the faceplate from the tweeter assembly, and that can only be done by fully removing the tweeter from the cabinet.

Removing that faceplate is risky, one slip and you will damage the diaphragm and if you have any metal nearby or drop a screw, it will pull it right into the diaphragm instantly tearing it. Honestly, I recommend you leave it alone - if it bugs to you too much, send the complete tweeter back to us and we can do it for you.

Gotcha. I'm not going to attempt anything. The hair dryer idea was dismissed in my head the second after it popped in there. I'm not confident enough in my skills to do anything too invasive. That includes hair dryers and disassembling the tweeter to get to the backside of the faceplate.

Appreciate the reply Dave, that's why I made the post. I figured you'd jump on me if it's a bad idea. I wouldn't do anything without your blessing and/or very detailed instructions. If it keeps bothering me I'll contact you guys and send it in.

MDinno
08-10-2020, 05:58 AM
Hey guys, just wanted to report. So we replaced the damaged tweeters with the new tweeters that we got from Ascend and all I can say is WOW!! If the 2's sound this good it's scary how the 2EX must sound. Impressed wouldn't describe it. Hats off to Ascend for making one of the finest speakers, if not the finest, in the world. I love how they look to. Definitely keeping the grilles off.

racrawford65
08-10-2020, 06:52 AM
Glad all worked out for you. Perhaps time for another upgrade ;-)

Pogre
08-10-2020, 07:03 AM
Hey guys, just wanted to report. So we replaced the damaged tweeters that we got from Ascend and all I can say is WOW!! If the 2's sound this good it's scary how the 2EX must sound. Impressed wouldn't describe it. Hats off to Ascend for making one of the finest speakers, if not the finest, in the world. I love how they look to. Definitely keeping the grilles off.

I would guess a little more bass extension would be the main difference between the 2s and EX upgrade. I was considering that route also and ended up getting towers. Big room, like it loud sometimes. I need the additional sensitivity and power handling.

Mag_Neato
08-10-2020, 10:02 AM
I would guess a little more bass extension would be the main difference between the 2s and EX upgrade. I was considering that route also and ended up getting towers. Big room, like it loud sometimes. I need the additional sensitivity and power handling.

The bass is, indeed, deeper, but that's not the biggest difference. I had a friend bring his Sierra-2's over to do a comparison as he was trying to decide whether it would be worth it for him to upgrade to the EX's.

The bass was noticeably deeper with better slam, but he was more taken with the improved midrange weight and detail, as well as the better integration and clarity of the RAAL, especially at higher volumes that would cause you to lower the volume with the 2's. Even with them crossed at 80hz to my sealed Rythmik sub you can hear the improvements.

The EX upgrade is not inexpensive going from the standard S2's, but I can't think of a better bang for the buck upgrade.

davef
08-12-2020, 12:42 AM
Hey guys, just wanted to report. So we replaced the damaged tweeters with the new tweeters that we got from Ascend and all I can say is WOW!! If the 2's sound this good it's scary how the 2EX must sound. Impressed wouldn't describe it. Hats off to Ascend for making one of the finest speakers, if not the finest, in the world. I love how they look to. Definitely keeping the grilles off.

Great news and I am happy that you are enjoying the speakers!