PDA

View Full Version : DAC in AVR vs Dedicated DAC



Mag_Neato
10-28-2016, 06:45 AM
Ok Ascend folks, here's my latest quandary.
I currently stream music in these steps:
1) TIDAL App on my iPhone hooked up to;
2) Cambridge Audio ID100 Digital Dock, which sends the digital bitstream of the iPhone
to;
3) Marantz SR6003 AVR, using its DAC to decode the digital stream and send the analog
signal in Pure-Direct to;
4) Rythmik Direct Servo plate amp "IN" RCA, which applies 80Hz bass filtering of the
"OUT" RCA, which feeds;
5) Adcom GFA-5500 2-channel amp, powering;
6) Sierra-2's

It sounds pretty darn nice. So my question is.....Would a highly regarded outboard DAC, in this case the Schiit Bifrost Multibit, make a noticeable & worthwhile upgrade over a receiver's built-in DAC? Has anyone made a similar move or know anyone who has and noticed any benefits?

Thanks!

sludgeogre
10-28-2016, 07:51 AM
I have a Marantz AV7701 and a Schiit Bifrost Multibit. I primarily use the Marantz because I watch a lot of 5.1 stuff and use the Bifrost mostly with headphones, but, when I do want to listen to music in a dedicated 2.1 system, sometimes I'll use the Bifrost instead. It definitely has a bigger soundstage, better imaging, and even better bass definition to my ears. If you do a lot of music critical listening, I would definitely suggest the upgrade.

curtis
10-28-2016, 09:07 AM
My 2 cents:

I've heard a fair number of DACs. While do believe some sound different, it is all a matter of taste. I never thought one really sounded better than another.

I've never heard one change the soundstage or imaging. Those characteristics are how a speaker distributes sound, and a DAC doesn't/can't control that.

sludgeogre
10-28-2016, 09:28 AM
My 2 cents:

I've heard a fair number of DACs. While do believe some sound different, it is all a matter of taste. I never thought one really sounded better than another.

I've never heard one change the soundstage or imaging. Those characteristics are how a speaker distributes sound, and a DAC doesn't/can't control that.

You should really look into Schiit Multibit technology. It is very different from the Delta Sigma DACs that compromises 99% of everything else out there. It's the only DAC that provides a closed form solution to the waveform, not an approximation. It also operates around 14 bits of dynamic range, whereas a DS DAC is somewhere around 4 I believe. It's quite a different experience to my ears.

I agree with you though on DS DACs, there aren't very huge differences between them, just different implementations and filters that can sound a bit different.

As for the imaging and soundstage comment, it's actually a lot more apparent on my LCD-2 headphones fed through my Asgard 2 amp. They don't have that wide of a soundstage normally, but the Bifrost really opens it up. On the Sierra Towers, I feel like the DS DAC in my Marantz is great for surround audio, but in stereo it doesn't feel like the towers are doing everything that I know they can sometimes. The Bifrost Multibit gives it that extra bit of clarity that allows the speakers to sound their fullest, to me. Googling around on reviews and Head-Fi it looks like a lot of people agree that it does have that effect for their systems.

eyecatcher
10-28-2016, 10:39 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes there is room for improvement.. AFAIK you had to be on iOS7 or later for digital audio output and those are only limited to 16bit audio.. While im not familiar with the Cambridge product I believe I came across a statement on their site that the ID10 didn't officially support TIDAL. In addition I doubt the dock is based on asynchronous usb audio technology. I would imagine is is functioning as more of a ADC and then you are converting again. Therefore you might want to try a newer iphone with an older gen apple TV over toslink or newer HDMI via Apple airplay, that should be closer to bitperfect. Or better yet the TIDAL desktop app wired direct. The Marantz has a decent DAC probably a cirrus 4382a, but you you could try an external DAC like the schitt and see if you prefer it. I'm using a Meridian Explorer since I don't have any streaming capabilities in my Anthem 520 to my SRT's and I really like it.

Mag_Neato
10-28-2016, 11:30 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes there is room for improvement.. AFAIK you had to be on iOS7 or later for digital audio output and those are only limited to 16bit audio.. While im not familiar with the Cambridge product I believe I came across a statement on their site that the ID10 didn't officially support TIDAL. In addition I doubt the dock is based on asynchronous usb audio technology. I would imagine is is functioning as more of a ADC and then you are converting again. Therefore you might want to try a newer iphone with an older gen apple TV over toslink or newer HDMI via Apple airplay, that should be closer to bitperfect. Or better yet the TIDAL desktop app wired direct. The Marantz has a decent DAC probably a cirrus 4382a, but you you could try an external DAC like the schitt and see if you prefer it. I'm using a Meridian Explorer since I don't have any streaming capabilities in my Anthem 520 to my SRT's and I really like it.

Not sure of all that, but here is a link to the dock: https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/200546932-Why-do-I-need-the-iD100-What-makes-it-different-from-other-iPod-docks-

Tech specs: https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/200999861-Technical-Specification

The dock bypasses the internal DAC completely so no analog conversion. I was using an iPhone 5s and now a 7 with latest ios. I have the Hi-Fi Tidal subscription. I also have a FLAC Player app on my iPod Touch with a few dozen lossless files from HDTracks I play through the system. I don't have a readout on the Marantz telling me what bitrate is being sent. It sounds better to me than playing CD's through my dedicated CD player.

sludgeogre
10-28-2016, 11:53 AM
Not sure of all that, but here is a link to the dock: https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/200546932-Why-do-I-need-the-iD100-What-makes-it-different-from-other-iPod-docks-

Tech specs: https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/200999861-Technical-Specification

The dock bypasses the internal DAC completely so no analog conversion. I was using an iPhone 5s and now a 7 with latest ios. I have the Hi-Fi Tidal subscription. I also have a FLAC Player app on my iPod Touch with a few dozen lossless files from HDTracks I play through the system. I don't have a readout on the Marantz telling me what bitrate is being sent. It sounds better to me than playing CD's through my dedicated CD player.

Since you are using the dock as a transport (it's optical audio output) you're totally fine to use the phone in the way you're doing it.

eyecatcher
10-28-2016, 12:24 PM
If your looking to connect the streaming apps from the iOS on an iphone or itouch with an external DAC to your system to upgrade from the dock and marantz dac, then maybe you would want to consider the Oppo HA-2SE, Dragonfly or something like that. There are so many different ones out there to evaluate, but I'm just not sure what magic could be inside the cambridge since it's a secret. I'm also not sure if the Bifrost can support an iphone7 as the OP is asking but most likely it be best to connect via lightning to USB rather than 3.5mm..

sludgeogre
10-28-2016, 12:32 PM
If your looking to connect the streaming apps from the iOS on an iphone or itouch with an external DAC to your system to upgrade from the dock and marantz dac, then maybe you would want to consider the Oppo HA-2SE, Dragonfly or something like that. There are so many different ones out there to evaluate, but I'm just not sure what magic could be inside the cambridge since it's a secret. I'm also not sure if the Bifrost can support an iphone7 as the OP is asking but most likely it be best to connect via lightning to USB rather than 3.5mm..

The Bifrost has an optical input and that's what the OP is using, optical output from the dock. I wouldn't connect it via USB. It works fine on Android devices through OTG, but iPhones can be wonky.

Mag_Neato
10-28-2016, 05:17 PM
The Bifrost has an optical input and that's what the OP is using, optical output from the dock. I wouldn't connect it via USB. It works fine on Android devices through OTG, but iPhones can be wonky.
Yes, optical connection. Good guess. I could use coax as well but prefer optical. The dock does not have a dac of its own, it simply extracts the digital bitstream from the iPhone and passes it on to the receiver.

eyecatcher
10-29-2016, 01:42 PM
Shouldn't be much difference in optical vs coax. I like optical too. It would work. The dock must support the apple USB core audio. Since it is either that or analog audio on the 30pin connector. But it's unknown what bit/sample rate it outputting. I suspect the stream would go down to 48khz or 96 for compatibility from the original source. Imho I would recommend eliminating it from the chain since it could lose some resolution and introduce jitter before the dac.

sludgeogre
10-29-2016, 02:27 PM
Shouldn't be much difference in optical vs coax. I like optical too. It would work. The dock must support the apple USB core audio. Since it is either that or analog audio on the 30pin connector. But it's unknown what bit/sample rate it outputting. I suspect the stream would go down to 48khz or 96 for compatibility from the original source. Imho I would recommend eliminating it from the chain since it could lose some resolution and introduce jitter before the dac.

I don't think there is any audible difference between coax and optical unless you're talking about long cable lengths, where optical will perform better.

If the dock is able to extract the full bit stream from the phone it should output whatever sample rate your file is. If it's downsampling it would have to be doing a lot more processing, and I'm pretty sure the dock isn't doing that. Previous Apple computers have been limited at 24/96 output and the phones may be the same, but that should have no effect on the dock transferring anything that the phone can.

But yes, iPhone and Apple audio stuff can be wonky and I prefer to just use my PC with Foobar or my iBasso DX80 as a transport.

Mag_Neato
10-30-2016, 08:59 AM
Ok, having established that the dock is merely extracting the full potential of the Apple device, back to the original question: Will adding a dedicated DAC bring any sonic improvements?

sludgeogre
10-30-2016, 09:23 AM
Ok, having established that the dock is merely extracting the full potential of the Apple device, back to the original question: Will adding a dedicated DAC bring any sonic improvements?

Schiit Multibit DACs will absolutely sound better than what you are using now.

Mag_Neato
10-31-2016, 05:43 AM
Schiit Multibit DACs will absolutely sound better than what you are using now.

Ok, can you elaborate further as to the improvements you experienced personally? Did you do any sort of A/B comparison? Acoustic memory is extremely short and I have found that unless you can switch instantaneously while the music is playing it can be very difficult to hear differences. Now, if you are a critical listener and know the material being played intimately then it could be possible to notice differences in playback.

sludgeogre
10-31-2016, 07:12 AM
Ok, can you elaborate further as to the improvements you experienced personally? Did you do any sort of A/B comparison? Acoustic memory is extremely short and I have found that unless you can switch instantaneously while the music is playing it can be very difficult to hear differences. Now, if you are a critical listener and know the material being played intimately then it could be possible to notice differences in playback.

Refer to my first reply in the thread. Bigger soundstage, better detail, better dynamics. Big sense of openness and natural, live quality to it that normal Delta-Sigma DACs lack.

If you want a ton more impressions and info, look here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/782824/schiit-fire-and-save-matches-bifrost-multibit-is-here

eyecatcher
10-31-2016, 08:02 AM
Ok, having established that the dock is merely extracting the full potential of the Apple device, back to the original question: Will adding a dedicated DAC bring any sonic improvements?

IMHO the weak link may still be the iphone and dock. However, TIDAL's highest quality Flac is 1411 kbps - Lossless (16/44.1 khz). Dynamic range at that rate is about 96db and it shouldn't be compromised when passing through it. If you have better music on the iphone like DSD or files with bitrates were higher say 24/192khz you could be losing with the combination. However I'd advise you to try out the schitt using their 15-Day Satisfaction Guarantee and let us know since your ears would be the only ones to tell us..

Mag_Neato
10-31-2016, 11:26 AM
IMHO the weak link may still be the iphone and dock. However, TIDAL's highest quality Flac is 1411 kbps - Lossless (16/44.1 khz). Dynamic range at that rate is about 96db and it shouldn't be compromised when passing through it. If you have better music on the iphone like DSD or files with bitrates were higher say 24/192khz you could be losing with the combination. However I'd advise you to try out the schitt using their 15-Day Satisfaction Guarantee and let us know since your ears would be the only ones to tell us..

Well, I may have to try that one of these days. $600 is not insignificant, especially towards the end of the year. Birthdays & Christmas are biggies.

Jaybeez
11-05-2016, 10:21 PM
Ok, can you elaborate further as to the improvements you experienced personally? Did you do any sort of A/B comparison? Acoustic memory is extremely short and I have found that unless you can switch instantaneously while the music is playing it can be very difficult to hear differences. Now, if you are a critical listener and know the material being played intimately then it could be possible to notice differences in playback.

I have a Bifrost with Multibit upgrade, and did A/B vs. the onboard DAC from my Yamaha integrated. I used the exact same files, and could clearly hear a difference. The Bifrost just had / has more detail to my ears.

I've since upgraded the Yamaha to higher end integrated (Plinius) which does not have an onboard DAC, so the Shiit has become a "must have" in my signal chain.

Mag_Neato
11-06-2016, 07:52 PM
I have a Bifrost with Multibit upgrade, and did A/B vs. the onboard DAC from my Yamaha integrated. I used the exact same files, and could clearly hear a difference. The Bifrost just had / has more detail to my ears.

I've since upgraded the Yamaha to higher end integrated (Plinius) which does not have an onboard DAC, so the Shiit has become a "must have" in my signal chain.
Thanks for adding your comments. I am really curious as to how it would compare to the Marantz DAC. I guess I will have to eventually give it a try.

Mag_Neato
11-07-2016, 05:26 AM
.....I've since upgraded the Yamaha to higher end integrated (Plinius) which does not have an onboard DAC, so the Shiit has become a "must have" in my signal chain.
Which Plinius model? Was checking those out since you mentioned them.