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qwknuf6
08-01-2016, 06:30 PM
Would a F25 Rythmik sub (sealed dual 15" ) blend with Sierra 2 and a horizon center in a small room , I have a 12 sealed Rythmik in there now and the subwoofer bottoms out on movies , I have it turned down so it won't bottom out , but I wish i had more headroom.

Mark

curtis
08-01-2016, 10:44 PM
It bottoms out? How loud do you play it in the small room? Is it calibrated hot? Do you have the bottom end eq'd high?

qwknuf6
08-01-2016, 11:57 PM
Not calibrated hot , but some movies make the sub bottom out , I had the volume knob @ 1:00 , turned it back to 12:00 but I feel like for movies it will not keep up , it's great for music

RythmikAudio
08-02-2016, 06:34 AM
Do you have the rumble filter turn on? For movies, the recommended setting is 14hz or 20hz, low damping and rumble filter ON. This will conserve the energy on more audible frequency band.

These days, there are too many movies with overloaded subsonic signals that makes cone move like crazy and yet we hear nothing. One of the common one is the opening scene of edge of tomorrow.

qwknuf6
08-02-2016, 07:22 AM
Do you have the rumble filter turn on? For movies, the recommended setting is 14hz or 20hz, low damping and rumble filter ON. This will conserve the energy on more audible frequency band.

These days, there are too many movies with overloaded subsonic signals that makes cone move like crazy and yet we hear nothing. One of the common one is the opening scene of edge of tomorrow.
Yes I have the rumble filter on , I have tried all different settings , I even sent it to Jim Salk to see if there was something wrong with the sub but he explained it was just reaching the max movement of the driver , Jim adjusted all the settings for me , I have tried different rooms and equipment , checked the setting in the AVR , movies just tend to max out the 12" subwoofer , I have 15" rythmik and I have never noticed it reaching max travel .
So would the F25 blend with the Sierra 2s and horizon Center ?.I would crossover @ 80HZ.
Mark

sludgeogre
08-02-2016, 02:38 PM
I have dual F12's and I can't ever see needing more bass even in a very big room like I'm in now. I have them set at 12 o'clock and -9 dB in Audyssey, so they have a lot more room to go. When I turn them up they make the whole house shake during reference level movies. I mean it's intense, it scares the daylights out of people and you can feel your chest moving. I sorta find it difficult to believe that there is such lacking bass with one sub. You may want to buy another one and see if you can even out the room modes that way. It would make more sense that you are just experiencing lackluster subwoofer placement due to room compromises. A second 12" sub would be much cheaper and would be more likely to solve any room mode issues you might be experiencing.

A sub crawl, when in doubt, is always recommended as well. I've read some crazy stories of people getting massive improvements in subwoofer performance after a sub crawl. This assumes that you are able to place the sub in the spot where you find the best sound. Usually that isn't the case, and that's where a second sub can really help out, again if you have space.

qwknuf6
08-02-2016, 04:17 PM
I don't really have a lack of bass , but during movies when the subwoofer hits hard it reaches max ext and sounds like pop bottles rolling around inside the subwoofer ,

sludgeogre
08-03-2016, 08:57 AM
I don't really have a lack of bass , but during movies when the subwoofer hits hard it reaches max ext and sounds like pop bottles rolling around inside the subwoofer ,

That is really weird, I have never had that happen to me. If you have two subwoofers, though, I would imagine that you would then be able to turn down the level on both of them and the chance of bottoming out would be far less, right?

curtis
08-03-2016, 09:13 AM
Are you sure the bottom octave isn't being boosted by any eq'ing?

qwknuf6
08-03-2016, 09:19 AM
That's what I think , I don't have room for 2 subs but I could get a dual driver sub like the F25 , that would fit perfect in my room .

qwknuf6
08-03-2016, 09:32 AM
Are you sure the bottom octave isn't being boosted by any eq'ing?

I don't think so but I will rechk the AVR settings. I am having Jeff Meier from ACCUCAL come by later this year for a audio video calibration so he can correct any thing I may have missed ,

curtis
08-03-2016, 09:39 AM
I don't think so but I will rechk the AVR settings. I am having Jeff Meier from ACCUCAL come by later this year for a audio video calibration so he can correct any thing I may have missed ,
Not just the AVR, but also the PEQ on the sub itself.

qwknuf6
08-03-2016, 09:54 AM
I am sure on the PEQ on the subwoofer

sludgeogre
08-03-2016, 10:55 AM
Another thing you might try is turning the volume on the sub amp up and turning the LFE channel down a few dB in Audyssey. Perhaps your amp is running out of juice due to a line level signal that is boosted too far for the amp setting?

I might be totally wrong about how this works, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

N Boros
08-04-2016, 05:44 AM
Another thing you might try is turning the volume on the sub amp up and turning the LFE channel down a few dB in Audyssey. Perhaps your amp is running out of juice due to a line level signal that is boosted too far for the amp setting?

I might be totally wrong about how this works, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think that this will do anything with the problem, unless the LFE gain the reciever was maxed out and it was passing noise to the subwoofer. However, it could cause a problem. If the level coming out of the reciever is low enough, then the auto-on from the subwoofer may not be activated. I ran into this problem about 10 years ago with my Outlaw subwoofer. When I was listening at lower volumes late at night I was confused why my subwoofer would not come on most of the time except when there was a high level of bass, whereas when watching movies at other times it was fine. The fix was to increase the gain in the reciever and decrease the gain at the subwoofer.

sludgeogre
08-04-2016, 09:06 AM
I don't think that this will do anything with the problem, unless the LFE gain the reciever was maxed out and it was passing noise to the subwoofer. However, it could cause a problem. If the level coming out of the reciever is low enough, then the auto-on from the subwoofer may not be activated. I ran into this problem about 10 years ago with my Outlaw subwoofer. When I was listening at lower volumes late at night I was confused why my subwoofer would not come on most of the time except when there was a high level of bass, whereas when watching movies at other times it was fine. The fix was to increase the gain in the reciever and decrease the gain at the subwoofer.

You are probably right, I just thought it might be worth a shot to try it. Receivers can do some funny things that you don't expect once in a while. I found that I've had to turn my subwoofers down pretty far or else Audyssey will set everything to -10 dB and it will sound way off as it was overcompensating for the bass. Once I turned the subs down a little more and re-ran Audyssey, it gave me much more realistic levels and I was able to play around with the bass a little more.

I had that auto on problem with a little Martin Logan HTIB subwoofer that was my first foray into home theater. Replacing that dinky thing with two Rythmik F12's was like going from a Volkswagon Bug to a Ferrari.

theriddler07sms
08-10-2016, 05:53 PM
I have an F12 and it was starting to clip on some movies. I was running it hot and messed with as many settings as I could. Its just too small of a sub for my tastes, especially for 90% movies. Switching to a ported sub now.

Johnny_Mac_III
08-16-2016, 12:30 PM
Would a F25 Rythmik sub (sealed dual 15" ) blend with Sierra 2 and a horizon center in a small room , I have a 12 sealed Rythmik in there now and the subwoofer bottoms out on movies , I have it turned down so it won't bottom out , but I wish i had more headroom.

Mark

What is the size of the entire area that is open to the sub?

qwknuf6
08-16-2016, 12:44 PM
Room is sealed , 11X11X9 FEET

Johnny_Mac_III
08-16-2016, 01:27 PM
Hmmm....the F12 shouldn't even be breaking a sweat with that room size at reference level. Call Rythmik.

N Boros
08-16-2016, 01:41 PM
At first I thought that this sounded crazy, that you are having this problem in a small sealed room, like you have. But, if you listen at 75 dB, for example, then the soundtrack can call for up to 105 dB peaks from the subwoofer on a movie soundtrack. The most detailed measurements of what the F12 should be close to in terms of measurements are here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5756-diy-rythmik-audio-direct-servo-12-sealed-56l.html. Many modern soundmixes for action movies contain a significant amount of content below 40 Hz. You should get a lot of room gain in this room to extend some of the curves in the long term output compression extend flatter to maybe even below 20 Hz, in your room, or maybe even be slightly elevated as you go down into these lower frequencies. But, it is probably not likely on the 105 dB sweep when you get down into the low 20 Hz range. So if you have peaks that are surpassing 105 dB it seems reasonable that you might bottom out the driver. The problem is even worse if you are usually listening at 85 dB (reference volume). How loud do you listen to your movies typically?

If you are not listening soundtracks at anywhere near 75 dB, 80dB, 85 dB and up (on your receiver volume dial), then I think that Johnny Mac is right and you should call Rythmik. If you do listen that loud, then you likely need a larger sub. Just don't surpass 85 dB as a usual volume level, since you are then bordering on possible hearing damage.

curtis
08-16-2016, 02:07 PM
It's a square room, so he has lots of cancellations.

qwknuf6
08-16-2016, 02:17 PM
Hmmm....the F12 shouldn't even be breaking a sweat with that room size at reference level. Call Rythmik.
I have sent the subwoofer back to Jim Salk , he tested it and gave it a clean bill of health , even adjusted the setting for me , I only have trouble with movies , not music , the driver or cone bottoms out or clips on sudden explosions and such , I play loud but not over the top , below reference I would say

qwknuf6
08-16-2016, 02:19 PM
At first I thought that this sounded crazy, that you are having this problem in a small sealed room, like you have. But, if you listen at 75 dB, for example, then the soundtrack can call for up to 105 dB peaks from the subwoofer on a movie soundtrack. The most detailed measurements of what the F12 should be close to in terms of measurements are here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5756-diy-rythmik-audio-direct-servo-12-sealed-56l.html. Many modern soundmixes for action movies contain a significant amount of content below 40 Hz. You should get a lot of room gain in this room to extend some of the curves in the long term output compression extend flatter to maybe even below 20 Hz, in your room, or maybe even be slightly elevated as you go down into these lower frequencies. But, it is probably not likely on the 105 dB sweep when you get down into the low 20 Hz range. So if you have peaks that are surpassing 105 dB it seems reasonable that you might bottom out the driver. The problem is even worse if you are usually listening at 85 dB (reference volume). How loud do you listen to your movies typically?

If you are not listening soundtracks at anywhere near 75 dB, 80dB, 85 dB and up (on your receiver volume dial), then I think that Johnny Mac is right and you should call Rythmik. If you do listen that loud, then you likely need a larger sub. Just don't surpass 85 dB as a usual volume level, since you are then bordering on possible hearing damage.

I think the 12" sub does not have the headroom I need for movies , everything else about the sub is fantastic , Will I loose sound quality going to a larger sealed sub ?

Johnny_Mac_III
08-16-2016, 05:35 PM
Like Curtis said, the room has alot of cancelations. This could be contribute to the sub sounding like it doesn't have enough headroom due to the dips in the frequency response. IMO getting a more powerful sub won't solve this. Adding another sub would be more benificial. The first step in this process would be to buy a mic from Cross Spectrum and use REW to better diagnose the issues. Or just download REW and use the room sim feature and see what adding another sub and/or moving the seating position would do. Room sim has been pretty accurate for me.

curtis
08-16-2016, 06:23 PM
Like Curtis said, the room has alot of cancelations. This could be contribute to the sub sounding like it doesn't have enough headroom due to the dips in the frequency response. IMO getting a more powerful sub won't solve this. Adding another sub would be more benificial. The first step in this process would be to buy a mic from Cross Spectrum and use REW to better diagnose the issues. Or just download REW and use the room sim feature and see what adding another sub and/or moving the seating position would do. Room sim has been pretty accurate for me.
This!

Sorry I did not respond more...I was at work and responding on my phone, which is a pain to do.

Take some measurements and see what is going on. 11 x 11 x 9 is a small room...I don't think you should be bottoming out the sub.

N Boros
08-17-2016, 11:57 AM
I think the 12" sub does not have the headroom I need for movies , everything else about the sub is fantastic , Will I loose sound quality going to a larger sealed sub ?

I want to answer some of your questions that haven't been asked, but first we need to make sure you are not buying a subwoofer you don't need. The F25 will blend just as well with your speakers as the F12 did. Your not going to lose any sound quality going with it over the F25 over the F12. But it may be that the Sierra 2s don't have the output capabilities of the F25. This is something I would talk with both Dave and Brian about.

We know your room size. We need to know more to be able to tell you what is going on. What volume level do you typically have your receiver set at when you run into bottoming out the subwoofer? If you have an spl meter, what are the dBs when you bottom out the driver?