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JRG
01-13-2015, 04:21 PM
Hi guys. Fairly new to the Ascend product as I have just received a pair of Sierra1 Nrt's and Sierra 2's to audition. I'm "new" to the audio world although I've been listening to and playing music all my life.

I'm planning to pair a sub with the pair of Sierra's that I end up keeping...so I'm doing a little research. I'm definitely going with a Rythmik sealed sub. For the foreseeable future I plan to run a 2.1 set-up. Maybe upgrade to 5.1 in the future....maybe. I don't need or want drywall-cracking power. I just want to sufficiently add the low frequencies to my music. My room is fairly good size, about 18x26x8.

I saw that Rythmik has a dual 8" sub that has the ability to crossover up to 250hz. Is there any advantage to crossing that high with a speaker like the Sierra? My limited audio knowledge tells me that it would allow the Sierra to better reproduce the >250hz frequencies, taking some "burden" from them. Please tell me if this is completely wrong!

Jason

natetg57
01-14-2015, 07:16 AM
I think most of the time people use a 60 or 80hz crossover with the Sierra's. That relieves much of the strain of the lower frequencies while the Sierra's still play the frequencies that are directional. I would think for your larger room an F12 or F15 would be suitable. A second identical one could be added in the future if needed.

davef
01-14-2015, 02:20 PM
I think most of the time people use a 60 or 80hz crossover with the Sierra's. That relieves much of the strain of the lower frequencies while the Sierra's still play the frequencies that are directional. I would think for your larger room an F12 or F15 would be suitable. A second identical one could be added in the future if needed.

The idea of running the subwoofer into the 200Hz range is only recommended when you are using small satellite speakers. With Sierra-1, you should be using a crossover point between 60-80Hz. The Sierra-1 speakers will do a much better job of reproducing the directional frequencies than any subwoofer (80Hz on up). You would only use such a high crossover point when the speakers are not capable of accurately reproducing these frequencies...

bkdc
01-15-2015, 09:45 AM
I'm really not sure why Rythmik decided to build those F8 subs unless there are enough people with tiny **** acoustimass-type satellites that require sub extension that high. I was thinking it might be nice to have a smaller footprint, but the F8 doesn't save much space compared to the F12.

curtis
01-15-2015, 10:17 AM
I'm really not sure why Rythmik decided to build those F8 subs unless there are enough people with tiny **** acoustimass-type satellites that require sub extension that high. I was thinking it might be nice to have a smaller footprint, but the F8 doesn't save much space compared to the F12.
I was wondering the same thing...and if that was the case, why not a single 8"? In no way could a little satellite speaker keep in output with a dual 8".

AR2ax man
01-15-2015, 10:17 AM
Back from my car audio days, me and my buddies would always run 2 X8 in a sub enclosure. People were always shocked how clean, hard and deep they would hit. I can definitely see were this could come into play especially for music in the home as well, were you want that type of bass. From the F8 specs they go pretty low as well. Would be quite interesting to hear them in person. In my dream home theater setup, if I had unlimited funds, I could see putting one of these on each channel, and then a bigger Rythmic dedicated for LFE, drool!!!!!

JRG
01-15-2015, 07:19 PM
I appreciate the info guys! I'm heading the F12 route BTW.

davef
01-16-2015, 01:49 AM
I'm really not sure why Rythmik decided to build those F8 subs unless there are enough people with tiny **** acoustimass-type satellites that require sub extension that high. I was thinking it might be nice to have a smaller footprint, but the F8 doesn't save much space compared to the F12.


I was wondering the same thing...and if that was the case, why not a single 8"? In no way could a little satellite speaker keep in output with a dual 8".

Guys,

I gotta tell you, I have been playing around with dual F8's for a few days now and let me share with you - I am thoroughly impressed. I will do a more formal write up as my time frees up but do not pass judgment on these subs just because they have (2) 8's... These are truly something special...

ematthews
01-16-2015, 09:37 PM
Guys,

I gotta tell you, I have been playing around with dual F8's for a few days now and let me share with you - I am thoroughly impressed. I will do a more formal write up as my time frees up but do not pass judgment on these subs just because they have (2) 8's... These are truly something special...

Dave. Can I run the dual 8 with my RAAL towers? I still have not picked up a sub yet and need one.

davef
01-21-2015, 01:32 AM
Dave. Can I run the dual 8 with my RAAL towers? I still have not picked up a sub yet and need one.

Yes, absolutely. This is exactly what I have been running for the past week now and I am extremely happy with this combination. Give us a call if you would like to order the F8's as we have not yet listed them on our site.

Mag_Neato
01-21-2015, 09:03 AM
Yes, absolutely. This is exactly what I have been running for the past week now and I am extremely happy with this combination. Give us a call if you would like to order the F8's as we have not yet listed them on our site.

Dave, please help me understand something here.....
What would be benefit of the F8 over a single 12" Rythmik? Just curious and I'm sure others will probably want to know.

JRG
01-21-2015, 04:15 PM
Dave, please help me understand something here.....
What would be benefit of the F8 over a single 12" Rythmik? Just curious and I'm sure others will probably want to know.

I was going to ask the same thing!

davef
01-21-2015, 04:17 PM
Yes, absolutely. This is exactly what I have been running for the past week now and I am extremely happy with this combination. Give us a call if you would like to order the F8's as we have not yet listed them on our site.

The smaller and lighter mass woofers generally mean better transient accuracy. The more noticeable advantage is the ability to easily place (2) of them in a room. The F8's have a very small footprint.

shadowlight
01-25-2015, 03:37 PM
Dave,

Cost associated with the 8" along with any other information? Need some dual duty subs.

Thx

Edit: found the information on Rythmik's website.

natetg57
01-25-2015, 07:37 PM
Here's the link http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html

RicardoJoa
02-22-2015, 11:16 AM
I'm guessing the ability to cross higher means that the bookshelves are relieved from the upper bass as well. But to cross high, the subs needs to be closed to the fronts speakers to reduce localization.
It seems like what salk has already use in one of their designs and I think this would pair nicely with the sierra 2. If the integration is properly done, crossing higher in the upper bass, might give a better slam since the upper bass are player thru the dual 8.

white_darren
03-07-2015, 07:07 PM
The smaller and lighter mass woofers generally mean better transient accuracy. The more noticeable advantage is the ability to easily place (2) of them in a room. The F8's have a very small footprint.

Dave, still looking forward to that more detailed feedback on the F8.

A pair of subs are the next addition to my system (Sierra 1 LCR - I'll eventually add Sierra Towers to the mix for a 5.2 setup). I'm probably 70% music, 30% movies and don't care quite as much about sub-sonic frequencies as some folks here. I definitely like the form factor of the F8 better but wonder what I'd be giving up relative to the F12.

RicardoJoa
03-15-2015, 04:20 PM
you would be giving up the deep frequencies over the F12. The dual 8 rythmik might just have better upper bass than the sierra 1 or at least have better power handling over the smaller woofer. If you happened to cross your sierra 1 over 100hz, they are likely be better to position as close to the mains. You definitely needs some good bass management.

davef
03-18-2015, 01:43 AM
you would be giving up the deep frequencies over the F12. The dual 8 rythmik might just have better upper bass than the sierra 1 or at least have better power handling over the smaller woofer. If you happened to cross your sierra 1 over 100hz, they are likely be better to position as close to the mains. You definitely needs some good bass management.

F12 extends only slightly deeper than the F8. I'm not even sure that this small difference would be audible. However, the F12 will have slightly more output at the lowest frequencies.

RicardoJoa
03-19-2015, 01:54 PM
F12 extends only slightly deeper than the F8. I'm not even sure that this small difference would be audible. However, the F12 will have slightly more output at the lowest frequencies.

Right Dave,
i indeed meant that since is obvious on the website.
Im sure the F8 is a great sub if some one wants to to cross over 100hz.

davef
03-19-2015, 07:13 PM
Right Dave,
i indeed meant that since is obvious on the website.
Im sure the F8 is a great sub if some one wants to to cross over 100hz.

I'm using dual F8's, crossed at 60 with a pair of towers and thoroughly impressed. (keep in mind I have the option of using any Rythmik sub ;) )

I can't put my finger on it -- perhaps it is the transient accuracy of the lighter mass cones, greater dispersion of smaller cones, or an improved upper bass response - but I have been partial to dual 8 designs since I worked on the M&K MX-70, MX-700 and a dual driver version of the VX-7 (which I had hoped would make it to market). All of these subs were sealed dual 8's...

Blutarsky
04-29-2015, 05:55 PM
I had a pair of Genesis speakers with dual 8 woofers and am now using a sub with three 8 inch drivers.
All of these put out plenty of clean bass, and a great musicality. I am eyeing the F8's myself. My next step might be dual subs. I am mostly music with an occasional Blue-Ray movie.
I am awaiting my LCR Sierra-2's. Downsizing from Towers with a Mini Horizon.

rsmt2000
05-29-2015, 05:16 AM
Hi Dave

Not sure if you already answered it but can you suggest the BEST music sub for RAAL towers. Do you recommend one F12 , one F8 or dual F8s and why? ;-)

ematthews
05-29-2015, 05:32 AM
I would like to know this too..

curtis
05-29-2015, 09:01 AM
Hi Dave

Not sure if you already answered it but can you suggest the BEST music sub for RAAL towers. Do you recommend one F12 , one F8 or dual F8s and why? ;-)


I would like to know this too..
In post #21, he implies the F8.

yendor
06-04-2015, 12:46 AM
I've been sub shopping for a couple weeks now...and now I've become intrigued by the F8. However, I'm a little puzzled that its amplifier is 62% more powerful than the F12 (600w vs. 370w), yet the F8's output is 1.5db less than the F12 (http://rythmikaudio.com/products1.html). Are all these figures correct? And if so, why?

RythmikAudio
06-04-2015, 06:02 AM
These figures are correct. That is also the reason you don't see a lot of subwoofers built with multiple smaller diameter drivers. The design goal of F8 is to achieve higher extensioin, meaning the voice coil inductance has to be low and so is the cone assembly weight (which is roughly cone weight plus voice coil weight). All of these prevent us from using a high number of winding to achieve high BL force factor value.

eliwankenobi
06-20-2015, 12:00 PM
So what spl can we expect from this sub at 20hz vs the f12? Above 90db? 110db?

I never understood the freq/spl graph on product pages

curtis
06-20-2015, 12:36 PM
So what spl can we expect from this sub at 20hz vs the f12? Above 90db? 110db?

I never understood the freq/spl graph on product pages
The FR graphs on the product page are much like the FR graphs on Ascends' speaker pages. They don't show max SPL, they show linearity.

eliwankenobi
06-20-2015, 03:41 PM
The FR graphs on the product page are much like the FR graphs on Ascends' speaker pages. They don't show max SPL, they show linearity.

Thanks. Thats actually part of the confusion.

I remember asking on a forum about a sub that was less than $300, supposedly reached 20hz... Then the response was "yeah but at what spl?."

I said: good point.

Hence my question here.. I am not doubting it is a good sub. I more than understand that extension alone is not a the most important element when choosing a sub. I am particularly intrigued by the comments on its transient response... But would like the confirmation.. At this price point, it is good competition against Rythmik's own F12 and SVS SB-2000 as far as sealed subs go. The sb-2000 shows its capable of ~ 96db spl at 20hz. Also, Ascend speakers also show spl level of 85 db for freq response graph on Sierra-2, -1 and 90db for the towers.. I believe this is absolute spl levels in a semi anechoic environment.... But Rythmik graphs show this +20 , +5 and -20 db on the spl scale and I don't understand what would be the 0db reference volume...

Can this be clarified?

RythmikAudio
06-23-2015, 10:27 AM
For passive speaker, the frequency reponse looks the same as the max SPL response because the amplifer has no EQ and we just scale them up (add 20db for 100WRMS). But all subs have EQ to get the bass extension on the FR plot. Exactly where the max SPL is going to be on each frequency is something you don't find unless you go to sites like data-bass.com. I rememeber several years ago, a customer ask one compnay of the T/S parameters of their drivers in their sub. The support guy replied they are proprietary as if the T/S parameters garner secretes lead to their better output. Everyone nowadays has access to subwoofer simulators. A few thing affects the max SPL customers should keep in mind: 1) enclosure size, 2) power amp output rating (as long as manufacturers dont inflate it), and 3) compliance of driver (some drivers have very stiff rubber surround and those takes more power to move). So our F12 output will be similar SB-2000 if not better. So 1db here and there should not be the deal breaker. Customers bought into our subs don't nick and dime max SPL output. That is not our selling point. Our selling point is we get comparable output as our competitors and yet we offer audibly better sound quality.

Now for transient response. Transient response is measured by time domain impulse response. The more filtering you incorporate, the more so-called group delay the subwoofer will get (and more ringing in the transient response). SVS has incorporate high order filtering to that it is less trouble for the manufacturers. We do understand the importance of low group delay and we make the rumble filter an defeatable opton. In addition, we publish the phase response of our subs. It has 90 degrees phase shift at around 20hz. No other subwoofer comes this low. The result is a fast transient response. Subwoofers with excessive group delay and filtering will sound "boomy" or less natural. If we compare the reproduced sound with the sound that we hear every day, one big difference is our real-world sound does not have filtering and therefore no bandwidth limitation. Subwoofers on the other hand does have bass extensin limitation and once it is limited to 20hz, it is not going to get better even if we use 100 of those. So our goal is produce a sub with least amount of phase shift and as flat as possible. If one sub is not enough, two will work better :-)

So our plot is to show customers both the amplitude and phase response of a particular model. In practice, I will challenge any company publish max SPL curve with the question if that is measured in snow or in desert? or is it measured in cold start or after 2 hours of pub like playing? This is becasue voice coil temperature is a big factor.

Puckhead
06-24-2015, 08:11 PM
Guys,

I gotta tell you, I have been playing around with dual F8's for a few days now and let me share with you - I am thoroughly impressed. I will do a more formal write up as my time frees up but do not pass judgment on these subs just because they have (2) 8's... These are truly something special...

These F8s look very interesting.

Do you have any further impressions/thoughts on dual F8s? How about vs. a pair of F12s?

If my speakers are capable of 50hz-60hz and higher, used mainly for music (2-channel and multichannel) are the F8s a better choice or is the F12 still the smart choice? How do the F8s perform with the odd movie?

davef
06-25-2015, 03:32 PM
These F8s look very interesting.

Do you have any further impressions/thoughts on dual F8s? How about vs. a pair of F12s?

If my speakers are capable of 50hz-60hz and higher, used mainly for music (2-channel and multichannel) are the F8s a better choice or is the F12 still the smart choice? How do the F8s perform with the odd movie?

Loving my F8's :) My recommendation would be dual F8's over a single F12, but if budget allows -- dual F12's would likely be the smarter choice.

eliwankenobi
06-29-2015, 06:25 AM
For passive speaker, the frequency reponse looks the same as the max SPL response because the amplifer has no EQ and we just scale them up (add 20db for 100WRMS). But all subs have EQ to get the bass extension on the FR plot. Exactly where the max SPL is going to be on each frequency is something you don't find unless you go to sites like data-bass.com. I rememeber several years ago, a customer ask one compnay of the T/S parameters of their drivers in their sub. The support guy replied they are proprietary as if the T/S parameters garner secretes lead to their better output. Everyone nowadays has access to subwoofer simulators. A few thing affects the max SPL customers should keep in mind: 1) enclosure size, 2) power amp output rating (as long as manufacturers dont inflate it), and 3) compliance of driver (some drivers have very stiff rubber surround and those takes more power to move). So our F12 output will be similar SB-2000 if not better. So 1db here and there should not be the deal breaker. Customers bought into our subs don't nick and dime max SPL output. That is not our selling point. Our selling point is we get comparable output as our competitors and yet we offer audibly better sound quality.

Now for transient response. Transient response is measured by time domain impulse response. The more filtering you incorporate, the more so-called group delay the subwoofer will get (and more ringing in the transient response). SVS has incorporate high order filtering to that it is less trouble for the manufacturers. We do understand the importance of low group delay and we make the rumble filter an defeatable opton. In addition, we publish the phase response of our subs. It has 90 degrees phase shift at around 20hz. No other subwoofer comes this low. The result is a fast transient response. Subwoofers with excessive group delay and filtering will sound "boomy" or less natural. If we compare the reproduced sound with the sound that we hear every day, one big difference is our real-world sound does not have filtering and therefore no bandwidth limitation. Subwoofers on the other hand does have bass extensin limitation and once it is limited to 20hz, it is not going to get better even if we use 100 of those. So our goal is produce a sub with least amount of phase shift and as flat as possible. If one sub is not enough, two will work better :-)

So our plot is to show customers both the amplitude and phase response of a particular model. In practice, I will challenge any company publish max SPL curve with the question if that is measured in snow or in desert? or is it measured in cold start or after 2 hours of pub like playing? This is becasue voice coil temperature is a big factor.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!

This is the kind of answer I was hoping to hear and then some!

Thanks again... Darn, and I was considering an SB-2000...

shinny
06-29-2015, 05:27 PM
Dave,
How about dual F8's over a single F15 in a large room with towers? I can't sell two F15's at my house.

Steve

davef
06-29-2015, 06:38 PM
Dave,
How about dual F8's over a single F15 in a large room with towers? I can't sell two F15's at my house.

Steve

Exactly what I am doing in my living room and I was lucky enough to be able to compare the dual F8's against a single F15 (and also a single F12). In our room (which is quite large) - the dual F8's perform better. Keep in mind that overall sound quality and transient accuracy is what I am most looking for, but I have never even come close to reaching the limits with the dual F8's.

eliwankenobi
06-30-2015, 08:13 PM
The question to me is dual F8s vs dual F12s! What say you Dave? Would it be just a matter of output and room size?

davef
06-30-2015, 11:35 PM
The question to me is dual F8s vs dual F12s! What say you Dave? Would it be just a matter of output and room size?

Between these two options, I would go with dual F12's

steelbolz
12-24-2015, 09:20 PM
What is the difference between the black oak and the black matte finish? Which one is close to the base of the natural sierra tower?

MusicHead
12-25-2015, 01:26 PM
Black matte is a solid color, sort of opaque black. It is not smooth, it has a nice texture to the touch. I have an L12 with that finish. It does not look like wood, but it has an elegant and simple look.

Black oak I believe it has the sort of "simulated" wood grain that sometime you see in laminated furniture.

davef
12-29-2015, 12:22 AM
What is the difference between the black oak and the black matte finish? Which one is close to the base of the natural sierra tower?

The base of the tower is a satin black. Neither black matte or black oak will match this as the oak is a similar sheen as the satin black base but black oak has a grain while the satin black base does not. I think from a distance, black matte might be the closer match.

jahjd2000
01-10-2016, 11:53 AM
Dave, I have an E15HP and am considering adding a second subwoofer. Any reason I should go with a F8 over another E15HP? SPL is not my goal as I have a smaller living space. One idea I have is to run the F8 as a midbass driver, possibly near field for impact. Have you tried the F8 in conjunction with a larger sub?

davef
01-11-2016, 05:43 PM
Dave, I have an E15HP and am considering adding a second subwoofer. Any reason I should go with a F8 over another E15HP? SPL is not my goal as I have a smaller living space. One idea I have is to run the F8 as a midbass driver, possibly near field for impact. Have you tried the F8 in conjunction with a larger sub?

I would go with another E15HP. If you are running dual subs, it is best to keep them the same and the E15HP is a fantastic subwoofer.

jahjd2000
01-12-2016, 09:09 PM
I would go with another E15HP. If you are running dual subs, it is best to keep them the same and the E15HP is a fantastic subwoofer.

Good advice. I was listening to the E15HP tonight and it's so smooth. Would love to hear it paired with another one.

steelbolz
02-21-2016, 04:21 PM
The base of the tower is a satin black. Neither black matte or black oak will match this as the oak is a similar sheen as the satin black base but black oak has a grain while the satin black base does not. I think from a distance, black matte might be the closer match.

Thanks!

steelbolz
02-21-2016, 04:22 PM
Black matte is a solid color, sort of opaque black. It is not smooth, it has a nice texture to the touch. I have an L12 with that finish. It does not look like wood, but it has an elegant and simple look.

Black oak I believe it has the sort of "simulated" wood grain that sometime you see in laminated furniture.

Thanks for your response!

mikesiskav
05-13-2016, 10:45 PM
Any chance of an F8 about half the size with a single 8" woofer being developed? I've always wanted to have a pair of subwoofers in my system, but I think a pair of the current f8's with dual woofers would be overkill for me (or my neighbors).

davef
05-16-2016, 06:47 PM
Any chance of an F8 about half the size with a single 8" woofer being developed? I've always wanted to have a pair of subwoofers in my system, but I think a pair of the current f8's with dual woofers would be overkill for me (or my neighbors).

I like this idea!

mikesiskav
05-22-2016, 12:46 PM
I like this idea!

Thanks Dave! I hope one day it could happen. I would buy two in a heartbeat. I'm currently running a little M&K KX10SF. It's a small sealed 8 incher and sounds great. The bass notes are much clearer and more defined than the other sub I have (Velodyne Minivee 10). And both are sealed subs but the Velodyne has a larger, heavier cone.

eyecatcher
05-24-2016, 12:59 PM
half the size?? how about a prism shaped 6 - driver F8. like a clone of the paradigm sub2, that would be sweet.

davef
05-24-2016, 11:12 PM
Thanks Dave! I hope one day it could happen. I would buy two in a heartbeat. I'm currently running a little M&K KX10SF. It's a small sealed 8 incher and sounds great. The bass notes are much clearer and more defined than the other sub I have (Velodyne Minivee 10). And both are sealed subs but the Velodyne has a larger, heavier cone.

I worked on the KX10 subwoofer, it was basically an updated version of M&K's VX-7. IMO, there are MUCH better subwoofers out there these days. The KX10, like the older VX-7, did not have enough amplifier headroom and it really wasn't capable of getting down much below 40Hz. Good for music, but not suitable for modern day home theater.

mikesiskav
05-25-2016, 07:48 PM
I worked on the KX10 subwoofer, it was basically an updated version of M&K's VX-7. IMO, there are MUCH better subwoofers out there these days. The KX10, like the older VX-7, did not have enough amplifier headroom and it really wasn't capable of getting down much below 40Hz. Good for music, but not suitable for modern day home theater.

That's so cool that you worked on this sub. I'm not surprised at the lack of depth and output below 40hz. But I'm pretty happy with the quality of sound it does produce. That being said, my next sub will probably be a Rythmik. Just not sure which one.

davef
05-27-2016, 01:47 AM
That's so cool that you worked on this sub. I'm not surprised at the lack of depth and output below 40hz. But I'm pretty happy with the quality of sound it does produce. That being said, my next sub will probably be a Rythmik. Just not sure which one.

Since you like the sound quality of KX10 - go with the Rythmik F8... Trust me on this ;) It has the same amount of detail and tightness - only with much much more output and is capable of truly reaching down low...

bkdc
05-27-2016, 06:28 AM
I too would be interested in a single-driver F8 sealed subwoofer. I used to own a pair of F15's which were overkill for my space.

Now, I am very happy with a pair of small SVS SB-1000 subwoofers. They do a nice job of filling out the bottom with tight bass. They are paired with Sierra Towers, so I do not need the SVS subs to play accurately at higher frequency since they are crossed over at 60Hz. They are not capable of shaking the room for home theater buffs. As I get older, I'm also happy that they are light in weight so can lift them without throwing out my back. This is a mixed bag. Obviously, heavier weight is associated with quality in subwoofers.

I think I could upgrade again to a pair of F12's, but my neighbors would NOT be happy.

sludgeogre
05-27-2016, 07:50 AM
I think I could upgrade again to a pair of F12's, but my neighbors would NOT be happy.

I own a pair of F12's and I have them on SVS SoundPath isolation feet. I live in a duplex and I play my system fairly loud from time to time. Because the bass on the Rythmik is so tactile, it has never bothered my neighbors. Sure, I can turn them up and make everything shake, but I don't really enjoy that anyway.

Anyway, I think the duals are worth it because the bass is so even throughout the room, even though I'm sitting in a null I can still hear great bass, it just sounds a little better at the edge of the room. I cannot wait to move into a new house and finally have my own theater room, but the dual F12's work great in a duplex for now. I'm sure with a really boomy sub my neighbors would hate me.

I have no idea if the SoundPath feet are really doing anything either, since I put them on the subs as soon as they arrived, so I haven't tried them with the regular feet. They still make the floor in front of me shake a little bit, but it doesn't transfer out of my living room, it seems.

mikesiskav
05-30-2016, 11:47 AM
Since you like the sound quality of KX10 - go with the Rythmik F8... Trust me on this ;) It has the same amount of detail and tightness - only with much much more output and is capable of truly reaching down low...

Hi Dave, do you guys have the F8 on demo at your shop?

davef
05-31-2016, 04:36 PM
Hi Dave, do you guys have the F8 on demo at your shop?

We don't - but I have (2) of them at my home. If you are serious, I suppose I could bring one to the shop for you :)

mikesiskav
05-31-2016, 10:06 PM
We don't - but I have (2) of them at my home. If you are serious, I suppose I could bring one to the shop for you :)

Thanks for offering but that seems like a lot of trouble. Do you guys have the F8 in stock? Which finishes?

14er
06-01-2016, 05:55 PM
Thanks for offering but that seems like a lot of trouble. Do you guys have the F8 in stock? Which finishes?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f8.html

mikesiskav
06-01-2016, 06:26 PM
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/f8.html
Thanks, but that page doesn't show what's in stock. I called Ascend earlier today and found out they don't have the subwoofer in stock in San Clemente. It gets shipped from Texas. I was hoping to just stop by and pick one up since I live locally.

davef
06-02-2016, 05:42 PM
Thanks, but that page doesn't show what's in stock. I called Ascend earlier today and found out they don't have the subwoofer in stock in San Clemente. It gets shipped from Texas. I was hoping to just stop by and pick one up since I live locally.

All subs ship direct from the factory in Texas. If we were to stock and ship subs from our location, our pricing would increase as we would have to cover the freight costs of getting the subwoofers to us, as well as requiring additional storage for them here...

mikesiskav
06-06-2016, 06:45 PM
All subs ship direct from the factory in Texas. If we were to stock and ship subs from our location, our pricing would increase as we would have to cover the freight costs of getting the subwoofers to us, as well as requiring additional storage for them here...

Order placed for one F8 in piano black! Now the waiting begins.

gas
06-06-2016, 07:20 PM
It will be well worth the wait. I'm running Sierra 2's LCR and 200's with an F8 and totally impressed. Dave made the suggestion and I couldn't be happier.

mikesiskav
06-18-2016, 03:59 PM
My F8 is arriving on Tuesday! I'm taking the day off from work to receive it. Lots of pics to follow.

curtis
06-18-2016, 04:49 PM
My F8 is arriving on Tuesday! I'm taking the day off from work to receive it. Lots of pics to follow.
Sweet...I should go to your place and check them out.

mikesiskav
06-18-2016, 05:42 PM
Sweet...I should go to your place and check them out.

Absolutely!

mikesiskav
06-22-2016, 10:05 PM
Hey guys, my Rythmik F8 arrived on Tuesday safe and sound. It's a good thing I stayed home to receive it. The UPS guy just left it outside my door without getting my signature. He didn't even ring the door bell. I just happened to open the door to check outside, and there it was.

Since yesterday, I've been breaking it in, tweaking the settings, measuring with Room EQ Wizard, and most off all, listening to music and watching movies. I'll probably end up posting a separate mini review of the sub in a while. For now, here's a few pics.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u362/mikesiskav/20160621_124028_zpsxu0yqrxe.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/mikesiskav/media/20160621_124028_zpsxu0yqrxe.jpg.html)

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u362/mikesiskav/20160621_124053_zps1lbwqgtg.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/mikesiskav/media/20160621_124053_zps1lbwqgtg.jpg.html)

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u362/mikesiskav/20160621_125133_zpsyrlls3mc.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/mikesiskav/media/20160621_125133_zpsyrlls3mc.jpg.html)

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u362/mikesiskav/20160621_125406_zpsyel2tn2j.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/mikesiskav/media/20160621_125406_zpsyel2tn2j.jpg.html)

curtis
06-23-2016, 12:10 AM
Cool! What about a pic without the grille?

mikesiskav
06-23-2016, 10:06 AM
Here you go. The piano black finish is fantastic. Very smooth and mirror-like.

http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u362/mikesiskav/20160621_130755_zps1rfqq5xa.jpg (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/mikesiskav/media/20160621_130755_zps1rfqq5xa.jpg.html)

gas
07-03-2016, 03:28 PM
What are your impressions after the first week

Gary

mikesiskav
07-05-2016, 01:07 AM
The F8 is everything I was looking for in a subwoofer: tight, detailed, deep bass all in a compact package. I used to have a JL Audio F112 ($3,000 retail) and I would say that the F8 is at least as good if not better when it comes to bass articulation. The JL probably had a bit more output but I'm sure the F8 can play more than loud enough to disturb my neighbors.

skypickle
01-02-2017, 05:50 PM
sorry to necro this thread, but i was wondering how to best integrate an f8 with my maggies (3.7i)
It's only for music.
The room is large (40x15 with a sloping ceiling(7ft to 14ft)
Room is treated with curtains and REW shows only a small dip at 80hz although bass below 50 is rolled off significantly.
The audio chain is a pc (win 10 pro with custom usb card)->gustard x20 dac->preamp->amps->speakers.

Room correction software has not yet been added. So my question is this:
If I add a couple of F8 subs, I'll want to have a crossover to spare the maggies the stress of reproducing the low freqs. I would cross over at 50 hz since that's what the f8 has. I would choos the steepest rolloff possible which in this case is 24 db. But my concern has to do with the crossover and the noise it will add to the signal. I know there are analog as well as digital cross overs. The digital ones have an a/d conversion step, then the dsp occurs in a chip and then another d/a converter. Since I go to all this trouble to get a low noise floor, I would then consider using dsp in the pc. This way, room correction occurs in the digital domain before the signal ever hits the d/a converter.

I have looked at acourate and dirac for this purpose. But I still need a simple way to get the low freqs to the sub and the high freqs to the maggies. I have tried to keep everything simple. My preamp is actually a headphone amp with a pair of balanced outputs in the back. These go directly to the magtech monoblocks powering the maggies.

I know I could get a DEQX or a dbx venu360. These devices not only room correct but also take into account each speaker independently and can equalize them independently. But if I am going to this trouble, I could also sell the gustardx20 and just pipe the signal directly into this crossover/dac device. OF course there are limitations - no >96khz songs, no DSD.

Anyway, I thought I'd ask how people here are integrating their rythmiks with their planar speakers?

sludgeogre
01-03-2017, 09:41 AM
sorry to necro this thread, but i was wondering how to best integrate an f8 with my maggies (3.7i)
It's only for music.
The room is large (40x15 with a sloping ceiling(7ft to 14ft)
Room is treated with curtains and REW shows only a small dip at 80hz although bass below 50 is rolled off significantly.
The audio chain is a pc (win 10 pro with custom usb card)->gustard x20 dac->preamp->amps->speakers.

Room correction software has not yet been added. So my question is this:
If I add a couple of F8 subs, I'll want to have a crossover to spare the maggies the stress of reproducing the low freqs. I would cross over at 50 hz since that's what the f8 has. I would choos the steepest rolloff possible which in this case is 24 db. But my concern has to do with the crossover and the noise it will add to the signal. I know there are analog as well as digital cross overs. The digital ones have an a/d conversion step, then the dsp occurs in a chip and then another d/a converter. Since I go to all this trouble to get a low noise floor, I would then consider using dsp in the pc. This way, room correction occurs in the digital domain before the signal ever hits the d/a converter.

I have looked at acourate and dirac for this purpose. But I still need a simple way to get the low freqs to the sub and the high freqs to the maggies. I have tried to keep everything simple. My preamp is actually a headphone amp with a pair of balanced outputs in the back. These go directly to the magtech monoblocks powering the maggies.

I know I could get a DEQX or a dbx venu360. These devices not only room correct but also take into account each speaker independently and can equalize them independently. But if I am going to this trouble, I could also sell the gustardx20 and just pipe the signal directly into this crossover/dac device. OF course there are limitations - no >96khz songs, no DSD.

Anyway, I thought I'd ask how people here are integrating their rythmiks with their planar speakers?

By far the simplest way is to use the internal crossovers on the subs, just make sure you order the model that has them (The XLR amps don't have crossovers). Just put the RCA cables from the preamp into the subs, then output from the subs to the amps. This keeps you in the analog domain so you will have the fewest problems with noise and there's no extra a/d and d/a conversion. You don't really need to get fancy with any other devices, since you know how to use REW you can just dial your system in that way. I doubt you'll have many issues since going with dual subs makes things much easier as well.

Just my two cents.

skypickle
01-03-2017, 10:25 AM
(The XLR amps don't have crossovers). Just put the RCA cables from the preamp into the subs, then output from the subs to the amps.

Just my two cents.

Thank you. But the subs I am considering are these:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html
The back looks like this
1406

and this
1407

I did not see any images of line outputs from which I would feed the amps to my maggies.

sludgeogre
01-03-2017, 11:12 AM
Thank you. But the subs I am considering are these:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html
The back looks like this
1406

and this
1407

I did not see any images of line outputs from which I would feed the amps to my maggies.

My apologies, I thought the F8 had the crossover in the amp, but I guess not. The F12 does have it though, I just checked: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/A370PEQ_quickguide.pdf

The F12 is a little more expensive, though, but I think it is an intensely good subwoofer. It is also more appropriate for the crossover frequency you're looking at, as the F8 is more ideal for pairing with bookshelves that need to be crossed over much higher. The F8 can go as high as 250 Hz whereas the F12 goes up to above 150 Hz, the F12 also has the aluminum driver.

skypickle
01-03-2017, 11:47 AM
My apologies, I thought the F8 had the crossover in the amp, but I guess not. The F12 does have it though, I just checked: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/A370PEQ_quickguide.pdf

The F12 is a little more expensive, though, but I think it is an intensely good subwoofer. It is also more appropriate for the crossover frequency you're looking at, as the F8 is more ideal for pairing with bookshelves that need to be crossed over much higher. The F8 can go as high as 250 Hz whereas the F12 goes up to above 150 Hz, the F12 also has the aluminum driver.

Thank you. I was looking at the F8 because this is to augment the maggie 3.7i - a very fast speaker. I thought that a small cone for the woofer would be best. Also, I am concerned about muddy bass as flapping happens in bigger cones(when the rim of the cone is not in sync with the hub). Of course it's hard to know if this stuff is measured - surely it is never published. The F12 looks just like what i need. The line outs are crossed at 80 hz but I dont know the slope of that high pass filter. The lo pass cross (pictured at the bottom of the control panel) has a choice of 50hz with a 24 db slope or 80 hz with a 24 db slope. I guess that setting depends on what the room is doing. But then there is another setting near the top of the control panel labeled crossover level. That seems confusing. And then to add to the confusion is a volume knob next to it with the blurb 'Volume level setting is determined by the efficiency of front speakers. It is not an indication of whether the sub can play louder or not. '

I guess I should email rythmik for clarification.

sludgeogre
01-03-2017, 01:53 PM
Thank you. I was looking at the F8 because this is to augment the maggie 3.7i - a very fast speaker. I thought that a small cone for the woofer would be best. Also, I am concerned about muddy bass as flapping happens in bigger cones(when the rim of the cone is not in sync with the hub). Of course it's hard to know if this stuff is measured - surely it is never published. The F12 looks just like what i need. The line outs are crossed at 80 hz but I dont know the slope of that high pass filter. The lo pass cross (pictured at the bottom of the control panel) has a choice of 50hz with a 24 db slope or 80 hz with a 24 db slope. I guess that setting depends on what the room is doing. But then there is another setting near the top of the control panel labeled crossover level. That seems confusing. And then to add to the confusion is a volume knob next to it with the blurb 'Volume level setting is determined by the efficiency of front speakers. It is not an indication of whether the sub can play louder or not. '

I guess I should email rythmik for clarification.

I don't think you need to worry about cone size with Rythmik subs. As you said, some larger subs produce muddy bass with that flapping action, but because of the direct servo technology that Rythmik uses, the sensing coil is always controlling that action, making sure that the cone is moving how it is supposed to and compensating in real time. I really think the F12 is much more appropriate for what you are trying to do. I'm part of a Magnepan user group on Facebook since I own an old pair of Tympani 1D's and most guys are running F12's with their Maggies in that group. I've just never used mine with the F12's and I have the XLR amp so I don't have the crossover, I just use Audyssey for that on my AV7701 processor.

The crossover knob on the subs is only to cut off where the sub stops playing, it doesn't do anything to the high pass filter. The F12 high pass/low pass is set only at 80 Hz, but you can still play with the slope I think. The volume knob is just a normal volume knob, they are just saying that how you want to set that all depends on how efficient your speakers are. If you have high sensitivity speakers, then you can set the volume pretty low, but with power hungry speakers like Maggies, you'll probably run it a little higher. If you run dual subs, you can use a splitter on the input and that gives you 6 dB of more gain, so you get higher volume for each click of the volume knob, if that makes sense.

billy p
01-03-2017, 02:05 PM
Thank you. I was looking at the F8 because this is to augment the maggie 3.7i - a very fast speaker. I thought that a small cone for the woofer would be best. Also, I am concerned about muddy bass as flapping happens in bigger cones(when the rim of the cone is not in sync with the hub). Of course it's hard to know if this stuff is measured - surely it is never published. The F12 looks just like what i need. The line outs are crossed at 80 hz but I dont know the slope of that high pass filter. The lo pass cross (pictured at the bottom of the control panel) has a choice of 50hz with a 24 db slope or 80 hz with a 24 db slope. I guess that setting depends on what the room is doing. But then there is another setting near the top of the control panel labeled crossover level. That seems confusing. And then to add to the confusion is a volume knob next to it with the blurb 'Volume level setting is determined by the efficiency of front speakers. It is not an indication of whether the sub can play louder or not. '

I guess I should email rythmik for clarification.

Please read this article about some subwoofer myths and fallacies...

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 03:28 PM
The F8 does have a slight advantage when it comes to bass articulation compared to the other subs in the Rythmik lineup. Both Brian and Dave will tell you this. It has to do with the mass of the woofers. I had even asked Brian about using black aluminum cones in the F8 simply because I like they way they look, and he told me that you would lose sound quality due to the heavier mass of aluminum cones.

That being said, you may be better of with the F12 due to the more feature rich crossover.

billy p
01-03-2017, 04:32 PM
The F8 does have a slight advantage when it comes to bass articulation compared to the other subs in the Rythmik lineup. Both Brian and Dave will tell you this. It has to do with the mass of the woofers. I had even asked Brian about using black aluminum cones in the F8 simply because I like they way they look, and he told me that you would lose sound quality due to the heavier mass of aluminum cones.

That being said, you may be better of with the F12 due to the more feature rich crossover.

I reckon as JR alluded too....the mass loaded or stiffer cone might only effect higher frequencies and for a sub though its likely inaudible for most....iirc....my driver has a +/- 3db up to 800hz...but I am not interested in finding out....as most bass interaction in any particular room will start to sound bloated or localize above 200hz in any event.

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 04:47 PM
I reckon as JR alluded too....the mass loaded or stiffer cone might only effect higher frequencies and for a sub though its likely inaudible for most....iirc....my driver has a +/- 3db up to 800hz...but I am not interested in finding out....as most bass interaction in any particular room will start to sound bloated or localize above 200hz in any event.

Who is JR? And what do you mean mass loaded? You mean like a passive radiator?

billy p
01-03-2017, 05:01 PM
Who is JR? And what do you mean mass loaded? You mean like a passive radiator?

No to the latter and...I linked Data-Bass...so the JR is Josh Ricci....lol.

Mass in this case would be size and weight...thou I can understand and appreciate how Dave and Brian share the same common design principles & philosophies. I like and use Data-Base for baseline testing...a lot of folks do...:)

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 05:55 PM
I know what mass is. Mass loading usually refers to adding additional mass to a speaker for tuning purposes or reducing vibration.

I'm familiar with Data Bass. The Rythmik FV15HP did quite well in their tests.

davef
01-03-2017, 06:05 PM
Please read this article about some subwoofer myths and fallacies...

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

I believe when most people refer to the "speed" of a speaker or a subwoofer, they are unknowingly referring to transient response. They do not mean how "fast" the woofer is moving or how fast it can move, but how quickly that woofer can come to a full stop and start. This is no myth or fallacy, and is easily measured and is often quite audible. Low mass drivers in combination with low inductance and powerful motor systems = greater transient accuracy. Add to this Direct Servo - which further improves transient accuracy.

Ribbon and electrostatic speakers have exceptionally accurate transients - and as such, it is indeed important to try and extend that to the subwoofer as well (at least as best as is possible as no sub can match these speakers).

There is a reason so many electrostatic and ribbon speaker owners are using Rythmik subs or have been pointed towards Rythmik.

The F8 is an incredibly articulate subwoofer.

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 06:16 PM
Excellent info Dave. I should point out that I am not just a Rythmik fanboy. I have 7 subwoofers from 4 different manufacturers in my home right now. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I have also owned previously 2 subs from SVS and 3 subs from HSU.

davef
01-03-2017, 06:34 PM
Excellent info Dave. I should point out that I am not just a Rythmik fanboy. I have 7 subwoofers from 4 different manufacturers in my home right now. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I have also owned previously 2 subs from SVS and 3 subs from HSU.

That is a lot of subwoofers! Although we have sold off most of them by now, we also have many subs from SVS and HSU that were sent to us for evaluation over the years. I probably still have a few M&K's around here somewhere too ;)

sludgeogre
01-03-2017, 06:35 PM
There is a reason so many electrostatic and ribbon speaker owners are using Rythmik subs or have been pointed towards Rythmik.

That is no joke. The only sub recommendation that gets thrown out in any Magnepan group I was part of was always Rythmik. It was eye-opening to see how many guys had problems integrating other subs, but Rythmik subs can be dialed in to sound incredible with Magnepan speakers in a day or so. It's even easier than using the DWM bass panel module.

rsmt2000
01-03-2017, 06:36 PM
I tried to get Brian to say that F8 has better transient response than other subs but he did not explicitly say anything regarding it. I tried F8s at my place but returned them as they were not cutting it for bass heavy movie scenes. YMMV. My rythmik F15 never felt shy to bring down the whole house and then some....😀.

Thanks
Ron

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 07:00 PM
I tried to get Brian to say that F8 has better transient response than other subs but he did not explicitly say anything regarding it. I tried F8s at my place but returned them as they were not cutting it for bass heavy movie scenes. YMMV. My rythmik F15 never felt shy to bring down the whole house and then some....��.

Thanks
Ron

Ron, I may have misspoke about what Brian would say. I know Dave has shown a preference for the F8.

When it comes to bass heavy movies scenes, I too have hit the limit of dual F8 on occasion with some movies (TRON, LOTR). One thing I found interesting in my testing is that that dual F8s have pretty decent output at very low frequencies. I can get my doors 30 feet away to audibly vibrate with 12hz test tones with the F8s. As you go higher in frequency, however, the output capability does not increase as much as with some other subs.

billy p
01-03-2017, 07:07 PM
I tried to get Brian to say that F8 has better transient response than other subs but he did not explicitly say anything regarding it. I tried F8s at my place but returned them as they were not cutting it for bass heavy movie scenes. YMMV. My rythmik F15 never felt shy to bring down the whole house and then some....��.

Thanks
Ron

Hey Ron....thou I've never experienced Rythmik in home, I have heard them a couple of occasions...my first encounter albeit brief was at PSA when I dropped by the shop whilst in the area and second was closer to home at a friends gtg both vtf15h and fv15hp on display along with some diy subs....aamof the RA and Hsu where dual setups...but without hearing them in my home I can not comment or speculate regarding SQ or personal preference.

enricoclaudio
01-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Hey Ron....thou I've never experienced Rythmik in home, I have heard them a couple of occasions...my first encounter albeit brief was at PSA when I dropped by the shop whilst in the area and second was closer to home at a friends gtg both vtf15h and fv15hp on display along with some diy subs....aamof the RA and Hsu where dual setups...but without hearing them in my home I can not comment or speculate regarding SQ or personal preference.

So you listened to a Rythmik Audio subwoofer at PSA shop (as Power Sound Audio)?

billy p
01-03-2017, 07:35 PM
So you listened to a Rythmik Audio subwoofer at PSA shop (as Power Sound Audio)?

No... both listening session where here locally....my first encounter...yes..was at PSA in Mineral Ridge...I met with Jim at the time...it was about 4yrs ago.

rsmt2000
01-03-2017, 07:54 PM
Ron, I may have misspoke about what Brian would say. I know Dave has shown a preference for the F8.

When it comes to bass heavy movies scenes, I too have hit the limit of dual F8 on occasion with some movies (TRON, LOTR). One thing I found interesting in my testing is that that dual F8s have pretty decent output at very low frequencies. I can get my doors 30 feet away to audibly vibrate with 12hz test tones with the F8s. As you go higher in frequency, however, the output capability does not increase as much as with some other subs.

Yes. That dreaded Tron movie made me return the F8s. I was testing things out and was planning to watch the "light cycle battle" scene but the subs threw up at the very first scene where the guy (Flynn) ends up at the "digital frontier". But I guess that's what will happen if we try to mis-use the product. As far as I know F8s were not designed to play very heavy bass scenes in Interstellar. The upcoming 18s are for that purpose. But I will and many others am sure would like to know how good the F18 is for music

Thanks
Ron

mikesiskav
01-03-2017, 09:49 PM
No... both listening session where here locally....my first encounter...yes..was at PSA in Mineral Ridge...I met with Jim at the time...it was about 4yrs ago.

BTW, I think Funk makes some pretty impressive subs. I would like to own one or two. As well as something from JTR and PSA, and HSU. I think I have a problem. :p

RythmikAudio
01-04-2017, 06:24 AM
I had a small group at new year party my house for 20+ people. I never showed off my subwoofer business. But my wife urged me to do it. So I invite them to my 2 channel setup. It has AA 340SE plus a 15" sealed subs. I first showed them how the speakers just disappear and then played the Chesky Test CD 2 where there is a group of percussion musician come into a warehouse and circle around the microphones. The sound stage from those AA 340SE plus subwoofer is just amazing. The sound never appears from the speakers themselves. Not only that, you can hear they go to behind the speakers, to the left of the left speaker, then to the front of both speakers and then to the right of the right speaker, and continue circling. The sound stage was almost 3 dimensional, left and right, back and front, and low to high. The same Chesky test CD2 also has a track to test if microphone can hear the height. They kept asking me if that is multi-channel or some DSP (again buzz words). I told them it is 2 channel, unaltered in any way. I told them, that room is the best I have found in years. All that audible illusion is created by coherent sound from reasonably controlled wall reflection. My speakers are placed about 4 ft from back wall and 5 ft from side walls. It is difficult for me to give it back to my wife. I use that for all of my subwoofer testing. Towards the end, I had to play "Bass I love you". They saw the cone movement.

Sound is a fasinating thing to a lot of us. That group of mine indeed have different level of experience in audio. The most experienced one has a coaxial Tonnoy and he asked me to demo with small emsemble music and I played "Spanish Harlem" by Rebecca Pidgeon. He commented my system sounds much better than his in terms of articulation. He used exact the same track when he shopped for his speakers. Of course I also told them I am old fashion and therefore I am still using Ayre CD player, which by itself costs more than the rest of the system combined. What was interesting is one of them also brought up "****". The power of marketing is just amazing.


Now how do I know what I know now? It is via friends, it is via trade show (Audio show such as CES that I went more than 10 times), and it is via publication (both peer reviewed and non-peer reviewed). I was so lucky that I had an audio fanatic friend when I was in graduate school that in his room, he had changed the power amp at least 10 times, experiment with all sorts of cables and gadgets. He spent the money (trade-in equipments from time to time) and I did all the listening tests. The timing was perfect, that was when I am still annealable in my engineering training and what I hear gradually in my mind formed correlation to the physical world that I observed. I will talk about the danger of our eduation system next.

A lot of people go to a particular profession because of passion. But others don't and that makes huge difference and how they care about their products. I can tell you a lot of audio engineers don't listen to the products they designed. For them, it is just a job, from 9 to 5. Second, there are often criticism that today's education system is too rigid and it creates mind set from a common mold, and not many can really think outside the box. In audio, I can see that. Supposely I go to these trade shows and I cannot tell the difference these equipments make and I lost hearing in one ear, but I see big and easy bucks and still want to be in audio industry, I can still do well becasue I can apply all the "common sense", correct?

There are two types of publications: peer reviewed and non-peer reviewed. The former carries much more authority. I often treat the latter as opinions. For instance, some of the topics in the link Billy provided is just too hot to be peer reviewed. They will be striken out, not because it is right or wrong, but because there is no evidence of one way or another. Lastly, I do have a Ph.D degree and I can only earn my degree by publishing peer reviewed papers and I know how that goes. It is much easier to do a non-peer reviewed paper. You can pretty much write whatever.

Now go back to the subjects of F8. F8 is primarily for music/light HT system. Its bass sounds differently from the larger subwoofers because of "low inertia". For some it is almost feel like "light weight" because it comes and goes very fast. But frequency response wise, it does extends to below 20hz. I know a few customers can get F8 shake their room (as long as it is not large). Two months ago, I have another customer asked me about F8 on sale because he was on a film project at Austin for a few months. He is happy with F8 that shakes his smallish room and considering getting another F8 to save shipping cost on his way back to LA. So room size is an important factor. If you have a large room, not only you don't get the benefit of F8 and in fact it exposes its weakness much easier.

For Maggies, I think an F12G is a good fit, in particular if you need HPF. I had another local customer who bought all the subs he can return and borrow others, Hsu, SVS, F12, F12G and others from local stores, and he eventually goes with a pair of F12G. In his opinion, the tonality of F12G matches better with Maggies, depending on how critical your hearing is.

skypickle
01-04-2017, 07:01 AM
Thank you for your candid and sincere discussion. As I mentioned a couple pages back, I am drawn to the F8s because of the transient response. However, their crossover is lacking and I do not want to buy 'another box' to put in between my dac and my amp. Another concern of the F8s (and I will need two of them making 4 drivers) is the potential for interference. With multiple drivers, there is the concern that there will be muddying of the sound as the there will be multiple points of origin creating many more reflections. Although it should be easier to eliminate nodes this way (multiple small nodes are easier to hide that a couple of big nodes), I am concerned (as one reviewer put it) of kettle drums making a 'whoom' instead of a 'boom'.

So it seems there is a trade off:
F8s for quicker response at the cost of losing them in a large room and losing the transients they provide by virtue of multiple drivers. I only listen to music with this setup (for now) and the maggie 3.7is are 5 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls. I would put the subs inboard of the maggies with the drivers equidistant from the listening position with the maggies.

mikesiskav
01-05-2017, 12:16 AM
Excellent info Brian. I totally agree about loving what you do. I love playing with audio video equipment and that's why I got into the business (sales and installation). I much rather deal with people who are passionate about their careers.

skypickle
01-05-2017, 05:03 AM
so how are people here integrating the F8 into their stereo systems? Since it does not have a crossover like its larger siblings, how do you adjust a quicker rolloff, etc? Which crossovers do you use? and where do you put them??

enricoclaudio
01-05-2017, 05:37 AM
so how are people here integrating the F8 into their stereo systems? Since it does not have a crossover like its larger siblings, how do you adjust a quicker rolloff, etc? Which crossovers do you use? and where do you put them??

The F8 does have delay/phase knob, crossover knob and selectable LPF slope (12dB or 24dB per octave) so it's very easy to integrate on any system.

1408

skypickle
01-05-2017, 05:55 AM
The F8 does have delay/phase knob, crossover knob and selectable LPF slope (12dB or 24dB per octave) so it's very easy to integrate on any system.

1408

Thank you. But i was more interested in what the 'audiophiles' do. Obviously, they want to time align their subs, they want to roll off their mains to let the subs do the heavy lifting at the low end, they might want a sharper rolloff than 24db/octave. Or are these concerns not audible?

Please forgive the naïveté of my questions. I have never integrated a sub before and am just trying to learn.

RythmikAudio
01-05-2017, 07:05 AM
Thank you. But i was more interested in what the 'audiophiles' do. Obviously, they want to time align their subs, they want to roll off their mains to let the subs do the heavy lifting at the low end, they might want a sharper rolloff than 24db/octave. Or are these concerns not audible?

Please forgive the naïveté of my questions. I have never integrated a sub before and am just trying to learn.

What audiophiles want is for their speakers to disappear. The same thing is for the subwoofer. That is really what it boils down to in the end so that we just enjoy the music and not even realize the presence of speakers/subwoofers.

Crossover has a long history. On one extreme, we have speaker companies like Thiel and Vandesteen advocate 1st order with the largest overlap between drivers (which means drivers have to work wider bandwidth than they normally do). On the other extreme, we have the infinite slope crossover that shapes like a cliff (and therefore claim perfect transition from one driver to another). Both approaches have problem that it creates "lobes" of frequency response and the MLP is not at the peak of the lobe. If you are slightly off that MLP, then you can have large dip or variation in FR. In front speakers, that also degrade sound stage because the image is created by direct wave plus wall reflections. If the wall reflection, which is from the off-axis FR of speakers, is very different from direct wave, the sound stage naturally suffers.

Only after Linkwitz-Riley published their paper on a family of filters with perfect phase alignment at the
crossover point (which includes 12db/oct, 24db/oct, 36db/oct...configuration), engineers begin to realize this "phase alignment" is THE key to all crossover designs. It creates the large "lobe" in the frequency response and the improves the image as well. Ever since them, the Linkwitz-Riley (or simply L-R) becomes the only filter people talk about. In particular, the 24db/oct L-R becomes the most important. All AVRs adopt that configuration in their bass management. It is really the milestone in audio.


As for the question that multiple subwoofer drivers can blur the image, I really don't think it is not bad as long as the drivers are close to each other. David's 340SE is what we call MTM which also has two bass drivers. I never feel the image from those speakers are not as good as any single bass driver speakers I have own or I have heard in the show. The subwoofer reproduces wavelength that is much longer than that from 340SE.

For the amp in HX580, we have all the hooks to add HPF. But HPF has to be in RCA, not XLR. If HPF is highly desirable, we may just add that. This is where we need customer feedback.

skypickle
01-05-2017, 08:09 AM
For the amp in HX580, we have all the hooks to add HPF. But HPF has to be in RCA, not XLR. If HPF is highly desirable, we may just add that. This is where we need customer feedback.

Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

The amps listed here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'


And what is MTM?

Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.

enricoclaudio
01-05-2017, 08:16 AM
Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

The amps listed here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'


And what is MTM?

Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html

MTM: Midwoofer-Tweeter-Midwoofer loudspeaker configuration. The Ascend CMT-340SE is a MTM speaker.

RythmikAudio
01-05-2017, 08:23 AM
Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?

The amps listed here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html

show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'


HX580 (used in F8) and HX590 (used in L22) share the same circuit board. Right now HPF is not available on either one of them. But the circuit board can add an HPF easily. If you check out the amp on L22, it has left/right line in plus an LFE in. We can convert that LFE in to an HPF out. But that means you need to have two F8, one for left and one for right.



And what is MTM?

Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.

MTM is midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer, a configuration that place tweeter between two midwoofers. The configuration can be generalized to any speaker design with symmetric top half and bottom half relative to the tweeter at the middle.

skypickle
01-05-2017, 08:27 AM
I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?

sludgeogre
01-05-2017, 08:59 AM
I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?

A lot of people use the MiniDSP 2x4 and their other products for this purpose. They have their own user forum with tons of guides and lots of positive results. It's also the cheapest way there is to incorporate room correction into a system, especially a stereo system.

skypickle
01-05-2017, 09:03 AM
A lot of people use the MiniDSP 2x4 and their other products for this purpose. They have their own user forum with tons of guides and lots of positive results. It's also the cheapest way there is to incorporate room correction into a system, especially a stereo system.
but i don't see any separate room correction in your chain sludge ogre. i guess the emotive has dirac or something tho.

maybe i should not overthink this. just move the speakers around and start throwing blankets on the wall and run REW scans till i am happy. when i am tired enough, i'll be able to enjoy the music.

sludgeogre
01-05-2017, 09:17 AM
but i don't see any separate room correction in your chain sludge ogre. i guess the emotive has dirac or something tho.

maybe i should not overthink this. just move the speakers around and start throwing blankets on the wall and run REW scans till i am happy. when i am tired enough, i'll be able to enjoy the music.

The Marantz AV7701 in my chain is a processor with Audyssey XT room correction. Works decently well in my room, but I would really love to upgrade to something with Dirac in it.

MusicHead
01-05-2017, 12:01 PM
I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.

But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?

I have a modest system based on a Emotiva Fusion 8100 AVR in 5.1 configuration, which I also use in 2.1 for music. In both cases I use the bass management from the AVR, crossing my Rythmik L12 sub at 80Hz with the mains (which are set to "small").

The result is very good for music and quite up to the task for movies. In my 18x14x8 room with two large opening to the rest of the lower floor the L12 easily rattles the windows and depending on the movies you can "feel" the bass through the couch :-)

I believe that using the amp/AVR bass management to take care of the crossover point assures a better integration than "intercepting" the natural -3dB point of the main speakers lower extension with the upper end of the sub frequency response. It is not impossible or wrong to do it that way, if you have a stereo amp with no bass management, but again, if you can simplify use the bass management of the amp/AVR (which is essentially an electronic crossover), why not?

Mazeppa
04-09-2017, 10:02 AM
I like this idea!

Were they close to 1/2 the cost of a dual F8, I would have 2 single F8's in a heartbeat.

My application is 2.1 for music only in a small listening space. CBM 170-SE's have been ordered.
External crossover(s) via Marchand XM-1 modules (LR 24db) are available to me.

Good transient response and higher usable crossover points of the F8 interest me, but I am unclear if I can make good use of said higher crossover points.

Can anyone tell me what frequency bass content usually goes from mono to stereo in recorded music?
Late 60's/early 70's rock&roll is my main jam.
If the answer is say, 100Hz or less then stereo content is being lost crossing a single F8 at 200Hz is my quandary.

Space/fiscal constraints limit me to a single sub placed between the mains. An L12 is my backup plan if I can't satisfy myself that I can well utilize the higher crossover point available from the F8.

I have made inquiry to Rythmik as to the feasibility of modifying an F8 to two separate 8"'s in the stock enclosure and am awaiting further response to my question.

MusicHead
04-09-2017, 06:18 PM
Were they close to 1/2 the cost of a dual F8, I would have 2 single F8's in a heartbeat.

My application is 2.1 for music only in a small listening space. CBM 170-SE's have been ordered.
External crossover(s) via Marchand XM-1 modules (LR 24db) are available to me.

Good transient response and higher usable crossover points of the F8 interest me, but I am unclear if I can make good use of said higher crossover points.

Can anyone tell me what frequency bass content usually goes from mono to stereo in recorded music?
Late 60's/early 70's rock&roll is my main jam.
If the answer is say, 100Hz or less then stereo content is being lost crossing a single F8 at 200Hz is my quandary.

Space/fiscal constraints limit me to a single sub placed between the mains. An L12 is my backup plan if I can't satisfy myself that I can well utilize the higher crossover point available from the F8.

I have made inquiry to Rythmik as to the feasibility of modifying an F8 to two separate 8"'s in the stock enclosure and am awaiting further response to my question.

Why do you want to cross at 200Hz? I have a single L12 paired with two CMT-340 SE main for L&R channels. This combo sounds very, very good with 2-ch music and quite good with movie in a 5.1 configuration. Although the CBM-170 does not reach as low as the CMT-340, it reaches low enough to be crossed at 80Hz, which is still well above it's -3dB roll-off point.

Mazeppa
04-10-2017, 06:09 AM
I'm quite sure CBM-170's with an L12 crossed @ 80Hz would be great.
Heck, my $100 eBay NHT SuperZero's running @ full range with a $90 craigslist Paradigm PDR-12 crossed about 80Hz sounds pretty darn good.
So, going to the 170's and a better sub should be a significant upgrade.

The reason I'm exploring the idea of crossing the sub higher is in case relieving the 170's of that extra bit of "down low" duty would help the mid/treble performance. Plus, the F8 (by all accounts) could be better in the 80-200Hz range than the 170's.

I'm about to decide to crossover @80Hz with a single L12.
Still intrigued by the thought of stereo subs, though. If I could stereo a dual F8.......or, get two single F8's at a reasonable cost.......could be some magic there.

Glad to hear your L12/340's combo works well. I looked hard at the 340's, but went with the 170's as my listening area is so small.
Are you running your 340's full range, or high passed @ your sub's xover freq?

MusicHead
04-10-2017, 02:26 PM
I am running the 340s high passed at 80Hz using the bass management in my receiver. The way the L12 works, if it is fed using the LFE input the internal crossover and phase adjustable controls are bypassed. That way the receiver or pre-pro take care of xover and phase, while you can still manually adjust sub output and bass extension. In reference to the latter, I keep the setting in "Low Music", so that the -3dB point of the L12 frequency response is 17Hz.

Dave can for sure elaborate more (and much better) on the subject, however I believe that crossing at 80Hz you are already helping the CMB-170 quite a bit. Even if the F8 can be used in "stereo" mode (I doubt it), the physical setup of the sub would keep left and right so close to nullify any stereo separation. Not to mention that the spacing would be way less than the spacing of the LR mains.

I have never tried it, but I believe the best way to have a stereo sub setup is to use two physically separate subs, feed them using the "Line In", one using only the L channel, the other using only the R channel and then adjusting xover, phase and level on both manually.

Doing this and if you put the two subs underneath or very close to the CBM-170, you could have some advantage is crossing at a higher point. You would effectively turn the CBM-170 plus sub into a 3-way system, with each sub and each CM-170 being co-located and therefore eliminating any mis-localization issue having the sub reproducing frequencies up to 200Hz, because they would be emitting by the same main speakers location.

On the other hand, if you cross at 200Hz with a single sub, you would be depriving the L and R main of some of the ambient cues that contributes to correct stereo imaging in the mid-bass region, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish.

Mazeppa
04-10-2017, 03:30 PM
Yeah, I had wondered if there was enough physical separation between drivers in the F8 to get any noticeable stereo separation.

Exactly, don't want to cross subs much, if any above 80Hz, unless in a true stereo configuration.

I believe it's time to quit overthinking this and order an L12.

Thanks for the feedback, bro.

davef
04-10-2017, 05:11 PM
Were they close to 1/2 the cost of a dual F8, I would have 2 single F8's in a heartbeat.

My application is 2.1 for music only in a small listening space. CBM 170-SE's have been ordered.
External crossover(s) via Marchand XM-1 modules (LR 24db) are available to me.

Good transient response and higher usable crossover points of the F8 interest me, but I am unclear if I can make good use of said higher crossover points.

Can anyone tell me what frequency bass content usually goes from mono to stereo in recorded music?
Late 60's/early 70's rock&roll is my main jam.
If the answer is say, 100Hz or less then stereo content is being lost crossing a single F8 at 200Hz is my quandary.

Space/fiscal constraints limit me to a single sub placed between the mains. An L12 is my backup plan if I can't satisfy myself that I can well utilize the higher crossover point available from the F8.

I have made inquiry to Rythmik as to the feasibility of modifying an F8 to two separate 8"'s in the stock enclosure and am awaiting further response to my question.

Hi Mazeppa,

You are misunderstanding a few important issues here. With speakers like our CBM-170's that can handle being run full range and are essentially flat to 80Hz, you will never want to cross higher than 80Hz. There is an audible disadvantage to crossing higher as frequencies above 80Hz become localized to the subwoofer and this will completely throw off imaging and soundstage presentation.

Secondly, it is not that bass content is recorded in monaural - it is the fact that bass wavelengths are extremely long (80Hz wavelength is ~ 14ft) such that a listener would not actually hear any stereo separation - thus there is really no point in "stereo bass". Bass as defined at anything below 100Hz.

Recording engineers typically keep anything below 100Hz as monaural or "centered" - meaning the exact same signal is fed into both the left and right stereo channels so that the image is centered.

The reason for the option of using a very high crossover point on the F8 is so that people using tiny satellite speakers can cross to a high performance compact sub without ending up with a hole in their in-room frequency response. This is not an issue with any of our products ;)

MusicHead
04-10-2017, 05:21 PM
What he said!! Like I wrote, Dave elaborated much better ;)

I am very happy with the L12. YMMV, as they say, but for the price, it is a giant killer, just like the CMT-340 is.

Mazeppa
04-11-2017, 02:51 PM
Finally got my head where it needed to be on this deal. 80Hz it is.

Interesting to hear that running the 170's full range is no real detriment to them.
Cool, forget the high pass from an external crossover to the 170's.
My 3.1, all active crossover system taught me that while it could be sublime, all in all simpler is better.

Dave,
You know, I've never seen a breakdown by frequency of typical audio terminology for ranges.
Now I know 0-100 for bass, what are the numbers that you, being a speaker designer, use for mid-bass, mid & treble?

MusicHead had me pretty well squared away on all this.
I ordered an L12 yesterday. Dina gave me the 5% off even though my 170's were ordered some 8 days or so ago.

Wow, I haven't even heard an Ascend speaker yet, but I'm ready to start telling my friends about y'all.

Jack1949
04-11-2017, 05:17 PM
... I've never seen a breakdown by frequency of typical audio terminology for ranges.
Now I know 0-100 for bass, what are the numbers that you, being a speaker designer, use for mid-bass, mid & treble? ...


Here is an Interactive Frequency Chart that may help answer your question.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Jack

Mazeppa
04-17-2017, 06:43 AM
Thanks for the link, Jack.

I've probably strayed sufficiently from the F8 to move myself to more applicable (to my equipment)
threads.

Appreciate the help, fellas.

jpmc
08-21-2018, 03:09 AM
I believe when most people refer to the "speed" of a speaker or a subwoofer, they are unknowingly referring to transient response. They do not mean how "fast" the woofer is moving or how fast it can move, but how quickly that woofer can come to a full stop and start. This is no myth or fallacy, and is easily measured and is often quite audible. Low mass drivers in combination with low inductance and powerful motor systems = greater transient accuracy. Add to this Direct Servo - which further improves transient accuracy.

Ribbon and electrostatic speakers have exceptionally accurate transients - and as such, it is indeed important to try and extend that to the subwoofer as well (at least as best as is possible as no sub can match these speakers).

There is a reason so many electrostatic and ribbon speaker owners are using Rythmik subs or have been pointed towards Rythmik.

The F8 is an incredibly articulate subwoofer.

Dave,

Do you still use this sub in your setup? I am considering this model for my Sierra 2 setup but I’m wondering if it might not have enough output for my room.

My living room is in a way an open concept setup. While my main listening area is about 15x10, I often move around the whole kitchen area and would love to be able to hear a nice full rich bass setup throughout.

My other consideration is the F12 setup but the footprint is a bit larger leading to a tighter to fit in my area.

davef
08-22-2018, 02:48 PM
Dave,

Do you still use this sub in your setup? I am considering this model for my Sierra 2 setup but I’m wondering if it might not have enough output for my room.

My living room is in a way an open concept setup. While my main listening area is about 15x10, I often move around the whole kitchen area and would love to be able to hear a nice full rich bass setup throughout.

My other consideration is the F12 setup but the footprint is a bit larger leading to a tighter to fit in my area.

Yes, I am still using dual F8 subs with a set of our ribbon towers in my home -- and I absolutely LOVE this setup. These are in a very wide open space (family room + kitchen)

jpmc
08-22-2018, 07:24 PM
Yes, I am still using dual F8 subs with a set of our ribbon towers in my home -- and I absolutely LOVE this setup. These are in a very wide open space (family room + kitchen)

This is a tough decision. The price difference between the F12 and the F8 is negligible.

I like the footprint of the F8 but I’m concerned one of them might not be enough.

Decisions decisions.

davef
08-24-2018, 12:28 AM
This is a tough decision. The price difference between the F12 and the F8 is negligible.

I like the footprint of the F8 but I’m concerned one of them might not be enough.

Decisions decisions.

If going with a single sub in this large space, a single F8 will not cut it.

N Boros
08-26-2018, 07:29 AM
Not to rush a decision, but the F8 appears like it will be discontinued. Brian and Enrico have both mentioned this over in the Rythmik AVS thread. So if you do decide to go with an F8, you might want to act quickly.

jimb
09-11-2018, 11:33 AM
Thanks for the heads up on this. I have one F8 with a pair of Lunas as my main "TV" system, and stand-alone S2s in the bedroom. This alert triggered me to get another F8 while I can, so I'll have the option to use a pair of them, later. In the meantime, I will be moving Luna+F8 from main TV to bedroom, and S2s to main TV with the new F8.

jimb
09-15-2018, 12:17 PM
When I was considering what would be the best fit for a sub for my new Lunas, I spent a bit of time doing careful output curve comparisons of Rythmik subs. I found this summary table on the Rythmik home page very helpful in assessing the 'loss' in using the F8 versus something else, like the L12, for my purposes. Read the whole thing, carefully. It was an easy conclusion that I was not going to be missing out with the F8 vs an L12, or likely even vs an F12. It also didn't hurt that the F8 was on sale. :)

1661

SunByrne
09-15-2018, 12:58 PM
If going with a single sub in this large space, a single F8 will not cut it.

I think you're in more L22 territory. I have an L22 and it's terrific.

jpmc
09-27-2018, 06:05 PM
I’d like to take he plunge on an F8, but I would think that if it were being discontinued there would be a sale going on.

jimb
09-28-2018, 01:54 PM
They are definitely being discountinued. They were on sale not long ago, even here. I don't know if Ascend has any latitude on that now. If not, you could try contacting Rythmik, directly, regarding your current options (B-stock, different finishes, whatever).

jpmc
09-29-2018, 09:00 AM
Looking at the specs, it looks like I wouldn’t be able to use the F8 since it does not take Hi level inputs.

My preamplifier (Belles Aria) has only has one set of pre outputs (currently being used for my amplifier) and a set of mon and bypass outs. Not sure if those could be used for the sub.

Can anyone chime in?

jimb
09-29-2018, 11:31 AM
Yes, it needs a single input, not a stereo pair, though this is true for many (most?) of their models. It sounds like you want the sub to do full crossover duties - inputs and outputs. If so, you'll have to look at the amps of the various subs to find this feature. One example could be the F12 with an A370PEQ amp, NOT the standard A370PEQ3.

From their web site:
"The standard amplifier is A370PEQ3 (370WRMS PEQ). The quickguide of the A370PEQ3 amplifier for sealed subs can be found here [bad link]. A370PEQ3 amps do not have high pass filter RCA outputs. But it does have dedicated LFE inputs allowing for easy integration of a 2-ch-plus-HT system setup. A370PEQ amplifiers are available for those who still need high pass filter (or HPF) RCA outputs."

Check with Ascend or Rythmik for detailed confirmations.